What are the prerequisites of a good debater?
- Thread starter JLM
- Start date
I've always thought of it as discussing and that's why I think there shouldn't be so much emphasis put on showing "proof" that what you say is true to the reader. I think it's up to the reader to decide if it matters enough for them to seek out their own truth and then to see if it's important enough to go back and let the poster know that they are wrong. I get accused of mis-guided loyalties and have at times been highly criticized. It's a belief that is true and good to me and my way of thinking. Is it wrong for me? I don't think it is and I truly feel it's no one's business but my own. That doesn't make me blind to someone's faults or to an organizations faults. It just makes me loyal. I am loyal to my husband and to my children and the rest of my family. I still see their faults as I know they see mine. Does it make any of us wrong? Does pointing that out to me make anyone else better for it? I guess that's where things could turn into a debate as opposed to a discussion. I think that when things are allowed to be a discussion minus the criticizims, it's a whole lot more fun. I don't care if 10 people tell me they don't feel the same way or that they would not do things the same way as I do. Just keep the name calling out of it and don't tell me I'm wrong for thinking the way I do.
You are so right about opinions and feelings. I think that's why most of us come here. It's the visits we used to have in our kitchens and living rooms and should be treated with as much respect.
Aw shucks, I''m blushing. I'm just a shy, awkward, simple country boy.
OK, Karrie...you caught me. I'm actually a bit of a salesman and here's what I mean by that. I love discussions and I do love to learn things from other people, and have tried to do that all my life. I actually don't know anything myself...any knowledge I have came from other people along the way. So I treasure the discussions for sure.
Having a decent discussion is actually quite simple, if one gives it a bit of thought...I usually ask a lot of questions, but they come in 2 flavours. Open and closed. Very simple.
Open questions encourage people to talk. The shortest example of an open question is "Oh?" Or, I might say something like, "Oh, could you elaborate?" People naturally want to rush in and "fill the void" with some answers which, is a great way to learn things about them or the point they're making. Of course, open questions can be longer too...such as, "Would you mind telling me why you're so feel so strongly that I am a complete moron and totally unsuitable to participate in this discussion?" (Yeah, a bit over the top but you get the idea...)
Closed questions help to direct (or guide) the conversation in the direction you might wish to take it. They usually "demand" a "yes" or "no" answer. An example of a closed question might be...let's see..."Do you like fast food burgers?" That would usually get a pretty quick answer. And "I don't know" usually isn't one of them!
Is this trickery? Certainly not. I call it "conversational skills" and they can be applied to any kind of discussion, oral or written. A good salesperson would use these simple techniques in a conversation to uncover customer needs and make the conversation pleasant for both/all parties. Of course, it gets a bit deeper than that when it comes to make a real sale, but that's a totally different story.
I'm just trying to point out a couple of simple skills that seemed to have worked well for me in various types of discussions and conversations. And that was part of my motivation for mentioning "discussions" in the post in this thread. I really do believe they are quite valuable. Hope that makes some sense...
Some people love to debate and don't see it as 'negative' but a competitive challenge to thoroughly delve through
the subject from both sides and see which one comes out
the victor. That is a healthy recreation as long as both
people understand and agree on the rules, but on this forum
debating and discussions most times become a fight for
power over the other, and a trashing of one another, and
a loss of composure and the inability to stick to the
subject of the debate.
I'm certainly not a debator, but I love good chats or
discussions to know how others view subject that I am
also interested in.
I also give comments on many matters, which is just an
opinion, and I respect what others think, even though it
might not be same as mine, in fact I like to see different
opinions, it helps our own opinions, lets us look at ourselves a little closer, and maybe change how we view
matters from time to time.
VanIsle...For what it's worth, I think you said a lot of "valuable stuff" there. For those people who demand proof and statistics, etc. to support a point in our "debates", I can tell you that when it comes to important decisions like buying a new car, voting in an election, or any number of equally important decisions, they are all governed by emotions and feelings more than they are by facts. Ironic but very true.
Any good car salesman will tell you that the issues of fuel economy, safety, and even price are all "influencers" of the decision in most cases. In other words, the buyer will use these "facts" to support their decision, but that decision, more times than not, is based on emotions. The buyer is picturing him or herself behind the wheel, driving down the street feeling all proud and happy, etc., etc. and that's the tipping point when it comes to "yes/no" decisions. After they buy the car, they will tell all their friends that it gets great mileage, was a hell of a deal, safest car on the road, and all those other "post-sale reinforcements."
Humans are humans, and they are all governed by feelings and emotions. I might suggest that if you can, instead of reacting negatively to the odd "shot" in the forum, take a deep breath and ask yourself, "Now why would he/she say that? Having a bad day? Maybe. Wants to be right all the time? Maybe. Wants to purposely hurt my feelings? Probably not. Wants to make themselves feel better? Probably so." You might even say to yourself, "What a butt-head. Doesn't deserve my valuable time to fashion a response."
