Freedom, Justice and Democracy RE:Egypt

Which person or group supports freedom, justice and democracy in Egypt


  • Total voters
    15

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
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The Egyptian military now runs Egypt until free and fair elections are held in the near future. Cool!

Millions of people have flooded into Tahrir Square as people are laughing, singing and dancing in the streets. History has been made today.

We shall see.

So then... it is done. Let's go back a little. You were saying you want an Egypt that will not stand-by and watch Israel push the Palestinians around.

If you were the next ruler of Egypt... what does that mean the next time the Israelis and Palestinians are rocking and rolling all over the Gaza Strip. What would your response be?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
113,278
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We shall see.

So then... it is done. Let's go back a little. You were saying you want an Egypt that will not stand-by and watch Israel push the Palestinians around.

If you were the next ruler of Egypt... what does that mean the next time the Israelis and Palestinians are rocking and rolling all over the Gaza Strip. What would your response be?
Broken expensive toys and dead strewn about the Sinai.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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I couldn't resist.. :)

But interesting despite my trolling.......

“Lasting peace is gained as justice and democracy advance,” the former U.S. President declared. “By advancing freedom in the greater Middle East, we help end a cycle of dictatorship and radicalism that brings millions of people to misery and brings danger to our own people … In an arc of reform from Morocco to Jordan to Qatar, we are seeing elections and new protections for women and the stirrings of political pluralism. Many governments are realizing that theocracy and dictatorship do not lead to national greatness; they end in national ruin.”
“We must shake off decades of failed policy in the Middle East,” he added. “In the past, [we] have been willing to make a bargain to tolerate oppression for the sake of stability. Long-standing ties often led us to overlook the faults of local elites. Yet this bargain did not bring stability or make us safe. It merely bought time while problems festered and ideologies of violence took hold … No longer should we think tyranny is benign because it is temporarily convenient. Tyranny is never benign to its victims and our great democracies should oppose tyranny wherever it is found.”

Read more: Jonathan Kay: George W. Bush deserves credit for Egypt’s revolution | Full Comment | National Post
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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We shall see.

So then... it is done. Let's go back a little. You were saying you want an Egypt that will not stand-by and watch Israel push the Palestinians around.

If you were the next ruler of Egypt... what does that mean the next time the Israelis and Palestinians are rocking and rolling all over the Gaza Strip. What would your response be?
I like the question.

If I was the democratically elected leader of a free Egypt, my top priority would be Egyptians, not Israelis or Palestinians. My main focus would be reducing poverty and breaking down the barriers which prevent upward mobility. I would immediately start legal proceedings to freeze and seize the ill gotten assets of Egyptians who benefited from corruption and thievery which flourished during Mubarak's era. I would start a truth and reconciliation process to heal the many open wounds resulting from 30+ years of oppression and injustice. Tell the truth, you get amnesty from criminal prosecution. Lie or keep silent and you'd be punished to the full extent of the law.

A war with Israel or anyone else would not improve the lives of Egyptians. Instead it would result in an unacceptable level of suffering and would be unlikely to succeed. I would speak out against Israel, but maintain a passive/defensive military posture. I would try to be a good neighbor and respect the peace agreement while Israel does the same. I would encourage Egyptians to welcome all tourists from all countries including Israel. I would take all measures possible to ensure the safety and security of all tourists, including Israelis.

As per the peace agreement, Egypt cannot deploy more than a minimal number of soldiers and police in the Sinai. However I would immediately open the gates of Gaza to the free flow of humanitarian aid and encourage trade. It would be political suicide for any Egyptian leader to continue to assist Israeli crimes against humanity in Gaza like Mubarak did. I would lift restrictions on Gazans traveling to or through Egypt. Gazans would be treated like any other foreigner entering Egypt.

