Sixth Annual Israeli Apartheid Week

Are all human being entitled to fundamental human rights?

  • Yes, all people are entitled to food, clothing, shelter, medicine...

    Votes: 11 64.7%
  • No, only some people are entitled to human rights.

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • Palestinians don't qualify as human beings.

    Votes: 5 29.4%

  • Total voters
    17

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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When i have time I may just do that - But i do not consider Arafat as anything more that a terrorist and a massive thief -
So were Begin and Rabin but it's to be expected from terrorists no matter which side.

When you do you'll find one consistant theme. Palestine wanting this to be settled by UN and justice equally enforced for any violent action whether chrissy, muzzy or heeb.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Millions of people lived on that land before Israel existed. When they fled due to war, they have a right to return to their homes and reclaim their property as per international law. Denying this right is a war crime. Ethnically cleansing land of people because they have the wrong religion, is a war crime.

The part of Israel where the Israeli government builds Jewish only colonies for their Jewish citizens over the bulldozed non-citizen Arab homes, farms and businesses is an Apartheid system.


Are you going to claim that Arabs living in the West Bank have the same rights and freedoms as the Jewish Israeli citizens living in their Jewish only colonies? One land, two peoples. As a rdirect result of Israeli policies, one group has full rights, the other has no rights. That's apartheid.


As we debate this, Israel's ethnic cleansing continues in the WEst Bank and East Jerusalem. The Israeli government evicts people from their homes and demolishes them. Then they build homes for Jewish citizens to hide the evidence of their ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile the Arabs live on the streets, having lost their homes without a cent of compensation. And you support this war crime?

This war crime has been going on for over 60 yeares now. It was a war crime back then, it was a war crimes 30 years ago and its still a war crime now.





Biden's strong rebuke was really a gentle chiding, for political purposes only. Effectively, Israel is getting American tax payers to pay for settlement expansion with billions in ecoomic aid each year. Most of the bombs, bullets and chemical weapons Israelis use to kill Palestinian civilian are made in the US and bought with American tax dollars. American industrialists are making a killing off killing Palestinian woman and children. Which gives this Biden statement a double meaning:




As far as Jimmy Carter being anti-Semitic, that's pure BS. Read his letter regarding this type of slander:
The Carter Center - Advancing Human Rights and Alleviating Suffering

If Carter is anti-Semtitic, then I guess that makes the Nobel Committee anti-Semititc too:


How about the ICRC, are they also anti-Semitic?


The International Committee of the Red Cross 2001 Annual Report:


Technical nothing. Its a blatant war crime.

Your abuse of the term anti-semitic to label anyone who dares point out Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity reduces its meaning to nothing.

Numpty
I posted a question for Just the fact regarding your duplicitious posts - care to answer or is past your bedtime.
 

earth_as_one

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No belligerents in this conflict deserves support. Not Hamas and not Israel. Both Hamas and Israeli leaders are guilty of war crimes. Israeli leaders are also guilty of crimes against humanity, the crime of apartheid. Canada should condemn all war crimes and crimes against humanity in this conflict, not just Palestinian ones.

Regarding the Americans, their support of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity is on a scale which can only be described as obscene:

The U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million each day* in military aid and is giving the Palestinians $0** in military aid during Fiscal Year 2009.

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”...

...By FY2013, we will be sending Israel $3.15 billion a year (or an average of $8.6 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.5% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”...

...Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “In 2007, it was the 8th largest arms supplier to the developing world.”...

US Aid to Israel and the Palestinians

That's criminal.

Israel should be treated the same as other countries which commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. No aid along with economic sanctions. Charities which should contribute to Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity should be treated the same way as charities that support Palestinian war crimes.

That's what Israeli apartheid week was about. Raising awareness, and doing the right thing, in the cause of peace, justice and freedom.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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EAO

Numpty

I asked some questions - are they above being answered - if they are to complicated let me know and I will try to simplify them for you - i realize that these types of questions, hard to answer, caught making duplicitious statements - are quite difficult for you. But being older and sooemtimes that adds a little wee bit of wisdom i am more than willing to listen to you either changing the, admitting a mistake in thought, which happens to us all. That is a sign to you that forgivness is one the greatest gifts a man or woman can give.
 

Goober

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Numpty -
regarding US arms for Israel - Who armed Egypt, Syria, Libya during the 50's and 60's and 70's- or does that matter. of course you would require some knowledge of the times - Do you have that? Or is that nor not relevant
 

earth_as_one

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Classic projection. It was the increasing scale and frequency of Arab attacks on Jews that made it impossible for Israel to keep ignoring. They tried to ignore it. Showed restraint. But enough was enough. That's why there was war in Gaza, that's why they're building a wall, and that's why there are checkpoints.