Some individuals "lash out" because they just don't stop and think. Well, they're human and we all do that from time to time. Emotions, remember? I'm not an expert at much at all (I spent many years as a general manager, which loosely translates to "jack of all trades, master of none"), but I have spent a lifetime working with people of all types and stations in life, and I have to say, I think I really do LIKE people. I like the variety of styles and personalities on the forum, and I think it's a good thing that they're not all the same in tone or approach, or else it would likely be a boring place.
Besides, having the odd "one liner" shot across the bow might be better than some of the long-winded threads that I would post! At least the one-liners don't take as much time to read!
So, if you can look at the variety on the forum as being positive, exciting and not boring, and very enlightening (with all kinds of information coming your way), you might feel differently about what you see. I really hope you can see some of those benefits in it all! And stick to your principles about what you feel is important to you - because you are right!
Happy posting! :lol:
CB I have been accused of having long winded posts - not breaking them up with new parargraphs, commas etc. I do at times have a tendency to take the long way around to get to the point. I just start typing and forget to quit I guess. Everyone takes the odd shot and that's okay for the most part. It's tough when it's someone you once thought of as a friend. Not earth shattering but a little tough for a little while. Sticking to my principles has gotten me into trouble a few times on here but that won't change me. You haven't been here long enough yet to know that sometimes there is a lot more than an odd shot. Thankfully, things have been pretty under control for the past few months and I am amongst those who hope it stays that way.
I do agree with you Talloola. Your posts are sensible and fair. I know on rare occassions you somewhat rip into someone who needs it but again - it's not because you didn't think about what you had to say and the answers are always pretty good. I like to read what you have to say. I have always hoped that one day you might stop by and say hello.
A couple of the obnoxious ones are conspicuous by their absense or put another way the "cream rises to the top". Nothing worse for a miserable person than to be surrounded by happy people. :lol::lol:
Yep, Ron doesn't put up with any crap- just wish he'd quit deleteing the "neat stuff" before I get a chance to read it.........................:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
That's true, then it gets scraped off...or has a life off the net...
ottytrain2:Hence my absence...
But rest assured, I'm around. Just nothing intriguing or stimulating to reply to, just the same old same. People that can't concede when their proven wrong, and then you have members that support those people ad nauseum.
I'll let you know when I see some original thought.
That's true, then it gets scraped off...or has a life off the net...
Hence my absence...
But rest assured, I'm around. Just nothing intriguing or stimulating to reply to, just the same old same. People that can't concede when their proven wrong, and then you have members that support those people ad nauseum.
I'll let you know when I see some original thought.
Good to see you're alive- I wasn't actually referring to you "as one of the ones conspicuous by their absense", actually it's more fun when people don't admit they're wrong- then we get to see them make a "horses ass" of themselves. Hey, if you ain't never wrong you don't learn anything new. :lol::lol::lol::lol:
What's boring or non-stimulating (argumentative) to you may be just what most people are looking for. A quiet place to "visit" without the insults and the arguments or the "proven wrongs" that people delight in. Why do you think this same old same old continues to surface as a topic?That's true, then it gets scraped off...or has a life off the net...
Hence my absence...
But rest assured, I'm around. Just nothing intriguing or stimulating to reply to, just the same old same. People that can't concede when their proven wrong, and then you have members that support those people ad nauseum.
I'll let you know when I see some original thought.
Why should someone have to concede because you feel you have proven them wrong. I don't always (often) accept that you have proven me or others wrong. I often see you say things that you consider to be truth that I don't agree with. We all have our own truth Bear and you often seem to consider that yours is the only one. I'm not trying to insult you or to say you are always wrong either. But neither are you always right and rather than add to a "conversation" for the the most part, you want to turn it into a brawl and it gets deleted. Might be fun and stimulating for you but not so much for hardly anyone else. You say you haven't been on because it's the same old same old yet we have new posters and everyone talks rather than argues and they mention how much they enjoy that. Fighting isn't fun or stimulating. It's disturbing and when it happens many posters just leave for a few days until it's over.
I think when one states something as being fact and refuses to hear anyone else's version, then it'd be a good idea to offer something to support the "fact". Not only does it support what you say, it INFORMS; people learn that way. If all you do is blab your opinions as facts and don't offer reasons why you have those opinions, you aren't contributing anything but opinion. The problem with that is others have their own opinions and they won't convert to yours and you aren't helping anyone.
That's true, then it gets scraped off...or has a life off the net...
Hence my absence...
But rest assured, I'm around. Just nothing intriguing or stimulating to reply to, just the same old same. People that can't concede when their proven wrong, and then you have members that support those people ad nauseum.
I'll let you know when I see some original thought.
Hello Bear, I hope you're enjoying the new year. I would like to stimulate you with a big stick, who are you calling old people, you snot nosed garbage eatin omnivore?
I never did prove you wrong though. If we wait for you to incorporate some original thought we would not see you for far to long.:lol: