The Entitlement Mentality

[L Gilbert]

Um, to those who were trying to define the purpose of gov't, I'd like to point out that the purposes vary depending upon the level of gov't and also the type. EG: federal gov'ts have different mandates than municipal gov'ts and so on.

Societies were developed to benefit their populations by providing support from the collective, sometimes in ways that gov'ts do not..

 

[damngrumpy]

Firstly we confuse sometimes what an entitlement is. Entitlements are things
we expect for nothing. Sometimes people talk about social programs as
entitlements they are not in most cases. For example politicians sold people
on the idea of paying more taxes in return for social programs down the road
Those are not entitlements they are called getting what one paid for. It's time
people understood and made mention of what are entitlements and what are
programs bought and paid for. I should also point out yes people paid small
amounts for substantial service. But that is how insurance works as well
everyone pays premiums and some collect some don't. Well if you paid in
and the government mismanaged the money that is not the fault of the citizen.
Quebec actually put the money toward the programs they were intended for
and they are better off. The rest of the governments filled potholes and gave
tax breaks to friends now the piper wants to be paid.

 

[Sal]

Who do you think should be on the hook for it?

I think it would be amazing if companies had a social conscience and paid their employees a liveable wage. If they can't afford to do that and need to look to the government (us) to pay for them to maintain staff, they are doing something wrong.

Barring that, it would be wonderful if their employees with kids found other jobs that did pay a liveable wage. Then these companies would be unable to operate. Students would be their only option and they are not available during the day. Bet the wages would go up then.

Wages in the western provinces are higher than they are here in Ontario because they can't keep employees unless they pay good wages. My job for instance, pays on average 20 to 25 thousand dollars a year more than here. Are they making that much more on that individual than they do on me...I think not. They are just desperate.

Desperate employers manage to pay better wages, benefits etc.

 

[Goober]

To start, I generally don't buy into generalizations, but that practice does go both ways.

You're going to have to start including some definitions here for this discussion to proceed... The descriptor of 'those that are often overlooked' is an extremely broad category and is highly subject to individual interpretation.

In addition to the above, there also has to be some kind of baseline that we can work from. I'm sure that you would agree that the cost of living in Toronto is very different from the cost of living in a place like Sundre, Olds or Rocky Mountain House (AB examples for those of you outside of AB). Attempting to apply a one-size-fits-all formula is an ineffective solution.

So, this takes us back to the fundamental issue of 'entitlement'.. How do we define it? Do we attach certain responsibilities to all members of society regardsless of their earning potential or ability? What is deemed the base level of subsistence? Does society apply any restrictions and or expectations in exchange for support?

The lists go on, including how far do we push the 'haves' into the corner before they suffer?... I believe that this is one of the larger factors that was in your initial question about increased pressure on the middle class

Our corp tax rates were below the OECD levels in 2010 - and rates were still lowered in Canada- The disparity for income growth, salary etc middle class is /has become stagnant. Poverty is at approx 9-10 %-
As to the haves suffering, well I will leave that one alone.

Yes there is a difference in costs from 1 area to another.

LICO - Varies according to the variables that are included or not included. Here is Stats can

Low income definitions

Low income cut-offs

Recession stalls progress on poverty; almost one in 10 Canadians poor: StatsCan | Toronto Star
In its first detailed, national picture of what happened to income in Canada during the recession, the agency says the poverty rate edged up in 2009 to 9.6 per cent — the second straight year that poverty has grown after more than a decade of steady declines.

About 3.2 million people now live in low income, including 634,000 children.

Indeed, children were vulnerable during the recession, with their poverty rate rising to 9.5 per cent in 2009 from 9.0 per cent a year earlier.

But the picture of the recession is one of stagnation rather than complete catastrophe. The median after-tax income for Canadian families was $63,800 in 2009 — about the same as a year earlier.

Poor In Canada: Statistics Canada Reports One In 10 Canadians Are Living In Poverty
About 3.2 million people now live in low income, including 634,000 children.

Indeed, children were vulnerable during the recession, with their poverty rate rising to 9.5 per cent in 2009 from 9.0 per cent a year earlier.

But the picture of the recession is one of stagnation rather than complete catastrophe. The median after-tax income for Canadian families was $63,800 in 2009 -- about the same as a year earlier.

In the past, recessions have deepened poverty in Canada for years, and exacerbated the gap between rich and poor. Many analysts feared the pattern was repeating itself.