Classic BS!

A ceasefire agreement only works if both sides respect it. During the 2008 ceasefire agreement, Hamas reduced the number of rocket and mortar attacks by 99.99% by November 2008. In response, Israel raised aid shipments from 10% of normal to 12.8% and deliberately bombed Gaza in November 2008 to restart the war.

Hamas proved their ability to reduce and nearly eliminate rocket and mortar attacks against Israel:


Its easy to tell from the above chart, that the ceasefire began on June 18, 2008 and ended in November.

Hamas never fired a single rocket or mortar at Israel until Israel broke the ceasefire on November 5, 2008, the same day Americans elected Barack Obama. Despite best efforts by Hamas to maintain a ceasefire, other militant groups did violate the ceasefire and Hamas arrested them:

GAZA, July 10 (Reuters) - Hamas arrested two militants who fired cross-border rockets into southern Israel from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, in the first such detentions since the Islamists and Israel agreed a truce last month, militants said.

An official with the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant faction of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement, said Hamas security forces arrested two of its members who were involved in firing two rockets at Israel.

"They chased the two after they fired the rockets and abducted them," the official said....

Hamas arrests militants after rocket fire | Reuters

Meanwhile here is how Israel held up their end of the ceasefire agreement:

Israel... permitted as many as 90 daily truck shipments to enter Gaza, up from around 70 per day,[85] but the increase in supply trucks never began to approach the 700 trucks that Hamas thought it was going to get...

Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
700 trucks per day was the amount of aid Gaza normally received before Israel imposed their illegal blockade. The expection was that Israel would allow the free flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza and clearly that never happened.

Israel claims they attacked Gaza because of the rocket and mortar attacks, but that's not true. Israel's leaders ended their ceasefire the same day Americans elected Barack Obama, in an effort to provoke a new round of fighting in time for the February 15, 2009 Israeli elections.

The killing of six Palestinian militants in Gaza by Israeli forces in a ground incursion and air strikes on 4 November was followed by a barrage of dozens of Palestinian rockets on nearby towns and villages in the south of Israel. The Palestinian attacks caused no casualties or damage. The Palestinian attacks caused no casualties or damage, but there is a real risk that any further armed actions by either side would risk igniting another deadly campaign.

The ceasefire was agreed between Israel and Hamas last June and has been in force since then. It has been the single most important factor in reducing civilian casualties and attacks on civilians to the lowest level since the outbreak of the uprising (intifada) more than eight years ago.

The ceasefire has brought enormous improvements in the quality of life in Sderot and other Israeli villages near Gaza, where before the ceasefire residents lived in fear of the next Palestinian rocket strike. However, nearby in the Gaza Strip the Israeli blockade remains in place and the population has so far seen few dividends from the ceasefire. Since June 2007, the entire population of 1.5 million Palestinians has been trapped in Gaza, with dwindling resources and an economy in ruins. Some 80 percent of the population now depend on the trickle of international aid that the Israeli army allows in.

Gaza ceasefire at risk | Amnesty International

Some ceasefire agreement. One side is trying to stop violence while the other side uses food and medicine as a weapon and deliberately commits unprovoked acts of violence.

The same day Israel deliberately violated the ceasefire agreement with an attack inside Gaza, a UN High Commissioner for Human Rights made this statement about Israel's crime against humanity blockade which remained more or less in place throughout the cesefire period. Here is how she describes conditions in Gaza:
4 November 2008

A former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, has told the BBC she was taken aback by the "terrible" conditions in Gaza on a recent visit.

Mrs Robinson said it was "almost unbelievable" that the world did not care about what she called "a shocking violation of so many human rights".

...Israel came to a truce with Palestinian groups in June this year, but Mrs Robinson said this had had little effect on people's lives and "just brought a bitter taste in the mouth".

She said people in Gaza were the responsibility of Israel and suggested that ordinary Israelis did not understand the situation as they "couldn't possibly support it if they really did".

The former commissioner called on European countries and the rest of the world to do more to understand the "inhumane" conditions.

She said she expected that she would be criticised for her comments but that the issue had to be addressed.

"When I see 1.4 million trapped in a situation of collective punishment, without rights, I have to raise that, and I will go on raising it," she said...

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Gaza residents 'terribly trapped'

Two attacks in October 2008, down from 355 in May 2008 is significant. Given time, Hamas might have succeeeded in reducing the number of attacks to 0. Where is the reciprocity on Israel's part? A cruel blockade and an unprovoked attack. So yes your post is classic BS, JTF.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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Classic BS!

