Freedom, Justice and Democracy RE:Egypt

[earth_as_one]

CM, I fully support US efforts to help Egyptians get rid of their dictator. Yes I am aware this is outside interference, just like decades of US support for this dictator was also outside interference. IMO, the US is helping clean up a mess they helped create and taking some responsibility for their actions in Egypt over the years.

IMO, Americans should be proud that their government is now playing an active role to help Egyptians gain freedom, justice and become a representative democracy which holds free and fair elections.

 

[Cliffy]

Lol. That has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever read in my life. And I've read some doozies.

Why thank you. It is good to know that I excel at something.

 

[darkbeaver]

Maybe you expect the salvation of both the USA and Egypt from the same event. Democracy and peace for Egypt means defeat and war for the USA, of biblical proportions I think. The sins of the fathers are always visited on their sons and there is no avoiding or modifying that old truism. They know that and that is why they will seek to undermine the will of the Egyptian people, which they are plainly already engaged in.

 

[earth_as_one]

NEWSFLASH!

Mubarak's entire government has just resigned. However Mubarak still remains president.
BBC News - Egypt unrest: shake-up in ruling NDP

 

[darkbeaver]

Egypt terminal Blast ~ gas supply to Israel stopped

There was a report yesterday of two US generals and one Israeli general arriving in Egypt. Already the pretense for suppression of the people is being manufactured .

 

[Johnny Utah]

Egypt terminal Blast ~ gas supply to Israel stopped

There was a report yesterday of two US generals and one Israeli general arriving in Egypt. Already the pretense for suppression of the people is being manufactured .

Withtout actually evidence it's just a report..

 

[darkbeaver]

Israeli Spy Arrest in Egypt Points to High Stakes for Washington and Tel Aviv
An amateur video showing the arrest in Egypt of an alleged spy belonging to the Israeli General Staff Reconnaissance Unit, the Sayeret Matkal, indicates how worried Tel Aviv is by the turmoil engulfing the Mubarak regime and suggests that attempts are underway by outside forces to destabilise the popular revolution.

Meanwhile, sabotage of a major Egyptian-Israeli gas pipeline early this morning (Saturday) by unknown bombers in the Northern Sinai town of El Arish could be the beginning of a campaign to destabilise Egypt and legitimate further foreign intervention in that country – intervention that would advantage US/Israeli attempts to salvage the regime that has so loyally served their interests, but which is now slipping from its control.

The video (1), which was aired by the Iranian channel Press TV (2), shows an unnamed man being led away by Egyptian military amid chanting anti-government protesters. There were reports that two Israeli personnel were initially apprehended by the protesters while travelling in a car amid the backdrop of violent clashes across the country’s capital, Cairo.

These incidents follows recent Israeli government statements that it is “following closely” the popular uprising in Egypt, which after 11 days of curfew-defying street rallies across the country, is threatening to topple the 30-year-old regime of US-backed Hosni Mubarak. Despite the regime’s best attempts to brutally beat the people of the streets, with stones, knives, guns and petrol bombs, the protest movement is standing strong and refuses to bow, indeed is getting stronger.

Only days ago, Israel was reported to have sent crowd-dispersal equipment to the beleaguered Mubarak dictatorship, which Tel Aviv, along with Washington, counts as an “important ally”.

And, according to Middle East Monitor, Israeli government sources say that the state of Israel has placed "all its capabilities" at the disposal of General Omar Suleiman, Mubarak’s recently appointed vice president and long-time Mossad collaborator, for the "protection of the regime in Egypt". (3) Suleiman is being touted in the Western media as Washington’s prescribed heir apparent in a post-Mubarak regime.

The bigger picture here is that Tel Aviv, and more importantly its sponsor Washington, are petrified by the threat being posed by Egypt’s uprising to their vital interests across the Middle East, North Africa and beyond. This explains the feverish diplomatic and military communications over the past week between these two capitals and Cairo. When you think about it, the intense communications from US president Obama and every senior administration official, the military aid assurances from Washington and Tel Aviv, the brazen meddling in the affairs of a supposedly sovereign state, and now apparently the involvement of secret agents, all speak of one thing: panic.

