Freedom, Justice and Democracy RE:Egypt

[ironsides]

And I expect we will still be involved with Egypt for many years to come. As to what the Egyptian Army does with that money once Mubarak leaves depends on how much other organizations have influenced them. So far from what my sources tell me they are leaning towards the Army and the people. Canada is doing no less than what the other states are doing and that is watch President Obama do his thing and end it.

 

[Dixie Cup]

If you don't like the Muslim Brotherhood, then I guess you shouldn't vote for them. BTW Are you Egyptian?

What a "brilliant" come-back eao - Colpy is right - we better watch out if the Mulsil Brotherhood takes power. They want to destroy Isreal and establish an Islamic state. What they say in Arabic and what they state in English are two very different things! Look it up! Educate yourself!

The US and other countries are now reaping what they've sowed (sowen/sowin?? whatever) over the past 30+ years. Supporting dictators has the tendency to backfire and who knows what's going to happen. While the general population of Egypt may want democracy, they must be extremely careful who they get to replace the "tyrant." If the MB get in, the population will not be any better off than they are now. Chaos breeds "opportunity" for those who have less than honorable intentions. I worry for the Egyptians and, in turn, for Isreal and the rest of the world. This is a VERY serious situation that will have far-reaching affects.

JMO

"Arab freedom and democracy is a potential threat long term to Israel" states eao 'cuse me?? And of course eao also seems to believe that Isreal is to blame for "everything" that goes wrong in the ME!

Gosh, don't you ever tire of rhetoric?? Honestly? Sigh

I don't understand such hatred of Isreal - I really don't. People keep repeating how unjust and horrible Isreal is but I just don't see it! Is it perfect? No, of course not but you can say that of ANY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY! Having to, day after day, defend yourself against aniliation means making mistakes and they have laws and the Courts to make sure there are ramifications of wrong-doing. Unfortunately, you can't say that in, oh lets see.....Iran! The Hypocrisy is absolutely incredible!!

I agree that US policy sucks big time and me thinks that the hens have come home to roost because of past (and current) actions.

The US population at large needs to wake up and decide the direction their government takes from here on in.

Canada is no exception and also needs to wake up and start making a concerted effort to engage their politicians and tell them what is acceptable and not acceptable! Bitching and complaining about the actions of government when individuals either refuse or are too lazy to vote doesn't make things better. WE are the government and must dictate what they do and it's each individual's responsibility to become informed and ask questions!

In the States, the whole system needs revamping and the Americans must each take a stand. One example I can think of off-hand is that Obama promised "Change" but NO ONE questionned what that change was.....the media is also implicit in this as well also refusing to ask the hard questions. Everyone assumed, (I guess) that Obama's "change" meant change from Bush... but was it really?? I say, never assume anything!! Question, question, question - always!

The whole Middle East situation should be a wake-up call for us all.

JMO

 

[CDNBear]

How many threads do we need on the same topic?

Or is this just the new spam from the old anti Joo anti American spammer?

 

[earth_as_one]

Oh I do get it... you don't.
The US Govt supports Egypt... present tense.
The US Govt is supporting Egypt.
How silly.
Ok. So should we fly C-5's overhead and push out bales of money?
Nor should we.
Is Canada? No... I guess you must be supporting an oppressive regime then eh?
Not so sure about that. But if we do end up giving a pro-democracy movement in Egypt cash or arms I am sure you will be the first person in here complaining.
It is very clear that you are unaware of how financial aid between nations works.

A person walks up to you and says...
"What would be more beneficial... $100 Million to your cause... or $1 Million to your cause?"
Your answer is?
Here is a hint...
$100 Million > $1 Million

Have a nice day!

What I suggested is precisely what US Congress is now considering.

Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs, the body that oversees American foreign aid, warned Egypt on Wednesday that unless President Mubarak steps down and the violence stops, Egypt will lose its financial assistance from the United States...

How Fast Can Obama or Congress Cut Off Aid to Mubarak? | Mother Jones

 

[DaSleeper]

How many threads do we need on the same topic?

Or is this just the new spam from the old anti Joo anti American spammer?

What's good for China or Herald should be good for these thread......."""Merge"""

 

[earth_as_one]

In absolute terms, the US is the biggest donor nation.