A ceasefire agreement only works if both sides respect it. During the 2008 ceasefire agreement,...

...Two attacks in October 2008, down from 355 in May 2008 is significant. Given time, Hamas might have succeeeded in reducing the number of attacks to 0. Where is the reciprocity on Israel's part? A cruel blockade and an unprovoked attack. So yes your post is classic BS, JTF.

Uh huh. What about 2000-2008. All Jews left Gaza in what, 2005? Why were Palestinians still firing rockets out of Gaza in 2008? October 2008 is eleventh hour EAO. It's too little too late. There's no reason to believe the attacks would have gone to 0. Israel did what she had to do to protect Israeli's. Period.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Palestinian militants drove the illegal colonialists out of Gaza in 2005 with violence. I disagree with violence, but Israel only pulled out of Gaza when they realized their position in Gaza became undefendable. At the same time Israel retreated from Gaza, they quietly seized more than twice as much land in the West Bank where Palestinians are less militant and more cooperative. Most of the Israelis that were removed from their illegal colonies in Gaza ended up in illegal colonies in the West Bank.

Here is how Israel rewards West Bank Palestinians for their cooperation:
Israeli Settlements in the West Bank - Numbers, Statistics and Law Regarding Israel's Illegal Settlements and Outposts in the Occupied Territories

Israel urged to stop settlement expansion in East Jerusalem

10 March 2010


Amnesty International is reiterating its call on the Israeli government to cease constructing or expanding illegal settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) after a plan to build 1,600 new Israeli settler homes in East Jerusalem was officially approved.

The plan which, if implemented, will expand the Ramat Shlomo settlement, currently home to around 18,000 settlers, was announced on Wednesday.

"Israel's policy on settlements is not only unlawful, it also impacts severely on the human rights of Palestinians in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, whose lives and livelihoods have been devastated by the constructions taking place occupied Palestinian land,"....

Israel urged to stop settlement expansion in East Jerusalem

The ceasefire began in June 2008 and the number of attacks decreased by 98% in June, 97% in July, 97% in August, 99% in September and 99.99% in October. Hardly 11th hour. During that 5 month period, Israel maintained their illegal crime against humanity blockade of humanitarian aid which keeps Gaza's living standard on par with sub-Saharan Africa. This crime against humanity continues unabated, with our PM's unshakable support. How long should Gazans watch their children suffer stunted growth and die from easily treated diseases, before they revolt? This crime against humanity is now in its third year.

Anyone with even a minimal sense of compassion knows deliberately starving tens of thousands of children is a crime against humanity.

Canada should not unshakably support war crimes and crimes against humanity, even when they are commited by Israel.
 
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CDNBear

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Instead these people driven off the land and forced into refugee camps without compnsation.
BS, the majority of these people fled the territory under direction of Arab states.

Anyone who supports what Israel does to their non-citizens, is a supporter of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Still waiting to see some proof of you claim that members here are guilty of supporting war crimes.

Who armed Israel at her birth?
No one legitimately armed Israel. Israel smuggled arms from Czechoslovakia. There was a western arms embargo imposed on the region. Much to England's dismay, since they had and were prepared to arm the Arab states. In fact, Trans Jordan's Arab legion was lead by a British Officer, RAF planes flew with Egyptian squadrons.

What Israel faced the Arabs with in the first war, was terrifyingly limited, compared to what her enemies held. Israel had no tanks, no cannons, a few armoured vehicles and jeeps, to mobilize. Haganah had thousands of civilian volunteers armed with little more then a sidearm or a pitchfork.
 

MHz

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Who armed Israel at her birth?
Their founding earthlyfather, the Rothschild dynasty. When they claim to be Zionists are they claiming to have some sort of authority from God? The only authority they have from God is to be a blight on mankind, even for the Jews although Jewsy are destined not to see that. After all their role is to be Satan's harlot in the last days. At present why fight so hard to have control of a place that is going to be renamed Babylon by Satan and then destroyed in the same manner as Sodom and Gomorrah? Should a friend let them in on this not-so-hidden prophecy or zip the lips (as do the Rothschild clan) and wait (with glee) for real destruction to come their way. If God was displeased with their behaviour in the past then imagine how He is going to treat the ones who put them into even more danger.

Israel is the anti-semite.
That would make God one also, because of their blatant disregard for His Laws even He had to send them away.
Really strange is that who is going to listen to a 'woman' who is described as this by 'her' own 'husband'. Apparently most of the world wants to embrace a people that are doing the same things that pissed God off some 3,000 years ago, I don'y see that as being a good carer move on their part, oh well let the rolling heads stop where they may.