I am a non-violent humanist. I am against war, even covert proxy ones. I would continue to strictly enforce the arms embargo with Gaza and make legitimate efforts to end the arms smuggling into Gaza, motivated by an interest in peace and stability. I would not want a Palestinian uprising next door. I would respect Egypt's peace agreement with Israel. If the Israeli's were unhappy that Gaza was getting humanitarian aid and trade through Egypt, then as occupiers of Gaza, Israel has the right to seize control of Gaza's side of the border and restrict aid, goods and services as they see fit. The blood would be on their hands, not mine. I'd complain and try to embarrass Israel into ending their war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that's about it.

At some point though a free Egypt would have to deal with Israeli war crimes and crimes. I would consider punitive economic/diplomatic sanctions and restricting trade. A real SOB, might covertly assist arms smuggling operations in a way that could not be traced back conclusively as overt Egyptian support for Gaza militants. However, I'm not a militant SOB. As a non-violent humanist, I would continue to crack down on arms smuggling, even if I agreed with the Palestinian cause. That's me personally. I doubt the future democratically elected leader of Egypt would be as squeamish as I would be regarding arms smuggling or fighting a covert proxy war. There is a chance that Egypt might eventually join the proxy war against Israel at some point in the future.

Anyway those aren't near term threats. IMO, Israel still has lots of time to finish the wall they are building along Egypt's border, regardless of who wins the next election. Even if the Muslim Brotherhood won a majority, I doubt they would squander such an opportunity to turn Egypt into a model Theocracy in order to start a war with Israel. It would still be years before even a Muslim Brotherhood led theocracy could shift its main focus from changing the political landscape inside Egypt to its relationship with Israel. Yes they would be very vocal and might even saber rattle a little, but I doubt even they would take action against Israel without being extremely confident of success. I'd assume that every weapon system Egypt owns which originates from the US could be remotely disabled by Israel. Taking on Israel would require getting rid of every American system and building up a brand new military capability almost from scratch.

As you can see, other than reducing the disease and malnutrition resulting from Israel's cruel humanitarian aid blockade, I don't predict much to change in Gaza as a result of a free Egypt.

The greatest immediate threat to Israel from this revolt would have been if the army cracked down on the protesters as Israel wanted. Even if the military won round one, they'd eventually get their butts kicked as front line soldiers switched sides. Egypt could have ended up in a 1980's Lebanon civil war anarchy scenario where competing factions supported by outside interests were busy fighting each other as arms flowed freely into Egypt and Gaza. Its a good thing for Israel that their calls to support Mubarak went unheeded. I sincerely believe the current situation is the best possible outcome for Israel's immediate security. The status quo was unsustainable. Now it will be years before Israel has to worry about a threat from Egypt.

In the long term, Egypt could be a serious threat to Israel's security, depending on the situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories. Egypt by itself is no serious threat to Israel. Egyptians have more in common with Turkey, than Iran. If Israel continues its ethnic cleansing, war crimes and crimes against humanity, I'd expect Egypt to coordinate their actions with other Arab/Muslim nations, and possibly take a leading role.

The real threat to Israel will come when Saudis eventually overthrow their dictator. Saudis are far crazier than the Iranians and they will have money and power.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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One thing you can be sure of is that the muslim theocrats are NOT interested in a free and democratic Egypt. Or anywhere else for that matter.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Egypt should attack Israel at the very first chance and crush it beyond recognition. Anything else will be suicide. Israel has demonstrated to the world that they are ruthless barbarian murderers. They cannot ever be trusted and nothing good for the world will ever or could ever come from that collection of psycopathic criminals.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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DB: Egypt wouldn't stand a chance against Israel. Israel approved all the arms the US sold Egypt because they were on condition that Israel maintained a significant military advantage. Part of that advantage would likely include ECM disable codes that the US builds into most weapon systems so they can't be used against the US or its key allies (Israel). Any arms Egypt posesses with a "Made in the USA" stamp would be worse than useless in a war with Israel.