(The US is to the right of the EC, it didn't come out in the cut and paste)

Only I was not referring to the absolute value.

Canada's population and economy is about 1/10 the US. So you are saying that in order for Canadians to be as generous as the US, we'd have to donate as much money as the US or ten times as much per person? According to your logic, even if all the citizens of Luxembourg liquidated all their assets and give up all their worldly belongings and donated the entire wealth of the country to charity and everyone became monks, they would still not be as charitable as the US.

Obviously something is wrong with your logic.

In order to compare the relative generosity between countries fairly, you must factor in the relative size of their economies. That measurement is expressed aid a % of their GDP. By that measurement the US lags behind many countries including Canada.

I`d go even further than that. US aid to prop up brutal oppressive dictators like Mubarak isn`t improving the lives of Egyptians and IMO shouldn`t even count as aid.

 

[darkbeaver]

You're right DaSleeper we should have just two threads. Those who support freedom and human rights universally and those who support the international bankers and their hired pricks like Israel and the USA. That would simplify control of the discussion by the vested internationalist interests. In the end though it is just another desperate attempt of the frightened fascist elements to save the skins of the corporate criminals and their fanatic godwhack mob of conscienceless meat puppets. So you go ahead and try to make things easier for evil. It won't do you any good in the end, and the end is fast approaching.

 

[DaSleeper]

You're right DaSleeper we should have just two threads. Those who support freedom and human rights universally and those who support the international bankers and their hired pricks like Israel and the USA. That would simplify control of the discussion by the vested internationalist interests. In the end though it is just another desperate attempt of the frightened fascist elements to save the skins of the corporate criminals and their fanatic godwhack mob of conscienceless meat puppets. So you go ahead and try to make things easier for evil. It won't do you any good in the end, and the end is fast approaching.

Three threads on the same subject started in a 24 hr period by the same person is spamming...and I'm not counting the ones started by others...cough...;-) on that same subject...."Single track" comes to mind or "One trick pony"???

 

[captain morgan]

In absolute terms, the US is the biggest donor nation.



Canada's population and economy is about 1/10 the US. So you are saying that in order for Canadians to be as generous as the US, we'd have to donate as much money as the US or ten times as much per person? According to your logic, even if all the citizens of Luxembourg liquidated all their assets and give up all their worldly belongings and donated the entire wealth of the country to charity and everyone became monks, they would still not be as charitable as the US.

Obviously something is wrong with your logic.

In order to compare the relative generosity between countries fairly, you must factor in the relative size of their economies. That measurement is expressed aid a % of their GDP. By that measurement the US lags behind many countries including Canada.

I`d go even further than that. US aid to prop up brutal oppressive dictators like Mubarak isn`t improving the lives of Egyptians and IMO shouldn`t even count as aid.

Aren't you the same guy that is always pissing and moaning about "oppressive imperialistic" regimes meddling in ME business? Yet here you are insinuating that the rest of the world pony up the dough to subsidize the inalienable rights of Egyptians (or Palestinians for that matter).

Here's news flash for ya: Democracy ain't cheap and more often than not, the cost is paid for in blood... That said, if you think that you can talk the talk, you had better be damn well prepared to walk the walk.

 

[earth_as_one]

If you don't like the Muslim Brotherhood, then I guess you shouldn't vote for them. BTW Are you Egyptian?

What a "brilliant" come-back eao - Colpy is right - we better watch out if the Mulsil Brotherhood takes power. They want to destroy Isreal and establish an Islamic state. What they say in Arabic and what they state in English are two very different things! Look it up! Educate yourself!....

I see my point was to subtle for you to understand. OK I will remake my point and dumb it down just for you.

I was responding to Colpy`s point that the Muslim Brotherhood must not be allowed to participate in free and fair elections. My point was that the elections would not be free or fair if foreigners dictated to Egyptians who is allowed to participate in their elections. Colpy and yourself, either don`t understand what free and fair elections mean, or you don`t support Egyptians having free and fair elections.

Free and fair elections in Egypt ideally means that all Egyptians can participate and vote freely for whoever they want. The goal free and fair elections would be to create a new government which accurately reflects the will of the Egyptian people.