Isa:1:4:
Ah sinful nation,
a people laden with iniquity,
a seed of evildoers,
children that are corrupters:
they have forsaken the LORD,
they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger,
they are gone away backward.
Isa:1:5:
Why should ye be stricken any more?
ye will revolt more and more:
the whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
Isa:1:6:
From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it;
but wounds,
and bruises,
and putrifying sores:
they have not been closed,
neither bound up,
neither mollified with ointment.
Isa:1:7:
Your country is desolate,
your cities are burned with fire:
your land,
strangers devour it in your presence,
and it is desolate,
as overthrown by strangers.
Isa:1:8:
And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard,
as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers,
as a besieged city.
Isa:1:9:
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant,
we should have been as Sodom,
and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

La:1:1:
How doth the city sit solitary,
that was full of people!
how is she become as a widow!
she that was great among the nations,
and princess among the provinces,
how is she become tributary!
La:1:2:
She weepeth sore in the night,
and her tears are on her cheeks:
among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her:
all her friends have dealt treacherously with her,
they are become her enemies.
La:1:3:
Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction,
and because of great servitude:
she dwelleth among the heathen,
she findeth no rest:
all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.
La:1:4:
The ways of Zion do mourn,
because none come to the solemn feasts:
all her gates are desolate:
her priests sigh,
her virgins are afflicted,
and she is in bitterness.
 

MHz

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Haganah had thousands of civilian volunteers armed with little more then a sidearm or a pitchfork.
8O Let's see a pic of them holding those pitch-forks. lol

BS, the majority of these people fled the territory under direction of Arab states.
They offerred them a santuary from the Israeli night squads (why would a Nation even admit to having a squad that is trained for night terror missions on women and kids) The SNS may have been disbanded by the Brits but the Jews kept them in business under a new name and a new agenda, target Arab civilians inn the dead of night.
(in part)
Special Night Squads (SNS)

A joint British-Jewish unit set up by the British Captain Ord Wingate in 1936 to defended the Iraqi Petroleum Line against Arab guerillas. They were manned by the best of the Settlement Police, but otherwise received little practical British support However, Wingate did gain Haganah support andhence sometimes reinforced his patrols with POSH fighters. The British disbanded the SNS in 1938.



POSH

Full name Plugot SadeH ("Field Companies") and usually abbreviated to POSH. A elite mobile strike force of the Haganah created in 1937. Although primarily a commando style unit they also included topographical, educational, and intelligence (Arab speaking) units. By March 1938 Fosh had 1,500 trained fighters in 13 regional groups. They openly faced Arabs mobs and initiated raids on Arab villages. Disbanded in 1939 when the Hish were formed.
(Now days POSH includes all the fighters in the IDF.)
HISH

Full name Heyl SadeH ("Field Force") but usually abbreviated to HISH. Formed in 1939 from the POSH.
Israeli Order of Battle | Arab-Israel Wars | Military History | Balagan | Steven Thomas

Still waiting to see some proof of you claim that members here are guilty of supporting war crimes.
Making people refugees is a war-crime, refusing them the right to return is also a war-crime. The question can be answered on that point alone, the rest of the issue(s), like can they even be accused of that crime and have the courts decide rather than it be trial in the court of public opinion. Coming in the dark of night to do it is just an added act of terror to an already terrifying experience for the ones without side-arms or pitch-forks. (it is one thing to ply for sympathy and quite another to appear to be out of touch with the reality of the situation back then (and today). When was the last time you checked your 'facts'?

No one legitimately armed Israel. Israel smuggled arms from Czechoslovakia. There was a western arms embargo imposed on the region. Much to England's dismay, since they had and were prepared to arm the Arab states. In fact, Trans Jordan's Arab legion was lead by a British Officer, RAF planes flew with Egyptian squadrons.
When Britain ditched they left their weapons to the Jews. I could post an article that shows some British military man inciting the Arabs to violent demonstration in Jerusalem about that time. That is setting them up, that was not 'helping them'.

Also see below for their 'military statues, they were already quite profecient at night raids on villages. As soon as the paper was signed in Nov47 it was a land rush like the old west in the US. Grab as much land as you can, using terror and death as your methods, and suddenly 'stop, throw your hands up and declare yourself ' a Nation' that includes all the land that the Native inhabitants were just chased from ot just killed, often just as an example to the few survivors. Like in the few examples below. Arab Nations weren't involved prior to the declaration of independance with confiscated (stolen at gunpoint) Arab land.