But lets assume for a moment Egypt had the means to destroy Israel. Israel would resort to the "Sampson Option" and vaporize Cairo and other cities in the Middle East.

The only solution which doesn't lead to Mutual Assured Destruction is to convince Israel's leaders to respect international laws and fundamental human rights by diplomatic and economic means. Israel would be forced to reconsider its treatment of Palestinians if they found themselves facing the same measures currently employed against Iran and North Korea.
 
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earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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The Egyptians will finally find out what freedom really stands for as their country is taken over by radicals
I'm 99% certain you are wrong.

As long as Egypt ends up with free and fair elections by peaceful means in the relatively near future, most Egyptians will vote for who ever is most likely to end rampant cronyism and lead them out of poverty. The Muslim Brotherhood will appeal to the devoutly religious, but most Egyptians have moderate viewpoints.

The only way the Muslim Brotherhood and extremists could have come to power in Egypt would be through violent revolution. So far that hasn't happened, and while Egypt's transition to a free democracy remains peaceful, the secular and moderates whio initiated this revolution will maintain the upper hand. The MB has almost no chance of winning a majority in free and fair elections. At best they might hold the balance of power in a minority government. But they'll never get a chance to turn Egypt into a Theocracy. The majority of Egyptians will make sure that doesn't happen.

By the way, I predicted that the revolt in Tunisia would spread to Egypt here on this forum the day before the first Egyptian protests:

If you want to talk about countries with unpopular governments on the verge of destroying themselves...

...Or how about Egypt ? Its a military dictatorship where popular opposition parties are banned. If it wasn't for the billions the US gives in bribe money (keep peace with Israel) and arms to support the dictator, Egyptians would have gotten rid of Mubarak years ago.

I bet the Saudis and the Egyptians are watching the events unfold in Tunisia very closely.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/i...farting-around-iran-nukes-37.html#post1373983
 
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darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Google's Revolution Factory; Alliance of Youth Movements: Color Revolution 2.0


Screenshot of Movements.org Tony Cartalucci, Contributing Writer
Activist Post

In 2008, the Alliance of Youth Movements held its inaugural summit in New York City. Attending this summit was a combination of State Department staff, Council on Foreign Relations members, former National Security staff, Department of Homeland Security advisers, and a myriad of representatives from American corporations and mass media organizations including AT&T, Google, Facebook, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, and MTV.(pdf).

One might suspect such a meeting of representatives involved in US economic, domestic and foreign policy, along with the shapers of public opinion in the mass media would be convening to talk about America's future and how to facilitate it. Joining these policy makers, was an army of "grassroots" activists that would "help" this facilitation.



Among them was a then little known group called "April 6" from Egypt. These Facebook "savvy" Egyptians would later meet US International Crisis Group trustee Mohamed ElBaradei at the Cairo airport in Februrary 2010 and spend the next year campaigning and protesting on his behalf in his bid to overthrow the government of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

The Alliance of Youth Movements mission statement claims it is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to helping grassroots activists to build their capacity and make a greater impact on the world. While this sounds fairly innocuous at first, even perhaps positive, upon examining those involved in "Movements.org," a dark agenda is revealed of such nefarious intent it is almost difficult to believe.

Movement.org is officially partnered with the US Department of State and Columbia Law School. Its corporate sponsors include Google, Pepsi, and the Omnicon Group, all listed as members of the globocrat Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). CBS News is a sponsor and listed on the globocrat Chatham House's corporate membership list. Other sponsors include Facebook, YouTube, Meetup, Howcast, National Geographic, MSNBC, GenNext, and the Edelman public relations firm.

Movement.org's "team" includes Co-Founder Jared Cohen, a CFR member, Director of Google Ideas, and a former State Department planning staff member under both Condoleezza Rice and Hilary Clinton.

Founding Movements.org with Cohen is Jason Liebman of Howcast Media which works with mega-corporate conglomerates like Proctor & Gamble, Kodak, Staples, Ford, and government agencies such as the US State Depar
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
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Ontario
I really hope this puts an end to the violence in Egypt and in the end Egyptians get a gov't that looks out for them.

