Ted Kennedy's "Seat" goes to the Republicans

[JLM]

I don't think Obama should necessarily be under a cloud because Kennedy was under a cloud. I still believe in Obama and think he has the best interests of Americans at heart. I never did believe that he was going fix problems in a year that took 235 years to evolve. I do think he's promised too much with affordable universal health care. God knows we have more than enough evidence in this country that it just doesn't work.

 

[Cliffy]

I don't think Obama should necessarily be under a cloud because Kennedy was under a cloud. I still believe in Obama and think he has the best interests of Americans at heart. I never did believe that he was going fix problems in a year that took 235 years to evolve. I do think he's promised too much with affordable universal health care. God knows we have more than enough evidence in this country that it just doesn't work.

Yet there is more than plenty of evidence in France (voted the best health care system in the world) that it does work. If you remove the factor of greed rampant in our system and remove all the loop holes doctors use to make more money than was intended and you would have a good system that works. Governments have been gutting our system at the request of pharmaceutical lobbyists for decades.

 

[JLM]

Yet there is more than plenty of evidence in France (voted the best health care system in the world) that it does work. If you remove the factor of greed rampant in our system and remove all the loop holes doctors use to make more money than was intended and you would have a good system that works. Governments have been gutting our system at the request of pharmaceutical lobbyists for decades.

I don't doubt what you say, Cliff, but I think "greed" is a fact of life in the "Canadian (and American) Way". It would definitely work if the money to fund it is available OR if people would lower their expectations on what should be delivered. I know Oregon was on some sort of funded system years ago, but there was a definite finite number of conditions that the system would cover. Here we have big line ups and the ones who can afford it fly off to the U.S. and pay their own treatment.

 

[countryboy]

Yet there is more than plenty of evidence in France (voted the best health care system in the world) that it does work. If you remove the factor of greed rampant in our system and remove all the loop holes doctors use to make more money than was intended and you would have a good system that works. Governments have been gutting our system at the request of pharmaceutical lobbyists for decades.

That's why I think the U.S. could have a real opportunity here, if the two opposing sides could get off their fences and get down to real facts and look at how to set up a real system with real benefits to address the real needs all the way around.

Unfortunately, as some wise person ;-) pointed out on another thread, "politics isn't real" so what are the chances? Little to none, I'm afraid...

 

[Nuggler]

Do you really believe governments have your best interest at heart?

I believe I do.

We pay govts. to have it. One could pay private for eons and still get it up the ass. mehhhhhhhhhhh. govts. too.

go figure.******lil guy in LIl'Abner, Joe bltxzsk?*******with a perpetual cloud over his head...........That's us.

 

[Cliffy]

That's why I think the U.S. could have a real opportunity here, if the two opposing sides could get off their fences and get down to real facts and look at how to set up a real system with real benefits to address the real needs all the way around.

Unfortunately, as some wise person ;-) pointed out on another thread, "politics isn't real" so what are the chances? Little to none, I'm afraid...

Unfortunately, change is the most resisted element on earth. "Looking out for number 1" is gonna kill us all. Sooner or later, people have to realize that their own health is tied to the health of their communities. But trying to get 300 million people to wake up to the fact that we are all interconnected and interdependent is a monumental and almost impossible task.

 

[Goober]

Unfortunately, change is the most resisted element on earth. "Looking out for number 1" is gonna kill us all. Sooner or later, people have to realize that their own health is tied to the health of their communities. But trying to get 300 million people to wake up to the fact that we are all interconnected and interdependent is a monumental and almost impossible task.

Cliffy - Right on the money -

 

[TenPenny]

and remove all the loop holes doctors use to make more money than was intended

Can you elaborate on how doctors are making more money than was intended, and what, for example, would be an appropriate pay scale for a doctor?

Just curious on, say, what you think a proper hourly wage for a doctor in Canada would be.

 

[Cliffy]

Can you elaborate on how doctors are making more money than was intended, and what, for example, would be an appropriate pay scale for a doctor?

Just curious on, say, what you think a proper hourly wage for a doctor in Canada would be.