Egyptians revolted because their elections were neither free nor fair and the government represented the will of foreigners and a small minority of Egyptians.

Since a substantial number of Egyptians support the Muslim Brotherhood, this group`s participation in Egyptian elections is crucial to free and fair elections. If foreigners manipulated upcoming Egyptian elections and blocked any group from participating including the Muslim Brotherhood, then Egyptians would likely find themselves back in the middle of another revolt.

Anyway its a mute point, because the Muslim Brotherhood is involved in power transfer negotiations whether you like it or not. I don`t support the Muslim Brotherhood and I would not want to see them control Egypt. I`d rather see Egypt controlled by a secular competent government which encourages business investment and tourism.

BTW, I am well aware of who the Muslim brotherhood is and they aren`t the boogieman. While Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, they aren`t the Muslim Brotherhood. Turkey`s ruling AK Party is also an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and they have close military ties with Israel. Egypt`s Muslim Brotherhood represents a fairly diverse spectrum of political and religious philosophies. They build hospitals and clinics, offers scholarships for students and controls professional associations for doctors and lawyers. I suggest you read up about them:
America's new to-do list starts with Muslim Brotherhood - The Globe and Mail

 

[darkbeaver]

Three threads on the same subject started in a 24 hr period by the same person is spamming...and I'm not counting the ones started by others...cough...;-) on that same subject...."Single track" comes to mind or "One trick pony"???

The subject is thee subject, the most important pivotal event of your life and mine and that of every person who sucks air on this planet weather they know it or not. In that light I think there is no such thing as too many threads. Maybe you have an agenda, not that I mind one bit, but if you do it is usually considered honest to declare it, rather than childish complaining about too much opportunity to express thought and feelings about such a paramount event. This is the one that will change the world and for the better.

 

[DaSleeper]

The subject is thee subject, the most important pivotal event of your life and mine and that of every person who sucks air on this planet weather they know it or not. In that light I think there is no such thing as too many threads. when the planet literally hangs on just one rotten piece thread. Maybe you have an agenda, not that I mind one bit, but if you do it is usually considered honest to declare it, rather than childish complaining about too much opportunity to express thought and feelings about such a paramount event. This is the one that will change the world and for the better.

For you...that would be if Israel is wiped off the map...We don't need multiple threads to know that....I fully realized that years ago after reading only a few of yours and EAO's posts..
Another thing that comes to mind when reading these threads is tunnel vision....

 

[earth_as_one]

Aren't you the same guy that is always pissing and moaning about "oppressive imperialistic" regimes meddling in ME business? Yet here you are insinuating that the rest of the world pony up the dough to subsidize the inalienable rights of Egyptians (or Palestinians for that matter).

Here's news flash for ya: Democracy ain't cheap and more often than not, the cost is paid for in blood... That said, if you think that you can talk the talk, you had better be damn well prepared to walk the walk.

That`s not what I said, nor even close. This is from the first post in this thread:

...Egyptians and all people have a fundamental human right to choose their leader by a free and fair process which reflects accurately the will of the people. Elections are one way to achieve this.

Also everyone has a fundamental human right to peaceful assembly/protest and free speech.

US support for Mubarak in the form of military and economic aid is outside interference which kept this brutal oppressive dictator in power for decades. The Egyptian people have had enough and now they are standing up for themselves. The US can and should use their influence in Egypt to help the Egyptian people overthrow their dictator and have free and fair elections. To do this would not cost the Americans a cent or the life of a single American soldier. The US has the ability to get rid of Mubarak and help liberate the Egyptian people, simply by threatening to stopping the gravy train which keeps Mubarak in power. BTW, this is what the Obama administration appears to be doing behind the scenes.
How Fast Can Obama or Congress Cut Off Aid to Mubarak? | Mother Jones

I fully support the role the Obama administration appears to have played in managing this revolution in a way to reduce violence, chaos and vandalism. At the moment, it appears that the US has sided with the Egyptian people and is playing an active role behind the scenes to help Egypt become a true representative democracy. IMO, Americans should be proud that their country has played a crucial supportive role in this process and take some credit for the results.

