UN Urged To Declare Canada's Treatment Of Aboriginals 'Genocide'

[karrie]

The problem is that addiction and dysfunction is a direct result of residential schools and the policies of the past. I know native women who were victims, who had no nurturing in the schools and were incapable of even hugging their children. They managed to beat their addiction but suffer from the guilt of not being able to be good mothers.

Yep. It sucks, royally. But, social services still can't leave the kids there when they're getting no nurturing because mom is drunk. It's a vicious cycle that people are working hard to break. It's just not going to be broken instantly.

I don't think Canadians themselves did apologize but I think the apology that was issued was as symbolic for us as it was for First Nations peoples. Because it's about the acknowledgment.



Don't you think they (we) should? That's not going to happen without bringing it forward and acknowledging it.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think any UN resolution is going to radically alter Canadian internal policy and affairs, nor should it simply on that reason alone. But this is something that needs to be faced head on. Even though it mostly happened long ago (although as Karrie already pointed out, not so very long ago in some cases) when something is as monumental as this, it can stop you from moving forward. For First Nations peoples themselves and for Canada as a whole.

I think it's also important to understand why people from other countries look at us like we're hypocritical morons. For a lot of people that first shock of learning how we look to others can be brutal. I think that's where people are approaching the UN. For lack of a more eloquent way of putting this.... the white countries are beyond criticism, but the dark countries had better watch their step or we're wagging our finger at them. And I think globally that's starting to not fly.

 

[Cliffy]

That's why so many still need social services to work with them. With them being the key part of that.

I realize that there are conscientious social workers trying to work with the families. There has been much progress made but like all bureaucrats, they have limited funding and they still have to work within the framework of the system. My friend Ganishka is a former social worked and now advocates for those changes, working with families, the aboriginal community and social services to bring meaningful change to how the system works, but she is very frustrated.

We live in an area where there are no recognized Indian band and those aboriginal people who are here are from many different tribes. There is no cohesive group which complicates matters. It is different from any other place in Canada. Our local tribe, the Sinixt, being declared extinct, have absolutely no access to any government services, not medical, education, housing or anything else. They simply do not exist as far as governments are concerned. If that is not genocide, I don't know what is.

 

[SLM]

I think it's also important to understand why people from other countries look at us like we're hypocritical morons. For a lot of people that first shock of learning how we look to others can be brutal. I think that's where people are approaching the UN. For lack of a more eloquent way of putting this.... the white countries are beyond criticism, but the dark countries had better watch their step or we're wagging our finger at them. And I think globally that's starting to not fly.

Sure, credibilitiy is important. Certainly we can't appear all that credible chastising others when we won't/can't clean up our own back yard. But the biggest significance is the impact it has within our borders. While Canada can add a voice to other's internationally and perhaps do some good on a global scale on matters like this, which is of course important, the internal wounds are the ones that need tending to the most right now.

And other nations have done this too. I don't have a link handy but I seem to remember reading something at one point about Sweden or Norway and their indigineous northern people. If I'm not mistaken I believe there was something similar to what happened here (sterilizations if I recall correctly, perhaps displacement too), perhaps not on as grand a scale but similar none the less.

 

[WLDB]

What would be the point? I mean, let's say the General Assembly generally assembles, and declares by unanimous vote, with lots of whereases and considerings, that Canada committed genocide against the Indians, and the Security Council does likewise. What will it change?

Nothing. Just something to talk about. With or without the UN i t should be at the very least acknowledged.

 

[lone wolf]

How much don't we know?

 

[PoliticalNick]

I'll stick with cynical...for now anyway.

As far as compensatory monies go, if someone were (for example) railroaded and falsely imprisoned for a good portion of their adult lives because of corrupt or inept judicial system, I'd say they are deserving of some kind of compensation. Can't undo it, can't give someone back years, but something has to be done. I feel the exact same way regarding adult survivors of residential schools. That's not 'throwing money', that is an attempt at compensation.

Regardless, there are people that will look at either scenario, be upset at the large payouts the government is making, and blame the recipient. It's that last part where it falls apart for me. I can understand being upset over large payments having to be made, but blaming the victim as opposed to directing the wrath where it properly belings, at the system of government that allowed it in the first place, is baffling.