[SIZE=+1]NASER AL-DIN MASSACRE:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0] 13-14 April 1948(Palestine) : a contingent of Lehi and Irgon entered this village (near Tiberias) entered the village on the night of 13 April dressed as Arab fighters. Upon their entrance to the village the people went out to greet them, the terrorists met them with fire, killing every single one of them. Only 40 people survived. All the houses of the village were raised to the ground.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Back to top[/SIZE] [SIZE=+0]Abu Shusha Massacre[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](coming soon)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+1]THE TANTURA MASSACRE:[/SIZE] May 15, 1948 (Palestine): "From testimonies and information I got from Jewish and Arab witnesses and from soldiers who were there, at least 200 people from the village of Tantura were killed by Israeli troops...
"From the numbers, this is definitely one of the biggest massacres," Teddy Katz an Israeli historian said Tantura, near Haifa in northern Palestine, had 1,500 residents at the time. It was later demolished to make way for a parking lot for a nearby beach and the Nahsholim kibbutz, or cooperative farm.
Fawzi Tanji, now 73 and a refugee at a camp in the West Bank, is from Tantura he said:
I was 21 years old then.They took a group of 10 men,lined them up against the cemetery wall and killed them.Then they brought another group, killed them, threw away the bodies and so on, Tanji said. I was waiting for my turn to die in cold blood as I saw the men drop in front of me.
Katz said other Palestinians were killed inside their homes and in other parts of the village. At one point, he said, soldiers shot at anything that moved.
[SIZE=-1]Back to top[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]BEIT DARAS MASSACRE:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] 21 May 1948(Palestine): after a number of failed attempts to occupy this village, the Zionists mobilized a large contingent and surrounded the village. The people of Beit Daras decided that women and children should leave. As women and children left the village they were met by the Zionist army who massacred them despite the fact that they could see they were women and children fleeing the fighting.[/SIZE]


What Israel faced the Arabs with in the first war, was terrifyingly limited, compared to what her enemies held. Israel had no tanks, no cannons, a few armoured vehicles and jeeps, to mobilize.
What is your source for that, I think you are intentionally fudging the books since this is on page one of almost any search engine.

1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Initial line-up of forces

[edit] Military assessments

Benny Morris has argued that although, by the end of 1947, the Palestinians "had a healthy and demoralising respect for the Yishuv's military power", they believed in decades or centuries "that the Jews, like the medieval crusader kingdoms, would ultimately be overcome by the Arab world".[60]
On the eve of the war the number of Arab troops likely to be committed to the war was about 23,000 (10,000 Egyptians, 4,500 Jordanians, 3,000 Iraqis, 3,000 Syrians, 2,000 ALA volunteers, 1,000 Lebanese and some Saudi Arabians), in addition to the irregular Palestinians already present. The Yishuv had 35,000 troops of the Haganah, 3,000 of Stern and Irgun and a few thousand armed settlers.[61]
On 12 May David Ben-Gurion was told by his chief military advisers, "who over-estimated the size of the Arab armies and the numbers and efficiency of the troops who would be committed", that Israel's chances of winning a war against the Arab states were only about even.[62]
[edit] Yishuv forces

In November 1947, the Haganah was an underground paramilitary force that had existed as a highly organized, national force since the riots of 1920–21, and throughout the riots of 1929, and Great Uprising of 1936–39[63] It had a mobile force, the HISH, which had 2,000 full time fighters (men and women) and 10,000 reservists (all aged between 18 and 25) and an elite unit, the Palmach composed of 2,100 fighters and 1,000 reservists. The reservists trained 3–4 days a month and went back to civilian life the rest of the time. These mobile forces could rely on a garrison force, the HIM (Heil Mishmar, lit. Guard Corps), composed of people aged over 25. The Yishuv's total strength was around 35,000 with 15,000 to 18,000 fighters and a garrison force of roughly 20,000.[64] The two clandestine groups Irgun and Lehi had 2,000–4,000 and 500–800 members, respectively. There were also several thousand men and women who had served in the British Army in World War II who did not serve in any of the underground militias but would provide valuable military experience during the war.[65] Walid Khalidi says the Yishuv had the additional forces of the Jewish Settlement Police, numbering some 12,000, the Gadna Youth Battalions, and the armed settlers.[66] Few of the units had been trained by December 1947.[67]
In 1946 Ben-Gurion decided that the Yishuv would probably have to defend itself against both the Palestinian Arabs and neighbouring Arab states and accordingly began a "massive, covert arms acquisition campaign in the West". By September 1947 the Haganah had "10,489 rifles, 702 light machine-guns, 2,666 submachine guns, 186 medium machine-guns, 672 two-inch mortars and 92 three-inch (76 mm) mortars" and acquired many more during the first few months of hostilities. The Yishuv also had "a relatively advanced arms producing capacity", that between October 1947 and July 1948 "produced 3 million 9 mm bullets, 150,000 Mills grenades, 16,000 submachine guns (Sten Guns) and 210 three-inch (76 mm) mortars",[68] along with a few "Davidka" homemade mortars that were highly inaccurate but had a spectacularly loud explosion that demoralized the enemy. Initially, the Haganah had no heavy machine guns, artillery, armored vehicles, anti-tank or anti-aircraft weapons,[69] nor military aircraft or tanks.[70]
Sources disagree about the amount of arms at the Yishuv's disposal at the end of the Mandate. According to Karsh before the arrival of arms shipments from Czechoslovakia as part of Operation Balak, there was roughly one weapon for every three fighters, and even the Palmach armed only two out of every three of its active members.[71] According to Collins and LaPierre, by April 1948 the Haganah had managed to accumulate only about 20,000 rifles and Sten guns for the 35,000 soldiers who existed on paper.[72] According to Walid Khalidi "the arms at the disposal of these forces were plentiful".[66]
[edit] Arab forces