Israel is seeing, potentially, a key ally/collaborator – Egypt under Mubarak’s military apparatus – being lost in Tel Aviv’s prosecution of criminal war against the Palestinian people and its aggression towards Lebanon, Syria, Iran. Without its Egyptian partner-in-crime, Israel’s ability to wage war in the region is significantly blunted.Israeli Spy Arrest in Egypt Points to High Stakes for Washington and Tel Aviv

 

[Colpy]

I see my point was to subtle for you to understand. OK I will remake my point and dumb it down just for you.

I was responding to Colpy`s point that the Muslim Brotherhood must not be allowed to participate in free and fair elections. My point was that the elections would not be free or fair if foreigners dictated to Egyptians who is allowed to participate in their elections. Colpy and yourself, either don`t understand what free and fair elections mean, or you don`t support Egyptians having free and fair elections.

Free and fair elections in Egypt ideally means that all Egyptians can participate and vote freely for whoever they want. The goal free and fair elections would be to create a new government which accurately reflects the will of the Egyptian people.

Egyptians revolted because their elections were neither free nor fair and the government represented the will of foreigners and a small minority of Egyptians.

Since a substantial number of Egyptians support the Muslim Brotherhood, this group`s participation in Egyptian elections is crucial to free and fair elections. If foreigners manipulated upcoming Egyptian elections and blocked any group from participating including the Muslim Brotherhood, then Egyptians would likely find themselves back in the middle of another revolt.

Anyway its a mute point, because the Muslim Brotherhood is involved in power transfer negotiations whether you like it or not. I don`t support the Muslim Brotherhood and I would not want to see them control Egypt. I`d rather see Egypt controlled by a secular competent government which encourages business investment and tourism.

BTW, I am well aware of who the Muslim brotherhood is and they aren`t the boogieman. While Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, they aren`t the Muslim Brotherhood. Turkey`s ruling AK Party is also an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and they have close military ties with Israel. Egypt`s Muslim Brotherhood represents a fairly diverse spectrum of political and religious philosophies. They build hospitals and clinics, offers scholarships for students and controls professional associations for doctors and lawyers. I suggest you read up about them:
America's new to-do list starts with Muslim Brotherhood - The Globe and Mail

First of all, don't misquote me. I did not say, and have never said that ANYONE should be excluded from any Egyptian election.

But the Muslim Brotherhood is to be treated with caution by ANYONE with an IQ larger than their shoe size. Turkey is a wonderful example, her relationship with Israel slipping fast, her traditional secular society threatened, her most promising new love being the lunatic idiots that lead Iran. Turkey is starting down the slippery slope to an Islamic state.........

Of course, all that would make you perfectly happy.....all the Islamists getting together for one giant bloodletting in Israel....as so clearly called for in the Hadith....

 

[CUBert]

You like using the word Islamic state as a negative connotation, isn't Saudi Arabia an Islamic state, completely supported by USA ? In fact, the U.S arms the Islamic state.

 

[Colpy]

You like using the word Islamic state as a negative connotation, isn't Saudi Arabia an Islamic state, completely supported by USA ? In fact, the U.S arms the Islamic state.

Absolutely........and disgracefully.

Saudi Arabia has the fortune to have huge oil reserves.......the lifeblood of civilization.

Perhaps we should just have stayed there in 1992.

 

[darkbeaver]

Who is "we"?

US reverses stance, says Mubarak must STAY!!!

Meet the new boss same as the old boss excepting a cold shower and the closest of shaves. Are we to witness the miracle of resurrection?

 

[earth_as_one]

First of all, don't misquote me. I did not say, and have never said that ANYONE should be excluded from any Egyptian election.

But the Muslim Brotherhood is to be treated with caution by ANYONE with an IQ larger than their shoe size. Turkey is a wonderful example, her relationship with Israel slipping fast, her traditional secular society threatened, her most promising new love being the lunatic idiots that lead Iran. Turkey is starting down the slippery slope to an Islamic state.........

Of course, all that would make you perfectly happy.....all the Islamists getting together for one giant bloodletting in Israel....as so clearly called for in the Hadith....

I did misquote you. Sorry. You said this:

The Muslim Brotherhood can not be allowed to seize power in Egypt...

Fair enough.

My understanding is that the Muslim Brotherhood encompasses a wide range of political thought.