So direct the wrath where it should go....to the individuals that were involved. Not at me or my children or grandchildren. That is where I come to the conclusion it is really about cash. Me and my offspri g are expected to foot the bill for someone else's wrongdoings. Why is that? I never sent anyone to a residential school. I never abused anyone. Yet for some reason I should pay the price. Well I think that is where all credibility of those still here that did suffer goes out the window. They don't care about justice or truth or apology they just want a large sum of money and don't really care if it comes from the resposible party or not.

 

[karrie]

You're losing credibility the more you repeat yourself without bringing forward any proof of your assertion that the FN brought this to the UN to get money.

 

[SLM]

So direct the wrath where it should go....to the individuals that were involved. Not at me or my children or grandchildren. That is where I come to the conclusion it is really about cash. Me and my offspri g are expected to foot the bill for someone else's wrongdoings. Why is that? I never sent anyone to a residential school. I never abused anyone. Yet for some reason I should pay the price. Well I think that is where all credibility of those still here that did suffer goes out the window. They don't care about justice or truth or apology they just want a large sum of money and don't really care if it comes from the resposible party or not.

Let me ask you one simple and analogous question.

Individual is falsely imprisoned for over 30 years; falsely accused, evidence is fabricated against him and he looses 30 years of his life. It's pretty standard to compensate said victims with a monetary settlement. He does have an authentic grievance against the society that did this to him.

Should we just say too bad, so sad and it sucks to be you but since I wasn't specifically involved in doing this so you're on your own?

 

[WLDB]

So direct the wrath where it should go....to the individuals that were involved. Not at me or my children or grandchildren. That is where I come to the conclusion it is really about cash. Me and my offspri g are expected to foot the bill for someone else's wrongdoings. Why is that? I never sent anyone to a residential school. I never abused anyone. Yet for some reason I should pay the price. Well I think that is where all credibility of those still here that did suffer goes out the window. They don't care about justice or truth or apology they just want a large sum of money and don't really care if it comes from the resposible party or not.

The government and country are responsible. Both still exist. The individuals involved in making the decisions are no longer there but the institutions themselves are still responsible. This isnt anything new. You can look at any issue involving money. Tax dollars the government gets from me no doubt goes to some things the government did when I was a small child or before I was even born. The government of today is increasing the debt which will not be paid off by those currently in government and likely wont be paid in their lifetimes. That just the way it works for countries. Hell, Germany didnt finish paying WW1 reparations til just a few years ago. The vast majority of the money collected was from people who had no involvement in that war at all. Sure, we can call it unfair and not like it but thats the way it is and I doubt that is going to change any time soon.

 

[L Gilbert]

Meh, who gives a damn about what the UN thinks or does?

 

[WLDB]

Meh, who gives a damn about what the UN thinks or does?

I dont. I could care less about whether this vote goes through or not. I do care about how the issue is handled within Canada though. Acknowledging the facts is important whether its the UN bringing it up, or someone from inside Canada.

 

[PoliticalNick]

Let me ask you one simple and analogous question.

Individual is falsely imprisoned for over 30 years; falsely accused, evidence is fabricated against him and he looses 30 years of his life. It's pretty standard to compensate said victims with a monetary settlement. He does have an authentic grievance against the society that did this to him.

Should we just say too bad, so sad and it sucks to be you but since I wasn't specifically involved in doing this so you're on your own?

But this isn't about going to jail and like you said before money can't give back that time and it doesn't punish the individuals responsible.

Think of this...I didn't vote until 1986. My kids didn't vote until recently in fact my youngest is only just eligible. So why should we be financially responsible for things we didn't control and actually had NO part in? Had someone come to me in 86 and asked my opinion on residential schools I would have said only for those who go volutarily.

It isn't my fault these things happened. 99% of it took place before I could vote and most of it before I was even born yet somehow I am responsible and accountable? Well I call bullsh*t on that. It makes no sense.

So now we are back to the simple question of what all this is about. If its not about money then I am happy to rewrite every history book to reflect the truth and issue umpteen official apologies and acknowledgements and we can get on with life. Unfortunately that isn't good enough so it really is about cash.

You're losing credibility the more you repeat yourself without bringing forward any proof of your assertion that the FN brought this to the UN to get money.

The proof is that rewriting the history books and a million official apologies isn't good enough. If that is all that is required to put all this to bed it can be done by next week. Obviously the truth and apology are o ly good enough if there is a large cash award attached. You make your own conclusions from thise facts.

 

[Goober]

Doesn't matter how many times you say it, Canada is not guilty of genocide. If we were there wouldn't be any indians left to claim those billions of dollars while paying no taxes.

