Freedom, Justice and Democracy RE:Egypt

[Nuggler]

If it were not for instant news, video tape, cell phones, and digital cameras, Mubarak would have had the crowd machined gunned, and the leftovers tortured........We would have heard only rumours.........much later.

As it stands, the Muslim Brotherhood will take over.

No democracy.

Very curtailed personal freedom.

Women will continue to be chattels.

Any "democratic" politician parachuted in by the "West" will not survive long.

Just MHO.

 

[In Between Man]

Yes! Freedom, justice and democracy for everybody - right guys?! That means that the 10% of Egypt's population that is Christian should be perfectly uninhibited in gathering, sharing their faith, and evangelizing in their country including public places. Does this sound reasonable, or would you rather the "silly" Christians keep to themselves and everything remain "secular"?

 

[Cliffy]

Christians have been evangelizing in Egypt for 2000 years and they are only 10% of the population. Seems they haven't been doing a good job. Freedom means freedom for everyone but I fear that because the west has been supporting the despot that has been oppressing these people for 30 years, there will be a serious backlash. I think Nuggler is right and the Muslim radicals will eventually take control for a while. It always surprises me that the Yanks did not learn from Iran. The reason there is radical Muslim control of Iran is because they set up the Shaw. History will probably repeat itself in Egypt and in a few other countries and the Christians will have their Armageddon they want so bad. But I think the outcome will be just the opposite of what they expect.

 

[petros]

The Muslim Brotherhood can not be allowed to seize power in Egypt.

That is not impossible.....remember the secular nature of Iran's revolution? And now the people have to take to the streets in the face of the tyranny of Islam.......a much more difficult enemy of liberty than a secular dictator.

Peace in the ME requires the suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood. It is that simple. These boys live by the Koran and the Hadith, which demand the killing of Jews......

I work with a girl that fled Algeria.......born and brought up Muslim, she refers to her co-religionists as 'barbarians"
And then there is Ayaan Hirsi Ali.....once a follower of the Brotherhood...

"The kind of thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia, and among the Muslim Brotherhood in Kenya and Somalia, is not compatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves a feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honour and shame. It rests on self-deception, hypocrisy, and double standards."

Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali page 347.

Muslim Brotherhood....it has a real ring to it kinda like Stern Gang.

How come the poll doesn't have "none of the above" or "other" options?

 

[gopher]

''Funny about Mr. Bush.....you know, when he was setting up a democracy in Iraq, the left was crying out about how the Arab "culture" did not want democracy.............''

The real funny thing is that while Bush was ''promoting'' democracy in Iraq, he gave billions to support fascist regimes in Tunisia and Egypt. Where was your criticism back then?

As for fascist Karimov, where's your criticism of him and Bush's support for that criminal?

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'' the Muslim Brotherhood will take over''

Where? We've gone through this already as the cult is only a small minority group in Egypt. But, I suppose you of the right wing will continue to harp on this nonsense for another 10 years like you always do.

 

[mabudon]

Man this current mess has really allowed the stupider people on this site a fine time to shine

I suppose Mubaraks promise to "not run in the next election" makes full good sense to the dummies who think that any government, even a minority such as we have, has absolute dictatorial powers

Seriously, the "system" as it is only works when it works- when it fails, then the actual power behind said system (and for the idiots that is the F-ing people of a country, not the banks or corporations) has every right to request a re-set or do-over

I am not surprised by the fools posting here and trying to spin this as "Islamofascism" or whatever- you idiots will probably be in the pro-government paid-thug ranks when this business happens here, as it most definitely should at some point in the future

EDIT and I wil be gleefully punching you in the face when your BS shows up to violently disrupt a legitimate, peaceful protest, you pieces of human feces

 

[gopher]

''Man this current mess has really allowed the stupider people on this site a fine time to shine''

It is eminently clear that people on this forum do not really understand what is going on (or what has gone on) in that troubled region. Moreover, they allow their political biases to cloud the picture while applying double standards as they do so often. Their refusal to criticize Karimov and Bush's support of his tyranny while he professed to promote democracy is but one absurd example.