They condemned attacks against Coptic Christians
Muslim Brotherhood Condemns Attacks against Coptic Christians in Egypt | Islamopedia Online

I found their website here:
Ikhwanweb :: The Muslim Brotherhood Official English Website

They are no friend of Zionist Israel:
Ikhwanweb :: The Muslim Brotherhood Official English Website

Also I don't agree with mixing religion and politics. If I was Egyptian I wouldn't vote for them.

 

[darkbeaver]

Absolutely........and disgracefully.

Saudi Arabia has the fortune to have huge oil reserves.......the lifeblood of civilization.

Perhaps we should just have stayed there in 1992.

So Mr History what sustained civilization before the age of oil? Three guesses only.

Now the US rereversed themselves with CNN reporting Mr Wisner has no official capacity. So looks like there's some serious discontinuity among the stakeholders and who does Wisner speak for?

 

[petros]

and who does Wisner speak for?

Wisner.

 

[gopher]

."""Merge"""


Good idea! There are too many threats on this topic and posts are getting needlessly repeated. I'll send a note to the Admin.

 

[earth_as_one]

How people react to this event speaks volumes about where they stand regarding freedom and democracy when it counts.

Those who have sided with the people, freedom and democracy, can say so openly.

Those who have sided with Mubarak, oppression and tyranny, can't say so openly. It would look bad if these people called for a brutal crack down, killing tens of thousands of people Instead they tend to use code words and fear mongering as a covert means to support the dictator or give him time to reassert his control.

Here are some of the code words and fear mongering in support of Mubarak's oppression and tyranny:

1) stability: As in keep Egypt the way it was...a dictatorship.

2) go-slow: think of this like a boxing match. The champ has been knocked down by the challenger. the go-slow approach would be the equivalent of stopping the match, let the champ go to his corner, clear his head, have a drink, splash a little cold water on his face, a little massage and the match proceeds when he the champ indicates he's ready. A long drawn out process would give Mubarak time to regroup his forces and continue hunting down and punishing the people responsible. BTW, Mubarak appointed his chief torturer and executioner as PM: Omar Suleiman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia While this person holds power, Egyptian secret police and intelligence services continue to abduct dissidents. A harrowing day shows the resilience and tactics of Egypt's security state - CSMonitor.com In order for the protesters to be safe, they must continue the revolt until everyone associated with Mubarak has been removed from power.

3) irrational fear mongering: The revolt is a Muslim Brotherhood plot to turn Egypt into a theocracy like Iran and start a war with Israel. BS! People with facebook and twitter accounts started this revolt. These people are mostly young and secular. The Muslim Brotherhood was just as surprised by the protests as the Egyptian government and it took them a few days to join the revolt. While the Muslim Brotherhood does enjoy some level of popular support in Egypt, they would need a majority in an election to be able to implement the religious reforms they advocate. A free representative democracy should accurately represent the will of the people. The majority of Egyptians are tolerant of other religions and do not want war with Israel or anyone else. This revolt was driven by poverty, food insecurity and frustration with a corrupt nepotistic dictatorship where poor people could not improve their situation no matter how hard they worked or how well they educated themselves.

Judge these people for yourselves:

Harper urges go-slow approach to Egypt
Metro - Harper urges go-slow approach to Egypt

Netanyahu was the only Western leader to come out on the side of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
The battle for the Israeli voter passes through Tahrir Square - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[CDNBear]

What's good for China or Herald should be good for these thread......."""Merge"""

I agree.

How people react to this event speaks volumes about where they stand regarding freedom and democracy when it counts.

Those who have sided with the people, freedom and democracy, can say so openly.

I side with what is right. Not a feel good feeling or catch phrase band wagon, like yourself.

You can bleat about democracy all you want. In the end, if a more brutal fanatical regime takes office. There will be more bloodshed.

Judge these people for yourselves:

So much for jurisprudence again.

What gives you the right to judge anyone?

 

[DaSleeper]

Somehow I don't trust someone who suscribes to The Al Jazeera or muslim brotherhood RSS feed

 

[CDNBear]

Somehow I don't trust someone who suscribes to The Al Jazeera or muslim brotherhood RSS feed

Really? I'm on the don't trust list then, lol. I read both as often as I can.

Know thy enemy I always say.

 

[darkbeaver]

Really? I'm on the don't trust list then, lol. I read both as often as I can.

Know thy enemy I always say.

Don't worry Bear I trust you man. Yer always wrong regular as clockwork.

Know thine own ass from a hole in the ground I always say.