The Entitlement Mentality

[cj44]

We are focussed on the win loss column too much. Just because you lost
does not mean you lost. Yes we need competition and there are winners
and losers. The key is not to concentrate on winning and losing it is to
concentrate on learning the difference. Learning to take the lessons you
learned from the loss and adapt it to building a successful model for winning.
Henry Ford failed seven times before he got it right. Yes he lost but he
used the lessons learned to become successful. Our compalints are not
well founded as we the adults should be teaching our kids and grand kids
the difference the problem should not be left to schools alone.
Should the young folks be given an opportunity yes. Should they be paying
every cent for their education? Good question. I would be far better to pay
as a society for a good portion of that education. In return we would expect
the graduates to work for society for two or three years at a reduced rate
at the foundation positions in their field. it would teach humility, it would teach
them how hard people really have to work and it would prepare them through
education to understand life's success is not automatic.
Instead we will just call them rotten little buggers who should work for nothing

No No No. When we the taxpayers pay for other children's education, we are not really paying for their education. We are paying for their apartment, car payments, and beer. Everyone knows this. The student subsidies go toward their living expenses. Afterall, they are not expected to work and study at the same time. So they choose to do neither and live off the dole.

I disagree. To start with, I think society owes all its members food, clothing, shelter, medical care, safety, security, laws, and education. The reason I list these is that this is what even the most primitive of societies provided to their members. I would suggest that providing these things, at a minimum, is the whole reason societies exist in the first place.

We owe "society" the opportunity to provide for oneself. Otherwise we enslave that "society" to its masters. The masters being the ones doling out the provisions. God gave everyone a brain and talent. Free the people. Let them use their own brains to provide for themselves and families. Give charity to those who cannot care for themselves - the disabled, sick, etc.

This notion of "owing society all things" is the cancer of freedom.

 

[karrie]

Take it easy Karrie. I can and do discern a person's thoughts based on what comes out of their mouths. Kutchner or Kutcher or whatever his name is has leaned left. Apparently, you would rather scream "DISCRIMINATION and BIGOT". yawn.....

No, I said it's a perfect lesson in not being a bigot, I never called you one.

 

[cj44]

No, I said it's a perfect lesson in not being a bigot, I never called you one.

I always scored low on reading comprehension. And, I have some trouble with the maths as well.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

We owe "society" the opportunity to provide for oneself. Otherwise we enslave that "society" to its masters. The masters being the ones doling out the provisions. God gave everyone a brain and talent. Free the people. Let them use their own brains to provide for themselves and families. Give charity to those who cannot care for themselves - the disabled, sick, etc.

This notion of "owing society all things" is the cancer of freedom.

Good thing that's not the topic here. The topic is what society owes its members. What its members owe society is a different topic. We may or may not get to that later.

The thing to focus on is the question: what does a civilised society owe its members?

 

[55Mercury]

the bare minimum... which varies according to who you talk to.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

the bare minimum... which varies according to who you talk to.

OK. What's the bare minimum in, say, education?

 

[karrie]

I always scored low on reading comprehension. And, I have some trouble with the maths as well.

I made a mental note to be careful of phrasing when using the word.

 

[cj44]

Good thing that's not the topic here. The topic is what society owes its members. What its members owe society is a different topic. We may or may not get to that later.

The thing to focus on is the question: what does a civilised society owe its members?

Define society.

Say it however you want - Society (government) owes its members nothing except the following:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Define society.

Say it however you want - Society (government) owes its members nothing except the following:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

So, would you support shutting down the military, the courts, the post office, the roads and rail, police, &c?

 

[karrie]

Define society.

Say it however you want - Society (government) owes its members nothing except the following:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That may be what society owes. But, you are conflating terms by including 'government' under the umbrella of 'society'. My government takes from me. As such, it owes me a return on that investment. I am, actually, entitled. Expecting something from my government for all that it takes, is not the same as expecting something from society at large. They're two separate issues that people are attempting to debate as one.

 

[taxslave]

Re: Entitlement Mentality

I disagree. To start with, I think society owes all its members food, clothing, shelter, medical care, safety, security, laws, and education. The reason I list these is that this is what even the most primitive of societies provided to their members. I would suggest that providing these things, at a minimum, is the whole reason societies exist in the first place.

That I disagree with. WE may owe basic services to those that cannot look after themselves but we do NOT owe it to the freeloaders that are too lazy to do for themselves.

 

[cj44]

Now you have thrown all things into a blender and hit the mix button. We would have to take these items one by one as they transverse executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government. Hard for the members of "society" to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness, when we are under attack from foreign lands.

Arghhh. I need time to better communicate my thoughts and at present I am under siege from those pesky details of life that need attending.

That may be what society owes. But, you are conflating terms by including 'government' under the umbrella of 'society'. My government takes from me. As such, it owes me a return on that investment. I am, actually, entitled. Expecting something from my government for all that it takes, is not the same as expecting something from society at large. They're two separate issues that people are attempting to debate as one.

Please define then so we are able to converse.

OK. What's the bare minimum in, say, education?

Only a pencil that we make the school children carve out of wood for themselves. (Said with loud maniacal laugh as I chew on my gold coins)

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Re: Entitlement Mentality

That I disagree with. WE may owe basic services to those that cannot look after themselves but we do NOT owe it to the freeloaders that are too lazy to do for themselves.

Once again, you are already into the second half of the discussion: what does the individual owe society?

Now you have thrown all things into a blender and hit the mix button. We would have to take these items one by one as they transverse executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government. Hard for the members of "society" to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness, when we are under attack from foreign lands.