It has nothing to do with wages. It has to do with a system of referral where you can't see any specialist without being referred by your family physician. That is just the tip of the iceberg. The system has become more about how many referrals one has to go through to get anything done (each one being paid for by the ministry) than it is about helping people get better.

Like any bureaucracy, it is top heavy with too much being creamed off before it benefits the patient.

 

[JLM]

Unfortunately, change is the most resisted element on earth. "Looking out for number 1" is gonna kill us all. Sooner or later, people have to realize that their own health is tied to the health of their communities. But trying to get 300 million people to wake up to the fact that we are all interconnected and interdependent is a monumental and almost impossible task.

Absolutely, and another if not the chief huge problem, is people who connect health to pills, I call it the "Drugstore Mentality", more poison comes out of drugstores than any other single source. They are very good when they are necessary, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[countryboy]

Unfortunately, change is the most resisted element on earth. "Looking out for number 1" is gonna kill us all. Sooner or later, people have to realize that their own health is tied to the health of their communities. But trying to get 300 million people to wake up to the fact that we are all interconnected and interdependent is a monumental and almost impossible task.

No question about the resistance to change. Back in my corporate days, we used to talk about "bending the trend" (overcoming resistance to change) and how it usually takes some dramatic event to make it happen (get people's attention). And I'm not talking about sinister corporate plots to take over the world and make slaves out of everyone...one of the examples that comes to mind is technology that we had developed to reduce air pollution in industrial painting operations by over 60%, but nobody cared, at the time! Hell, we even had a tough time to convince our own sales forces to wake up and realize the implications.

I think there is some truth to the theory of bending the trend. The effects of obesity are almost becoming mainstream news but I don't think that's enough to get big changes going. I'm not at all sure what it would take, because of course there is politics right at the root of it. It remains a dilemma in my mind...

 

[JLM]

Can you elaborate on how doctors are making more money than was intended, and what, for example, would be an appropriate pay scale for a doctor?

Just curious on, say, what you think a proper hourly wage for a doctor in Canada would be.

I'm a little hesitant to attack doctors (I've had several good ones) One in particular would write me a prescription and then tell me just hang onto it over the weekend and if you are not feeling better then have it filled. Almost invariably I was feeling better so "filed" it. One time he did a minor surgery on my arm to remove a cyst- which took him about 20 minutes. When he finished he said "there I just got paid $43 for that- the vet gets paid $85 for the same thing. I think MOST doctors have their patient's well being at heart.

 

[JLM]

It has nothing to do with wages. It has to do with a system of referral where you can't see any specialist without being referred by your family physician. That is just the tip of the iceberg. The system has become more about how many referrals one has to go through to get anything done (each one being paid for by the ministry) than it is about helping people get better.

Like any bureaucracy, it is top heavy with too much being creamed off before it benefits the patient.

Just one question Cliff- Would the average person know when he has to see a specialist and if so which specialist? I know I wouldn't have a clue where to begin (although most of my problems could probably use a shrink............................:lol::lol::lol

 

[Cliffy]

Just one question Cliff- Would the average person know when he has to see a specialist and if so which specialist? I know I wouldn't have a clue where to begin (although most of my problems could probably use a shrink............................:lol::lol::lol

That would come under "taking responsibility for our own health". My doctor tells me I have congestive heart failure. It is caused by my kidneys not eliminating water properly so fluid builds up around my heart and it is under too much pressure to pump blood properly. He tells me I need to see a heart specialist. He is a whack job. I need to see a kidney specialist. I have kidney failure. How do I know that? I studied it. I don't take anything a doctor says unless I check it out first. People need to stop relying on someone else to take care of their health. Doctors have their place in the scheme of things but are not gods like some seem to think (especially some doctors I've met).

 

[petros]

Can you elaborate on how doctors are making more money than was intended.

Short term Rx's that require visitis for refills for one.

 

[countryboy]

That would come under "taking responsibility for our own health". My doctor tells me I have congestive heart failure. It is caused by my kidneys not eliminating water properly so fluid builds up around my heart and it is under too much pressure to pump blood properly. He tells me I need to see a heart specialist. He is a whack job. I need to see a kidney specialist. I have kidney failure. How do I know that? I studied it. I don't take anything a doctor says unless I check it out first. People need to stop relying on someone else to take care of their health. Doctors have their place in the scheme of things but are not gods like some seem to think (especially some doctors I've met).