It looks like Egypt is already off to a good start...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12440138

...you posted about three miles of proof here.
True, and yet you fail to grasp it.

Why would I have to do any work at all?
My point exactly and you still cling to absurdity. How sad.

Somehow, I doubt his opinion is completely altruistic regarding Egyptians or Arabs in general.
But can you counter his points?

I guess not, since all you did was dismiss him.

That would be history repeating itself, successfully.
That's because you are not alone.
 
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darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
DB: Egypt wouldn't stand a chance against Israel. Israel approved all the arms the US sold Egypt because they were on condition that Israel maintained a significant military advantage. Part of that advantage would likely include ECM disable codes that the US builds into most weapon systems so they can't be used against the US or its key allies (Israel). Any arms Egypt posesses with a "Made in the USA" stamp would be worse than useless in a war with Israel.

But lets assume for a moment Egypt had the means to destroy Israel. Israel would resort to the "Sampson Option" and vaporize Cairo and other cities in the Middle East.

The only solution which doesn't lead to Mutual Assured Destruction is to convince Israel's leaders to respect international laws and fundamental human rights by diplomatic and economic means. Israel would be forced to reconsider its treatment of Palestinians if they found themselves facing the same measures currently employed against Iran and North Korea.

Of course that is correct from the hardware perspective.
 

Dixie Cup

Senate Member
Sep 16, 2006
6,028
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I see my point was to subtle for you to understand. OK I will remake my point and dumb it down just for you.

I was responding to Colpy`s point that the Muslim Brotherhood must not be allowed to participate in free and fair elections. My point was that the elections would not be free or fair if foreigners dictated to Egyptians who is allowed to participate in their elections. Colpy and yourself, either don`t understand what free and fair elections mean, or you don`t support Egyptians having free and fair elections.

Gez, where did I say that I was against "free elections"? Don't read deep though do you? I said "Beware of the Muslim Brotherhood" period. That's all!!

Gez!
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
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I see my point was to subtle for you to understand. OK I will remake my point and dumb it down just for you.

I was responding to Colpy`s point that the Muslim Brotherhood must not be allowed to participate in free and fair elections. My point was that the elections would not be free or fair if foreigners dictated to Egyptians who is allowed to participate in their elections. Colpy and yourself, either don`t understand what free and fair elections mean, or you don`t support Egyptians having free and fair elections.

Gez, where did I say that I was against "free elections"? Don't read deep though do you? I said "Beware of the Muslim Brotherhood" period. That's all!!

Gez!

Dixie, I never said the Muslim Brotherhood should not be allowed to participate in elections.......quite the opposite.

I said that, for the good of the Egyptian people, they must not be allowed to gain power in Egypt.

But, if that is what Egyptians want.....lunatic Islamist leaders, repression, and war with Israel......that is their choice.

If the Muslim Brotherhood comes to power, there will never be another free election.

Look at the PA.......remember that Hamas is closely connected with the Brotherhood....

Palestinian election plan runs into trouble with Hamas
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Feb 17 19:58

Egypt's Workers Revolt; This isn't about Mubarak

By: StingRay


"After Mahalla in 2008, the first weaknesses in the regime appeared," says Gamal Eid of the Arabic Network for Human Rights Information. "Nothing was the same in Egypt after that." ("Egypt's Cauldron of Revolt", Anand Gopal, Foreign Policy)
Compare this story to the narrative that appears in the US media, that the revolution was triggered by Twitter-happy "twenty somethings" text messaging their friends while buzzing around Cairo. It's utter nonsense. This revolution has working class roots, which is why the establishment press refuses to explain what's really going on. Any talk about "class" is Verboten in US media because it tends to reflect poorly on the robber barons who created the greatest extremes in inequality in the history of the world.