Also hard to pursue them when you're hungry, naked, and unsheltered, yet you deny that people are entitled to food, clothing, and shelter. So why is defence such a big deal?

You are not entitled to defence or safety. You said so yourself. You are entitled to life (until it ends), liberty, and the pursuit (not the achievement) of happiness. Not safety or defence.

 

[damngrumpy]

You are branding education as an expense, I don't I call education and the spinoffs
temporarily as investments. No sense paying for the books and class time if the
student can't get there or they can't eat and study too. Taxpayers sure don't mind
their benefit when these kids discover a valualable asset and society or government
puts taxes against it. From some I hear investment and cooperative effort from
others I hear its all about me and I shouldn't have to pay my share and its a crime
we have to pay for someone else. Yes there are times we have to do that its about
the national family which you are part of it like it or not. Its also part of being an adult.
I don't like forking out fax money either for some things but I do so just the same.
Personally I think corporations should be hit hard with no deductions. I also realize
if we did that there would be fewer jobs, no reserarch money spent and we would soon
be near a third world country. Therefore I understand the monies sometimes spent
on crorporate tax breaks is a benefit to us all providing they don't put it in their pocket.
Entitlements are just that receivng back the investment you put into them. The personal
whining we do has nothing to do with reality and big boys and gilrs pay their share to
run the business we own together the government. Like any compnay we put money in
for programs we access later, legitimate entitlements is what they are. Investing in young
peoples education is an ivestment including the expenses encurred getting the education.
and should be. We get it back later in so many otehr ways.

 

[cj44]

You are branding education as an expense, I don't I call education and the spinoffs
temporarily as investments. No sense paying for the books and class time if the
student can't get there or they can't eat and study too. Taxpayers sure don't mind
their benefit when these kids discover a valualable asset and society or government
puts taxes against it. From some I hear investment and cooperative effort from
others I hear its all about me and I shouldn't have to pay my share and its a crime
we have to pay for someone else. Yes there are times we have to do that its about
the national family which you are part of it like it or not. Its also part of being an adult.
I don't like forking out fax money either for some things but I do so just the same.
Personally I think corporations should be hit hard with no deductions. I also realize
if we did that there would be fewer jobs, no reserarch money spent and we would soon
be near a third world country. Therefore I understand the monies sometimes spent
on crorporate tax breaks is a benefit to us all providing they don't put it in their pocket.
Entitlements are just that receivng back the investment you put into them. The personal
whining we do has nothing to do with reality and big boys and gilrs pay their share to
run the business we own together the government. Like any compnay we put money in
for programs we access later, legitimate entitlements is what they are. Investing in young
peoples education is an ivestment including the expenses encurred getting the education.
and should be. We get it back later in so many otehr ways.

Grumpy, I would agree except for the fact our education system stinks. Why give a "free" stinking education?
We should lower corporate taxes. Then there would be more jobs - good paying jobs for people. I think everyone has about had it with all the $12 an hour jobs.

 

[darkbeaver]

This is why I like team sports for my kids. "Dad, I tried my very best and we still lost." "Yup. There's no E for Effort in the real world son. Next time when you get the chance, you hack that f**king star player right across the wrists, got it?" Joking...

But they learn the essence of competition in a way they don't in school anymore.

Competition is easy to learn and well fitted to the lazy. Cooperation builds winning teams and winning lives. You may argue the point but you cannot ever win. Competition eventually leads the individual to catastrophic failure.

Grumpy, I would agree except for the fact our education system stinks. Why give a "free" stinking education?
We should lower corporate taxes. Then there would be more jobs - good paying jobs for people. I think everyone has about had it with all the $12 an hour jobs.

Lower corporate taxes for more good jobs? Like the recently signed TPP agreements eh? You would vote yourself into a salt mine if left unattended with a pencil.

 

[cj44]

Competition is easy to learn and well fitted to the lazy. Cooperation builds winning teams and winning lives. You may argue the point but you cannot ever win. Competition eventually leads the individual to catastrophic failure.

Lower corporate taxes for more good jobs? Like the recently signed TPP agreements eh? You would vote yourself into a salt mine if left unattended with a pencil.

Mr Beaver, we rarely find ourselves in agreement. You speak upside down. "Competition is well fitted to the lazy"????????

Not up to date on the TPP agreement so I will not comment. But, yes, lowering corporate income taxes will result in more and better paying jobs. It has to do with competition, but I see you are kind of down on competition. Businesses want the best employees and will offer the best pay/benefits to get them. Instead of giving the money via taxes to the government, the corporations will invest it in their employees.

Salt mine? Pencil?

 

[karrie]

Please define then so we are able to converse.

Society at large, people you haven't entered into trade and/or contracts with, you are not entitled to anything from. Government does not fit that bill, as they have catalogued, billed, and police you. For that, you are entitled to expect things from them.

Grumpy, I would agree except for the fact our education system stinks. Why give a "free" stinking education?
We should lower corporate taxes. Then there would be more jobs - good paying jobs for people. I think everyone has about had it with all the $12 an hour jobs.

lower corporate taxes, and remove the education that individual tax payers pay for.... without lowering individual taxes? That's backwards.

But, yes, lowering corporate income taxes will result in more and better paying jobs. It has to do with competition....?

Current market conditions mean that if you work for a publicly traded company, any and all spare revenue is shunted over to shareholders, whenever and wherever possible. THAT is the competition they are in. THAT is their priority. Giving corporate tax cuts does not translate directly into higher pay for workers. It simply translates into more profit for the company. What they do with that profit is not guaranteed.

 

[petros]

That Ellen guy and Ashton chick piss me off.

 

[Nuggler]

You need to make an effort

He needs to be less of a ****ing idiot.