I don't support the role the Harper administration appears to be playing. Their actions indicate they have sided with Mubarak, oppression and injustice against the Egyptian people, freedom and justice. It appears that Canada is playing an active role behind the scenes to push the US towards supporting Mubarak, injustice and oppression. IMO, Canadians should be ashamed of our leaders' support of tyranny.

 

[Nuggler]

Do you read your own link????

"between 1988 and 1992. "

Once again: Israel does not use torture.

Repeat a lie often enough and one begins to believe it.

 

[darkbeaver]

For you...that would be if Israel is wiped off the map...We don't need multiple threads to know that....I fully realized that years ago after reading only a few of yours and EAO's posts..
Another thing that comes to mind when reading these threads is tunnel vision....

Just suppose for a moment that I do not want Israel wiped off the map and that in reality factions other than the obvious haters of Israel like myself do want the ritual sacrifice of Israel and that this sacrifice will cement the zionists position as earths eternal victims for all time on this planet. Israels record of crimes against humanity are not imagined they have been very much orchestrated by those who know the value of the lost cause and the great lie. Wiping Israel off the map, literally, will do nothing to correct the perpetually obscured cause of those miseries. It is not the end of Israel that these elements want it is to escape global justice while they hide behind the misery of a totally defeated Israel. Israel is the giant strawman, a human shield for bankers. We are misinformed that Israels destruction will change the basic ages old design of global control. Tunnel vision is often mistaken for concentration isn't it?

 

[Nuggler]

I'm more concerned about the non denominational churches that have appeared out of no where in Canada that preach fear based politics rather than alleged Christianity.

Just imagine if those crackpots ever gained control in Ottawa. We might see our nation's wealth handed over to scam artists.

..........Like it's not already. If Herr Harpo of the bible thumping right, and Flatulance, who go kicked out of Ontario, are not scam artists, who are??

 

[earth_as_one]

Three threads on the same subject started in a 24 hr period by the same person is spamming...and I'm not counting the ones started by others...cough...;-) on that same subject...."Single track" comes to mind or "One trick pony"???

This thread is about Freedom, Justice and Democracy and Egypt. If you don't want to participate in this thread, feel free not to.

 

[captain morgan]

That`s not what I said, nor even close. I support the right of all nations to chose their government in free and fair elections without outside interference.

US support for Mubarak in the form of military and economic aid is outside interference which kept this brutal oppressive dictator in power for decades. The Egyptian people have had enough and now they are standing up for themselves. The US can and should use their influence in Egypt to help the Egyptian people overthrow their dictator and have free and fair elections.

The US has the ability to get rid of Mubarak and help liberate the Egyptian people, simply by threatening to stopping the gravy train which keeps Mubarak in power. BTW, this is what the Obama administration appears to be doing behind the scenes.
How Fast Can Obama or Congress Cut Off Aid to Mubarak? | Mother Jones

I fully support the role the Obama administration appears to have played in managing this revolution in a way to reduce violence, chaos and vandalism. At the moment, it appears that the US has sided with the Egyptian people and is playing an active role behind the scenes to help Egypt become a true representative democracy. IMO, Americans should be proud that their country has played a crucial supportive role in this process and take some credit for the results.

I don't support the role the Harper administration appears to be playing. Their actions indicate they have sided with Mubarak, oppression and injustice against the Egyptian people, freedom and justice. It appears that Canada is playing an active role behind the scenes to push the US towards supporting Mubarak, injustice and oppression. IMO, Canadians should be ashamed of our leaders' support of tyranny.

Read through what you've posted... Actually read it.

You want these nations to have independence without the intervention from foreign influences... Unless that intervention is in the form of dollars. Whats more, the demand for said cash (expressed by you as a "suggestion") will be on your terms only.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch my friend and in large part, much of the angst realized today in the Middle East has more to do with these nations (more accurately; their governing bodies) suckling at the teat of foreigners and growing dependent on it... You want democracy, freedoms and rights? You had better be prepared to earn those rights independently otherwise, you are merely exchanging one master for another.

 

[darkbeaver]

The thread is about Freedom, Justice and Democracy for the World.

 

[Just the Facts]

Christians have been evangelizing in Egypt for 2000 years and they are only 10% of the population. Seems they haven't been doing a good job.

Lol. That has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever read in my life. And I've read some doozies.