An interesting observation you have there, Cliff. Here's something you and many might find whacky...I know of an "energy healer" in Japan who claims that one of the weaknesses of conventional (western) medicine is that it generally doesn't address the problems of all the body systems and how they work together. He has a medical degree but does amazing things with his hands (no jokes, please) with no surgery or drugs. He just uses "energy" to heal...

I think you're alluding to the issue he talks about (kidneys, heart working together, one affects the other, and so on)...What's that old song? The hip bone's connected to the, thigh bone; the thigh bone's connected to the...maybe it said more than we gave it credit for! 8O

 

[JLM]

Short term Rx's that require visitis for refills for one.

If the prescription is no longer the correct one or the strength of the prescription needs changing, how would that determination be made without being checked by the doctor?

 

[Cliffy]

An interesting observation you have there, Cliff. Here's something you and many might find whacky...I know of an "energy healer" in Japan who claims that one of the weaknesses of conventional (western) medicine is that it generally doesn't address the problems of all the body systems and how they work together. He has a medical degree but does amazing things with his hands (no jokes, please) with no surgery or drugs. He just uses "energy" to heal...

I think you're alluding to the issue he talks about (kidneys, heart working together, one affects the other, and so on)...What's that old song? The hip bone's connected to the, thigh bone; the thigh bone's connected to the...maybe it said more than we gave it credit for! 8O

He sounds like a Qi Gong practitioner. Realigning the energy systems of the body can make all the difference for some because most ailments are caused by blocks (mental, emotional, spiritual) in the energy system. I have studied wholistic medicine for forty years. I guess it is time to get back to it.:roll:

 

[countryboy]

He sounds like a Qi Gong practitioner. Realigning the energy systems of the body can make all the difference for some because most ailments are caused by blocks (mental, emotional, spiritual) in the energy system. I have studied wholistic medicine for forty years. I guess it is time to get back to it.:roll:

I'm not sure if he actually uses any particular discipline, but I'll find out. He is rather exceptional, in that the people who know him personally say he can cure anything except Alzheimer's Disease. and his success rate is 100% and has been all his life...he's 63 years old now. The people I know call him a "miracle healer."

My better half practises and teaches Reiki...she has 2 Master Degrees, one from Japan and one from Canada. I helped her write her training manuals (the English language ones) and learned a fair amount when doing it. She taught me the Level 1 practitioner course and I actually do a lot of Reiki healing on myself...but, I combine it with TM (meditation) techniques as it works better for me. There are many energy healing techniques and I see similarities in most of them.

It's a fascinating field of study, but not all that well known in Canada. It all works though...I have even been healed in cases of "blunt force trauma" - I whacked my thumb with a framing hammer once and she gave it intense Reiki treatment on the spot...no damage to the thumb or nail...next morning, it was perfectly normal. Another time, I stepped off a ladder and landed with my ankle going sideways...a nasty twist. Another case of on the spot Reiki (works best on these things if applied immediately)...next morning, I was up making coffee before I realized I was walking on the sprained ankle, which no longer hurt at all.

I'm a big believer in this kind of healing and I've seen work on all kinds of problems. It's not 100% effective on everything all the time, but what is? It definitely has value.

Just realized we might have strayed a bit off-topic...OK, let's see...if some of these healing techniques were incorporated into the U.S. health care system - which was such a hot issue during the election in Massachusetts - it might help to lower health care costs, particularly from the standpoint of drug costs.

There, that's really why we raised this subject, right? Right! ;-)

 

[Cliffy]

To me, it is ludicrous to have a "health care" system without wholistic healing being included. Alopathic medicine has its place but is only part of an overall system and is the most expensive component. In Canada, we partially pay for Acupuncture and a couple of other treatments in the system. In a lot of cases, surgery could be avoided and some mental health problems can be controllable. To me, the whole problem with the medical system in the US has to do with the pharmaceutical lobbyists working people into a frenzy against change because of the billions of dollars they make from drugs and procedures that are unnecessary. There is a tremendous amount of ignorance on the part of the no voters and that is intentional.