So far, that doesn't seem to be the case. While the national poverty picture isn't pretty, the number of people in the top, middle and bottom echelons of income in Canada remained fairly steady as the recession took hold.

About 55 per cent of Canadians benefitted from an increase in their after-tax income in 2009, while 45 per cent suffered a decline. Before the recession, in 2007, income rose for 58 per cent and declined for 42 per cent.

Poverty among seniors fell in 2009, to 5.2 per cent from 5.8 per cent in 2008. Seniors have the lowest incidence of poverty of all the demographics, according to the main Statistics Canada measure of poverty, called the low-income cut-off.

And single mothers have also shown remarkable improvement. While poverty is still high for single moms, at 21.5 per cent, that's an improvement from the 23.4 per cent in 2008, and a continuation of the steady declines noted since 2002.

Now, about 22 per cent children living with a single mother were considered poor, compared with a troubling 56 per cent in 1996.

 

[L Gilbert]

Firstly we confuse sometimes what an entitlement is. Entitlements are things
we expect for nothing.

Not to me. My opinion is that I am entitled to receive my CPP when I get to be that age because I have paid into it for a number of years. Things the gov't spends my tax dollars on are also things I think I am entitled to, like roads, healthcare, education, policing, fire protection, etc..

Sometimes people talk about social programs as
entitlements they are not in most cases. For example politicians sold people
on the idea of paying more taxes in return for social programs down the road
Those are not entitlements they are called getting what one paid for. It's time
people understood and made mention of what are entitlements and what are
programs bought and paid for. I should also point out yes people paid small
amounts for substantial service. But that is how insurance works as well
everyone pays premiums and some collect some don't. Well if you paid in
and the government mismanaged the money that is not the fault of the citizen.
Quebec actually put the money toward the programs they were intended for
and they are better off. The rest of the governments filled potholes and gave
tax breaks to friends now the piper wants to be paid.

According to Oxford's dictionary, entitlements are things people have a right to. I have a right to whatever gov'ts say I have a right to. I am entitled to those things.
So if anyone is confused, I'd say it was you.

 

[damngrumpy]

We are one country doesn't matter where you live if you paid for a service you
get the payment you expect. Suppose the life insurance company said oh you
live in a lower cost area so we'll cut you retirement payment to reflect that.
There would be hell to pay. I paid my share and my return is not negotiable

 

[pgs]

We are one country doesn't matter where you live if you paid for a service you
get the payment you expect. Suppose the life insurance company said oh you
live in a lower cost area so we'll cut you retirement payment to reflect that.
There would be hell to pay. I paid my share and my return is not negotiable

Welcome to Greece .

 

[JLM]

Re: Entitlement Mentality

So. . . in a civilised society in the 21st century, like Canada, exactly what is every person entitled to? And how should a civilised society go about delivering those entitlements?

I think every person should be entitled to whatever he/she is willing to work for. (As long as it's legal and doesn't harm anyone else)

Firstly we confuse sometimes what an entitlement is. Entitlements are things
we expect for nothing. Sometimes people talk about social programs as
entitlements they are not in most cases. For example politicians sold people
on the idea of paying more taxes in return for social programs down the road
Those are not entitlements they are called getting what one paid for. It's time
people understood and made mention of what are entitlements and what are
programs bought and paid for. I should also point out yes people paid small
amounts for substantial service. But that is how insurance works as well
everyone pays premiums and some collect some don't. Well if you paid in
and the government mismanaged the money that is not the fault of the citizen.
Quebec actually put the money toward the programs they were intended for
and they are better off. The rest of the governments filled potholes and gave
tax breaks to friends now the piper wants to be paid.

I doubt if anyone is entitled to something they or someone else on their behalf hasn't paid for.

Apparently, the fight against poverty that was started 50 or 60 years ago hasn't worked. The only solution is better education and less kids. But until that happens, poverty is here to stay!

JMHO

That was the gist of what I was trying to convey in another thread, but people weren't "buying" it. I guess those of us who have lived through it know. I doubt if whatever happens you'll get rid of poverty, human nature being what it is.

 

[Nuggler]

Re: Entitlement Mentality

K, so your contribution is going to be sarcasm and petty carping. Thanks.

Usually we rely on you for that.

 

[captain morgan]

I think it would be amazing if companies had a social conscience and paid their employees a liveable wage. If they can't afford to do that and need to look to the government (us) to pay for them to maintain staff, they are doing something wrong.

Barring that, it would be wonderful if their employees with kids found other jobs that did pay a liveable wage. Then these companies would be unable to operate. Students would be their only option and they are not available during the day. Bet the wages would go up then.