There was no national military organisation in the Arab Palestinian community. There were two paramilitary youth organizations, the pro-Husayni Futuwa and the anti-Husayni Najjada ("auxiliary corps"). According to Karsh, these groups had 11,000–12,000 members,[73] but according to Morris, the Najjada, which was based in Jaffa and had 2,000–3,000 members, was destroyed in the run-up to the 1948 war, during Husayni's attempt to seize control of it, and the Futuwa never numbered more than a few hundred.[74] At the outbreak of the war, new local militia groups, the National Guard, mushroomed in towns and cities. Each was answerable to its local Arab National Committee.[75]
In December, Abd al-Qadir Husseini arrived in Jerusalem with one hundred combatants who had trained in Syria and that would form the cadre of the Holy War Army. His forces were joined by a few hundred young villagers and veterans of the British army.[76]
The equipment of the Palestinian forces was very poor. The British confiscated most of their arsenal during the 1936–39 rebellion and World War II[77] A report of 1942 by the Haganah intelligence service assessed the number of firearms at the disposal of the Palestinian at 50,000 [but] this was probably an overestimate[78] or even "highly exaggerated".[79]
The Arab Liberation Army (Jaysh al-Inqadh al-Arabi) had been set up by the Arab League. It was an army of around 6,000 volunteers, largely from Arab countries, and was led by Fawzi al-Qawuqji. Its officially allotted area was northern Palestine, including Samaria.
Jordan's Arab Legion was considered the most effective Arab force. Armed, trained and commanded by British officers, this 8,000–12,000 strong force was organised in four infantry/mechanised regiments supported by some 40 artillery pieces and 75 armoured cars. Until January 1948, it was reinforced by the 3,000-strong Jordan Frontier Force.[78]
As many as 48 British officers served in the Jordanian Arab Legion;[80] probably the Jordanian forces were the best trained of all combatants. Other combatant forces lacked the ability to make strategic decisions and tactical maneuvers,[81] as evidenced by positioning the forth regiment at Latrun, which was abandoned by other combatants before the arrival of the Jordanian forces. In the later stages of the war, Latrun proved to be of extreme importance, and a decisive factor for Jerusalem's fate. Glubb Pasha, the commander of the Jordanian Arab Legion, organized his forces into four brigades as follows:



(chart won't appear properly)
 

MHz

Time Out
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Numpty -
regarding US arms for Israel - Who armed Egypt, Syria, Libya during the 50's and 60's and 70's- or does that matter. of course you would require some knowledge of the times - Do you have that? Or is that nor not relevant
I wondered who convinced them to but tanks and such when all the military bigwigs knew the next war would be fought from the skies. Any WWII surplus tanks in those deals?
 

ironsides

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Israel did have squads going out at night protecting and maybe occasionally taking a little revenge for what roaming bands of Arabs were doing to them. The Arabs would ambush Israel farmers, produce trucks going down a road, and sometimes even directly attacked Israeli settlements. In the beginning those Jewish farmers were only armed with what ever they could steal from the British, mainly small arms. They had no tanks, no airplanes other than a couple aircraft (like a captured German Fieseler Fi 156.)