Well Hitler did not get all the Jews during WW2 so does that mean there was no Genocide?

Fuk sakes, my jedi mind skills ain't what they used to be.


Oh well, I'm off to bed now anyway...can't wait to see my inbox come morning.







I'm here all week, try the buffet.




Night y'all. :smile:

Jedi-
Really-
Not think I

 

[PoliticalNick]

Well Hitler did not get all the Jews during WW2 so does that mean there was no Genocide?

Canada didn't exist independently until 1931 and the current nation of Canada didn't exist until 1982. How could it have committed genocide before that? How does a country commit genocide? It was people who did it, not a country. I sure know I never killed anyone let alone an entire race so why would you want to hold me accountable?

 

[karrie]

Obviously the truth and apology are o ly good enough if there is a large cash award attached. You make your own conclusions from thise facts.

This is not obvious. There are an awful lot of people in here talking, and only the one with a massive chip on his shoulder about first nations seems to have come to this 'obvious conclusion'.

 

[Goober]

Canada didn't exist independently until 1931 and the current nation of Canada didn't exist until 1982. How could it have committed genocide before that? How does a country commit genocide? It was people who did it, not a country. I sure know I never killed anyone let alone an entire race so why would you want to hold me accountable?

You are being well I will leave it at that.
But the facts speak for themselves.

 

[karrie]

Canada didn't exist independently until 1931 and the current nation of Canada didn't exist until 1982. How could it have committed genocide before that? How does a country commit genocide? It was people who did it, not a country. I sure know I never killed anyone let alone an entire race so why would you want to hold me accountable?

The charges don't all predate 1931.

And, once again the term genocide does not apply only if you successfully wiped out a whole race. Otherwise, there never would have ever been any genocides.

 

[PoliticalNick]

The individuals involved in making the decisions are no longer there

My point exactly. The people who were responsible aren't alive any more, at least no many are. You have my blessing to take any of them still alive to court and if I sit on the jury you can guarantee a nice big fat award.

but the institutions themselves are still responsible

These are the same institutions that pay out billions a year to the indians. Maybe we should ask for all that back and then talk about a settlement for damages.

Your logic is false anyway. Canada as a govt and institution had the death penalty for a long time. Does that make the institution financially responsible for wrongful death since we no longer have the death penalty? Does it make me financially responsible for those put to death under the law at that time? Of course not. That would just be silly right? So what is different about this situation? What happened was legal in Canada at the time. That doesn't make it better but nobody broke any laws especially me and my kids. If you want to open up things that were done long ago and set them against today's laws well then best be prepared to pay 90% tax rates for a few thousand years to pay off all those who were wronged and their heirs.

 

[WLDB]

Canada didn't exist independently until 1931 and the current nation of Canada didn't exist until 1982. How could it have committed genocide before that? How does a country commit genocide? It was people who did it, not a country. I sure know I never killed anyone let alone an entire race so why would you want to hold me accountable?

So who was our first PM? John A? RB Bennett? Trudeau? Domestically we had control over our own policies well before 1931.

Should we also be let off the hook for debt incurred by past and current governments because we specifically didnt take out the loans (or in some cases didnt vote for those who did)? Thats not the way it works. It never was and likely never will. My fathers gf inherited debts both from her father and husband when they died. There was no way to escape it. In that way we have done the same with mistakes financial and otherwise made by our predecessors. We wont be handing off a clean slate to the generations that are to come either. Sure, we are paying for things other people did, but in the future people will be paying for things we did. There is no escaping it.

 

[Goober]

My point exactly. The people who were responsible aren't alive any more, at least no many are. You have my blessing to take any of them still alive to court and if I sit on the jury you can guarantee a nice big fat award.

These are the same institutions that pay out billions a year to the indians. Maybe we should ask for all that back and then talk about a settlement for damages.

Your logic is false anyway. Canada as a govt and institution had the death penalty for a long time. Does that make the institution financially responsible for wrongful death since we no longer have the death penalty? Does it make me financially responsible for those put to death under the law at that time? Of course not. That would just be silly right? So what is different about this situation? What happened was legal in Canada at the time. That doesn't make it better but nobody broke any laws especially me and my kids. If you want to open up things that were done long ago and set them against today's laws well then best be prepared to pay 90% tax rates for a few thousand years to pay off all those who were wronged and their heirs.

Canadian Indian residential school system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A history of residential schools in Canada - Canada - CBC News