 

[Colpy]

More than just neighbours

Excellent piece

 

[Nuggler]

'''' the Muslim Brotherhood will take over''

Where? We've gone through this already as the cult is only a small minority group in Egypt. But, I suppose you of the right wing will continue to harp on this nonsense for another 10 years like you always do.''............quote from Gopher.

_______________

I'm the farthest thing from right wing you'll ever find, and have never said anything positive about Geo. Bush or any other Neo Con.......American or otherwise.

So, why do you use my quote?? It's just my belief, that if Mubarak is outed, the vacuum will be filled by Islamists. That's all. Just an opinion. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[earth_as_one]

More than just neighbours

Excellent piece

Its true that Israeli and Egyptian leaders and elites have a warm relationship. Israel supported Mubarak's iron fisted rule which oppressed 80 million Egyptians while Egypt supported Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. They've probably toured each others torture chambers and traded tips regarding the latest interrogation techniques over cocktails.

I doubt this warm relationship will continue after Egyptians elect a government which represents the will of the people.

While Egypt's future relationship with Israel will likely be a major election issue, I doubt even remnants of Mubarak's National Democratic Party will campaign on a pro-Israel platform. I expect all serious contenders will say some uncomplimentary things about Israel and their treatment of Palestinians. But the main focus of the upcoming election will be the economy, since this revolution was driven by poverty. The successful candidate is going to have to convince Egyptians they have the best economic plan. I don't expect the economy to be the Muslim Brotherhood's strong suit.

At some point, a free Egypt will have to develop a foreign policy to deal with Israel. I would expect that avoiding war will be a top priority. I would expect that a free Egypt will open their border with Gaza to the free flow of humanitarian food and medical aid, goods and services.

A free Egypt will have to deal with the issue of arms smuggling into Gaza. Since this activity generates wealth, cracking down on this part of the Egyptian economy will likely be a low priority. If Israel doesn't agree with the way a free Egypt manages their border with Gaza, they can always seize control of the Gaza side of the border and do the dirty work themselves.

 

[ironsides]

Based upon what you just said, there will be war.

 

[petros]

Freedom, Justice and Democracy are all marketing words. Not a single person on this planet has any of those.

 

[EagleSmack]

Israel having a neighbor that won't ignore their human rights abuses anymore sounds like an improvement as far as human rights are concerned. This change does increase the likelihood that Egypt might go to war with Israel, but I still believe that's an unlikely outcome in the near future.

But what great joy you would have with a new Israeli-Egypt war!

Thirty years was far too long for peace between the two! Just think of it... the Sinai being militarized by Egyptian forces. An attack by Israel into the Sinai. Carnage, miles of burned out trucks, tanks and armor. The desert once again littered with the debris of war and the bloated and blackened bodies Egypts youth for your entertainment.

 

[darkbeaver]

Man this current mess has really allowed the stupider people on this site a fine time to shine

I suppose Mubaraks promise to "not run in the next election" makes full good sense to the dummies who think that any government, even a minority such as we have, has absolute dictatorial powers

Seriously, the "system" as it is only works when it works- when it fails, then the actual power behind said system (and for the idiots that is the F-ing people of a country, not the banks or corporations) has every right to request a re-set or do-over

I am not surprised by the fools posting here and trying to spin this as "Islamofascism" or whatever- you idiots will probably be in the pro-government paid-thug ranks when this business happens here, as it most definitely should at some point in the future

EDIT and I wil be gleefully punching you in the face when your BS shows up to violently disrupt a legitimate, peaceful protest, you pieces of human feces

Hello mabudon bro you are 22 million per cent right. I agree except for the punching, I will use a brick, my arthritis you know. Have you ever seen a more pig ignorant collection of imperial arse kissing yard monkeys. I haven't. Stupid contented slaves of Israel.

 

[EagleSmack]

You're suffering from Bush itis. Everything with you goes back to Bush. You have to mention his name every day

He misses Bush.

 

[earth_as_one]

Arab freedom and democracy is a potential threat long term to Israel. But in the near term, Egypt's military is a little busy trying to prevent a civil war. I doubt Israel would take advantage of the chaos to attack Egypt.

Even in the longer term, I doubt even a hostile Egypt would directly take on Israel. More likely they would covertly support the Palestinian resistance, just like Iran and Syria. So far that activity hasn't started a war.