I see you mentioned oil, the area that Israel and Palestine are contesting doesn't contain any major oil deposits that have been found yet. Very little water, lots of dust and a whole lot of history. The only thing growing there is what Israel planted and irrigated. If it wasn't fir Israel we wouldn't have Haifa oranges.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
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United States
I wondered who convinced them to but tanks and such when all the military bigwigs knew the next war would be fought from the skies. Any WWII surplus tanks in those deals?



The Arabs hit Israel with everything they had Aircraft, SAM's, warships, tanks and troops. Just not a well trained and directed by the Russians.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
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Red Deer AB
I see you mentioned oil, the area that Israel and Palestine are contesting doesn't contain any major oil deposits that have been found yet. Very little water, lots of dust and a whole lot of history. The only thing growing there is what Israel planted and irrigated. If it wasn't fir Israel we wouldn't have Haifa oranges.
I didn't before but I will now.
In addition the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, Part V, describes an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) that would grant Gaza control of all seabed assets up to 200 nautical miles from its shore.3 There is speculation that vast deposits of natural gas are located beyond the 20-mile Maritime Activity Zone. Such a resource would give Gaza the potential of becoming another Dubai in a relatively short period if they were allowed to develop their own deposits.3 Timeline of Gaza Marine Zone, Fishermen and Natural Gas Deposits.
War, Natural Gas and Gaza's Marine Zone - [Mouvement Ettajdid -Tunisie]
Beginning in late 2000 the Israeli military began a campaign of intimidation and harassment against the fishing boats that ventured near or beyond a 6 nautical mile limit. No formal notice or explanation was ever given to the Palestinians. Instead the regulation was written and enforced by Israeli machine guns and water cannons. At least 14 fishermen have been killed by the Israelis, over 200 injured and numerous boats damaged or impounded.
WHY ?
In the late 1990’s the British Gas Group (BG Group) discovered a vast deposit of natural gas under the waters off Gaza : Over 1 trillion cubic feet equal to 150 million barrels of oil was estimated to be there. A significantly smaller deposit was also found in nearby Israeli waters.
On 11/8/99 Chairman Yasser Arafat signed an agreement giving BG Group 90 percent interest and 10 per cent to Consolidated Contractors Company, an Athens based Palestinian entity connected to the PLO. A final allocation of the rights continues to be contested between BG Group, Israel, Egypt and the Palestinians in obscured ongoing negotiations. The Israelis began their program of killing and harassing the Gazan fishermen only after the discovery of the natural gas deposits. It is a reasonable assumption that the two events are linked : That the Israelis are asserting control over this resource valued at over 4 billion dollars ; And that they are intent on denying any benefit to the Palestinians regardless of who controls Gaza.
TIMELINE :

  • May 4, 1994 : PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signed The Gaza-Jericho Agreement. Article XI established three Maritime Activity Zones that extended out to sea 20 nautical miles from the coast of Gaza. Two narrow Zones running parallel to the boundaries of Egyptian and Israeli waters were designated No Fishing Areas. Under the terms of the Agreement the larger remaining Zone "will be open for fishing, recreation and economic activities." The Gazan fishermen operated freely for the next 6 years within this Zone with no major confrontations with the Israelis.

  • Late 1990’s : The British Gas Group (later BG Group) began explorations off the Israeli and Gazan coasts for natural gas. A modest deposit was found in Israeli waters close to the Gaza Marine Activity Zone. A significantly larger deposit was found in a section of this Zone centered some 10 to 15 nautical miles offshore. It was estimated that there were sufficient reserves to generate electric power for all Palestinian needs for a decade and still have surplus to export.

  • July 25, 2000 : Yasser Arafat walked out on the Camp David meeting.

  • September 27, 2000 : Yasser Arafat traveled 19 miles off the Gaza coast to light the first flare stack flowing from the natural gas. An Israeli oil consortium had contested the Palestinian rights to the gas but was overturned in an Israeli court. The initial agreement with the BG Group gave them 90 percent interest and 10 percent to Consolidated Contractors Company, an Athens based Palestinian group. They and the Palestinian Investment Fund (PIF) had the option to later assume up to 40 per cent interest.

  • Initially BG Group negotiated with Egypt to run an undersea pipeline designed to import the gas. Under pressure from Tony Blair BG Group was forced to negotiate with the Israelis instead. Those discussions, which centered over price, have been so long and contentious that BG Group closed their Israel office and again began dealing with Egypt.

  • September 28, 2000 : Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount despite warnings by Arafat and other leading Palestinians. The predictable riots and deaths following this provocation marked the beginning of 2nd Intafada. Sharon was elected Prime Minister in February 2001. He vowed that Israel would never buy gas from the Palestinians. After the outbreak of the 2nd Intafada the Israelis began an ever-tightening blockade of Gaza with fewer and fewer trucks allowed to enter.