Wages in the western provinces are higher than they are here in Ontario because they can't keep employees unless they pay good wages. My job for instance, pays on average 20 to 25 thousand dollars a year more than here. Are they making that much more on that individual than they do on me...I think not. They are just desperate.

Desperate employers manage to pay better wages, benefits etc.

Companies do have a social conscious Sal. Pointing to one or 2 that are notorious for not representing the mainstream does not mean that every corp is like them.

But you did hit on an important theme in that it really is the impetus for the employee to find a suitable position moreso than demand that all positions adhere to your definition.

You mentioned that you could see a $20-25k increase in wages by simple virtue of moving West... Have you ever looked into that option?

Further, is this an issue of those employers in the West being 'desperate' or possibly is there an oversupply of qualified individuals in your locale that contributes to the wage differential?

Our corp tax rates were below the OECD levels in 2010 - and rates were still lowered in Canada-

How did the rest of the OECD do during the last recession?

Interesting that you don't quote those stats, especially the personal tax rates along with the level of social program funding and how much of the GDP it represents

The disparity for income growth, salary etc middle class is /has become stagnant. Poverty is at approx 9-10 %-

Exactly what course of action are you recommending here Goobs? Is your idea to get corps to pay more in taxes? Maybe increase the rates on the highest earners?.. You do understand that as those groups alter their situations that the next group in line is the middle class, right?... That is the group that you initially started out in defending.

A little newsflash for ya; every society will always have a spectrum of people that represent different levels of 'wealth'... Wealth redistribution systems are also temporary solutions at best... One might even argue that the continual increases in that system work more to increase dependency than it does to have any impact on solving the problems that you go on to identify

As to the haves suffering, well I will leave that one alone.

France instituted an uber progressive tax system that might represent what you are looking for... Hasn't worked-out to well for 'em.

You can look it up for yourself

In its first detailed, national picture of what happened to income in Canada during the recession, the agency says the poverty rate edged up in 2009 to 9.6 per cent — the second straight year that poverty has grown after more than a decade of steady declines.

Poverty rates generally do increase during times of recession... And this takes us back to the middle class and the status of the corporate health... If you feel that the solution is to start gouging this demographic, well, there will be fall out and that result isn't an increase in wages and more hiring.

So, any thoughts on where that leads us?.. Impact on child poverty, entitlements?

The cycle is pretty clear

But the picture of the recession is one of stagnation rather than complete catastrophe. The median after-tax income for Canadian families was $63,800 in 2009 — about the same as a year earlier..... About 55 per cent of Canadians benefitted from an increase in their after-tax income in 2009, while 45 per cent suffered a decline. Before the recession, in 2007, income rose for 58 per cent and declined for 42 per cent.

Those bastards - someone ought to make them (the 55% that is) pay, and bleed, and then pay some more.. How dare they get ahead!

In the past, recessions have deepened poverty in Canada for years, and exacerbated the gap between rich and poor. Many analysts feared the pattern was repeating itself.

What made the 'experts' believe that it would be different this time?

Was it that Canada now has 2 official languages?

Not to me. My opinion is that I am entitled to receive my CPP when I get to be that age because I have paid into it for a number of years. Things the gov't spends my tax dollars on are also things I think I am entitled to, like roads, healthcare, education, policing, fire protection, etc.. According to Oxford's dictionary, entitlements are things people have a right to. I have a right to whatever gov'ts say I have a right to. I am entitled to those things.
So if anyone is confused, I'd say it was you.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news Les, but there is a distinct possibility that despite your having paid a specific amount into CPP, there is a strong possibility that you will not receive fair compensation back when the time comes for you to collect... This takes me to your comment that "I have a right to whatever gov'ts say I have a right to" - the problem with this position is that the gvt changes the rules at their leisure... The CPP entitlement/benefit that you signed-up for (so to speak) has drastically changed as a function of the gvt having changed the rules over the years.

Yes, the gvt says that you're entitled to it, but I wager that the version that will exist when the time comes will be a shadow of what it was when you initially started paying

 

[mentalfloss]

Some people think that we are entitled to suck the Earth of all of its resources.

Those are the people that suffer the worst degree of this whole entitlement syndrome.

 

[captain morgan]

You don't get it, do you?

They are supplying you, MF.. Without your demand, that oil, ore and timber would remain in the ground where it is today

 

[Goober]

There is room for tax increases. There is no way I support Frances tax policy.
We had a multitude of programs, Fe-Prov which create inefficiency.