Israel has time to react to a free Egypt. I suggest they use this time wisely to deal with the issues which cause friction with their Arab neighbors, namely the poverty, oppression and injustice they impose on their non-citizens. I recommend Israel stop stealing land from Palestinians, hold their war criminals responsible for their actions and grant the Palestinians freedom for a start.

 

[darkbeaver]

Israel is all about taking advantage, even when they have to manufacture it with IEDs and suicide bombers plucked out of hospitals strapped into bomb vests and let go in markets. No country in the ME will ever enjoy freedom while Israel exists as the zionist state.

But what great joy you would have with a new Israeli-Egypt war!

Thirty years was far too long for peace between the two! Just think of it... the Sinai being militarized by Egyptian forces. An attack by Israel into the Sinai. Carnage, miles of burned out trucks, tanks and armor. The desert once again littered with the debris of war and the bloated and blackened bodies Egypts youth for your entertainment.

Are you worried about the thousands of American youth presently dead and maimed fighting wars for the Israeli pigs?

 

[EagleSmack]

Hello mabudon bro you are 22 million per cent right. I agree except for the punching, I will use a brick, my arthritis you know. Have you ever seen a more pig ignorant collection of imperial arse kissing yard monkeys. I haven't. Stupid contented slaves of Israel.

Are you worried about the thousands of American youth presently dead and maimed fighting wars for the Israeli pigs?

I am not aware of any of those.

 

[darkbeaver]

I am not aware of any of those.

How's it going smack? That little guys got guts I bet.

 

[earth_as_one]

But what great joy you would have with a new Israeli-Egypt war!

Thirty years was far too long for peace between the two! Just think of it... the Sinai being militarized by Egyptian forces. An attack by Israel into the Sinai. Carnage, miles of burned out trucks, tanks and armor. The desert once again littered with the debris of war and the bloated and blackened bodies Egypts youth for your entertainment.

Sounds like you take a sadistic pleasure in this sort of carnage. I don't.

But if Israel does start a war with its neighbors, I expect the results will be more similar to events of 2006 rather than 1967 which also resulted in destroyed tanks and armored vehicles:

YouTube - Failure of Israels Merkava Tank 1/4

BTW, I agree with HRW:

...the fact remains that Hezbollah's arsenal was overwhelmingly composed of unguided Katyusha rockets, which cannot be targeted with any degree of precision. While some of those might nonetheless have sometimes hit a military target, even a target near civilians, Hezbollah fired thousands of these unguided rockets directly into civilian areas with no way of guiding the attack toward a military target, knowing that civilian casualties would be the likely result. The massive extent of this barrage made clear that these attacks were a matter of policy. In some cases, we documented the use of metal ball bearings inside the rockets launched on Haifa, designed to maximize the lethal effect. These bombs may have killed "only" 43 civilians, but that says more about the availability of warning systems and bomb shelters throughout most of Northern Israel and the evacuation of more than 350,000 people than it does about Hezbollah's intentions. Coupled with statements of Hezbollah's leadership about targeting Israeli civilians (even if only in "retaliation"), these cases were more than enough to conclude, as we did in our July 18 press release, that such attacks were "at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians."...

Hezbollah's Rockets and Civilian Casualties | Human Rights Watch

If Israel wants to get along with a free Egypt they should stop committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Israel would have far fewer problems with their neighbors when Palestinians have freedom and justice and started obeying international laws and treaties:

The International committee of the Red Cross

What does the law say about the establishment of settlements in occupied territory?

When a territory is placed under the authority of a hostile army, the rules of international humanitarian law dealing with occupation apply. Occupation confers certain rights and obligations on the occupying power.

When a territory is placed under the authority of a hostile army, the rules of interna tional humanitarian law dealing with occupation apply. Occupation confers certain rights and obligations on the occupying power.

Prohibited actions include forcibly transferring protected persons from the occupied territories to the territory of the occupying power.

It is unlawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention for an occupying power to transfer parts of its own population into the territory it occupies. This means that international humanitarian law prohibits the establishment of settlements, as these are a form of population transfer into occupied territory. Any measure designed to expand or consolidate settlements is also illegal. Confiscation of land to build or expand settlements is similarly prohibited.

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/faq/occupation-faq-051010.htm