  • Late 2000 : Attacks by Israeli patrol boats against Gazan fishing boats began and have continued to this day. These attacks began 5 years before Hamas freely won the legislative elections on January 25, 2006. It is apparent that these assaults on the fishermen had nothing to do with security or with Hamas. Instead it had everything to do with a 4 billion dollar resource belonging to the Palestinians.

  • August, 2002 : In response to a request from Prime Minister Sharon, the Secretary-General of the United Nations appointed Ms. Catherine Bertini as his Personal Humanitarian Envoy to asses humanitarian needs of the Palestinians. At the end of her visit to the area she made numerous recommendations including one that dealt with the fishing boats. In her report she included a list of "Previous Commitments Made by Israel". Item 2 states : "The fishing zone for Palestinian fishing boats off the Gaza coast is 12 nautical miles. This policy needs to be fully implemented." But never was !

  • Although the attacks occurred throughout the Maritime Activity Zone they were more common once a boat had passed the 6-mile limit. Most boats now carry GPS’s in order to know their exact positions. Some captains are intimidated by the Israeli threat and turn back before crossing the line. Others go further despite the increased danger from the Israelis. The fishery closer to shore has collapsed after so many boats were forced to operate in such a limited area. In addition the waters near shore are polluted due to sewage pouring in from broken pipes. One more consequence of an infrastructure crippled by the Israelis. Since the outset of these assaults at least 14 fishermen have been killed and over 200 injured. Boats continue to be damaged or impounded.

  • 9/12/05 - Israel announced that it had ended the occupation of Gaza and withdrew its forces. It maintained control of land and sea-lanes as well as all border crossings on land.

  • 1/25/06 - Hamas won 76 of 132 seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council in an open honest election. After a bloody battle with Fatah elements Hamas took control of Gaza. Israel and the United States branded Hamas a terrorist organization and have had no public contact with it thereafter. The restrictions at the border crossings were tightened further with severe limitations on the traffic of produce, materials, medicines and people. Anemia and malnutrition were widespread as a result.

  • Early June 2008 - Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to covertly prepare for an invasion of Gaza to be known as operation "Cast Lead".

  • June, 2008 -Israel contacted BG Group to propose reopening negotiations over the natural gas deposits. Actual negotiations overseen by Ehud Olmert were taking place in October, 2008. It appears that Israel wished to reach an agreement with BG Group before the secretly planned invasion began.

  • 6/19/08 - Hamas and Israel signed a 6-month truce agreement calling for cessation of rocket firings by Hamas and military incursions by Israel. In May over 300 rockets had been fired. In September only 5 to 10 were fired. Hamas was lead to believe that significant increase in shipments would be allowed to enter Gaza. Before the truce roughly 70 trucks were allowed to bring provisions into Gaza each day compared with some 900 permitted before the Israeli clamp down in 2000. Hamas believed that a similar flow of traffic would be restored. Instead Israel allowed only an increase from the 70 to 90 trucks.

  • 11/5/08 - IDF forces killed 6 Palestinians while supposedly searching for a tunnel passing under the border. In effect the truce was over after this provocation. During the next 5 weeks 237 rockets were fired into Israel compared with the 5 to 10 fired in September. The increase in rocket fire was Israel’s public justification for launching the long planned "Cast Lead" invasion.

  • 11/18/08 - An Egyptian court ordered the government to stop shipping natural gas to Israel. Under a 2005 agreement Egypt agreed to deliver 1.7 billion cubic meters of gas to Israel over a 15-year period. The gas began to flow in May, 2008. A lawsuit followed seeking to bar delivery since the Parliament had not given its approval. The court supported the lawsuit and its findings are being appealed. The potential cutoff of the gas from Egypt gave Israel even more incentive to take control of the Gaza Marine deposits and to deny any benefits to Palestinians whether Hamas or Fatah.

  • 11/18/08 - Israeli naval vessels attacked three Palestinian fishing boats located seven miles off the coast of Deir Al Balah, clearly within the limits permitted in the 1994 Gaza-Jericho Agreement. Fifteen Palestinian fishermen and three international observers were kidnapped and taken with the boats to Israel. The fishermen were held for a day and then released. The boats were eventually returned but damaged. The internationals were jailed in Israel for many days and then deported.

  • 12/27/08 - Israel began bombing Gaza as phase 1 of operation "Cast Lead". The vast natural gas deposits of Gaza Marine 1 and 2 rest a few miles offshore.