 

[captain morgan]

There is room for tax increases. There is no way I support Frances tax policy.
We had a multitude of programs, Fe-Prov which create inefficiency.

I see.. So do you propose a straight-across-the-board increase on everyone?

 

[Goober]

I see.. So do you propose a straight-across-the-board increase on everyone?

Nope. Nor do I believe that a flat tax is fair.

 

[captain morgan]

Well then - who do you propose gets taxed and how much?

 

[Goober]

Well then - who do you propose gets taxed and how much?

Let me clarify Nope.

GST increase to 7 % over a period of 2-4 years.

Increase Bus Tax 1 %

Faster write downs for companies (capital costs) that invest in new infrastructure, equipment,upgrades etc.

Not sure if this applies in Canada, It does in the US. Companies cannot stash profits overseas and wait for a favorable tax change, this is where profits are left overseas for multiple years.

Dianne Francis mentioned this one. Subsidiarity in Canada, highly profitable but due to the tax codes can be used to dump other costs incurred, outside of the country and lowering taxes to a negligible amount.

Coordinate all trades training and setting one standard for apprentices to journeymen quota on job sites. End result an increase in the allowable number of apprentices in some provinces.

Job training is a mess. Focus more on trades, provide income supplement for the first 2 years of training where the apprentice has to return for trades training.

Relocation assistance to where the jobs are. A person of 35- 40 still has decades of productivity left.

Social assistance, EI - The first impedes a person to succeed due to claw backs, the second is seen as an entitlement program in many areas of Canada.

 

[captain morgan]

Let me clarify Nope.

You did below.. See comments

GST increase to 7 % over a period of 2-4 years.

This is a (form) of flat tax.. The kicker is that it is in addition to the various forms of income tax presently in use.

Increase Bus Tax 1 %

Corp tax.

Read these. You'll notice that it impacts the very issues that you identified in earlier posts (child poverty, low income assistance, etc).

The Fiscal Cliff Deal: Charity Takes a Hit - Forbes
Payroll Tax Increase Expected to Suppress Charitable Giving

Faster write downs for companies (capital costs) that invest in new infrastructure, equipment,upgrades etc.

A positive influence in the short run, but the present system allows for the same (similar) benefit over a longer period.

Not sure if this applies in Canada, It does in the US. Companies cannot stash profits overseas and wait for a favorable tax change, this is where profits are left overseas for multiple years.

It applies but you may be mislead on the wording... A Canadian company can not (easily) move domestic profits to an offshore entity without paying taxes in the jurisdiction in which the revenues were generated.

NorAm (Western) corps are setting-up offshore operations to operate in those nations.. The profits stay in the nation in which the money was made, and doesn't come back to Canada to be assessed the additional tax.

In the worst cases, the company moves HQ to a lower tax jurisdiction and repatriates all the profits (after paying tax in the nation where it was made) to the lower tax country (new HQ) where the money gets reinvested back to where they need it.

Haliburton is a great example of this. The US kept increasing the tax burden on them, so they moved to the UAE (or Saudi) although they still operate in the US... The revs from the US are subject to tax, but the profit leaves and only trickles back as necessary... The effect is that their new country of origin sees the long term tax bennies to their communities (in addition to the employment, etc)

Dianne Francis mentioned this one. Subsidiarity in Canada, highly profitable but due to the tax codes can be used to dump other costs incurred, outside of the country and lowering taxes to a negligible amount.

That is not so easy, at least the way it is written above

Coordinate all trades training and setting one standard for apprentices to journeymen quota on job sites. End result an increase in the allowable number of apprentices in some provinces.

Good idea. I assume though that it would be the industry that would organize this and not gvt

Job training is a mess. Focus more on trades, provide income supplement for the first 2 years of training where the apprentice has to return for trades training.

Another good idea

Relocation assistance to where the jobs are. A person of 35- 40 still has decades of productivity left.

There are many companies doing this already

Social assistance, EI - The first impedes a person to succeed due to claw backs, the second is seen as an entitlement program in many areas of Canada.

I'm on the fence on this one... There are elements that will (or can) cut both ways

 

[mentalfloss]

You don't get it, do you?

They are supplying you, MF.. Without your demand, that oil, ore and timber would remain in the ground where it is today

Without my demand or without your demand.

 

[captain morgan]

Without my demand or without your demand.

You're the one with the problem.

I'm curious why you (and those like-minded folk) don't curtail your consumption in order to offset the demand.