Pirates......

[BaalsTears]

The Chinese and Indians will be so involved with each other that Somali piracy issue will only be taken on as events happen. Neither of them will get involved with Somalia directly, especially the Chinese.

Perhaps. But it wouldn't take much more than ruthlessness to clean up the Somali pirates. The Chinese would make short work of the Somalis.

Btw, the subject of Sino/Indian competition in the Indian Ocean in the decades to come is very interesting. It would make for a wonderful discussion on a separate thread.

 

[Colpy]

"We" don't have to put up with it at all...... stop sending ships through that area....... The only reason why countries keep sending ships through that area is because it's quick and thus, cost effective and it's not their country, so they can dump their waste and pollute their country's waters all they want...... but it's no longer being very profitable is it? Not if you have ships being taken over and held for multi-million dollar ransoms.

Instead we have companies paying ransoms to get their ships and crew back, and we have multiple countries sending military vessels and troops to patrol those waters...... which adds on top of the overall cost of those ransoms.

Countries have been having a cheap way of cutting their shipping costs by going through their waters for a long time and now that it's not becoming profitable, we have people crying foul and trying to get that back..... which was never theirs in the first place.

Just think about what would happen if we opened up the north for open-wide shipping by every country out there? Further pollution and contamination would occur in Northern Canada and it'd be our responsibility to clean it up and deal with it, while not getting any real return from these countries using our waters to save themselves some money........ I'm sure a few people would get fed up and depending on how bad it got, resort to similar tactics..... you never know.



That won't solve anything and you would only end up having more hostages killed..... great way to punish the victims while ignoring those you feel are causing the problem....... it won't stop anything and if these pirates don't get ransom money from holding ships and hostages, then they'll just kill everybody on those ships, take those ships, strip them down of their cargo, equipment and resources and sell them on the black market...... nothing is solved.



Then the pirates will obtain larger caliber weapons with longer ranges (Sniper rifles, 50.cal machine guns), or larger explosive weapons to take those people out....... it will only increase and nothing will change except more violence and more deaths.



That won't stop anything, only piss off Somolis further and increase their aggression and tactics..... that and it's not our country to invade and attack...... we're in their waters, remember that...... and remember what happens when you think you can get what you want just by blowing things up and killing people. Your victims gain more sympathy and more support, your problems don't go away and the conflict and issues only escalate.



And further risk killing the hostages and crew of those ships taken over, either by the pirates killing them or them getting killed in the crossfire and die at the hands of those wonderful trigger happy military heros........ threat of dying from being a pirate will not deter these people because the gains outweigh the risks....... as said before, if something like that happens, then they'll just board the ships, kill everyone and take the ships back to shore, strip them down of their cargo and resources and sell them to the highest bidder.



Indeed, we used to be a lot smarter then this...... the smartest thing to be doing is moving our ships outside of their waters and way out of range of the pirates...... increased shipping time and feul costs don't compare to not saving hostages, wasting money on ransoms and military patrols.

^ But that's just too simple I guess..... us being smarter indeed. :roll:

Ahhhh...Please...look at a map. (insert rolled eyes here)

 

[BaalsTears]

The American boat was captured by Somali pirates off the coast of Oman on the other side of the Arabian Peninsula. I think that's more than a thousand miles from the coast of Somalia.

 

[Cliffy]

What a bunch of emotional reactionary brain farting. These so called pirates have been doing this for how long now? With all the fire power the west has and their penchant for using it on others, why haven't they blown them away long ago? There is something very fishy going on and we are not getting the full story. We are only fed enough data to get us all emotionally upset. That tells me that we are being had.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Four Americans killed by pirates off Somalia’s coast - The Globe and Mail

This is insanity. Exactly how long are we to put up with this crap???

The solutions are simple, but varied.

1. Make it illegal to pay ransom. Institute a Law of the Sea where any ship and cargo freed by the paying of ransom can be seized the military force deployed in the Gulf in anti-pirate operations, and sold to the highest bidder to pay for those operations.

2. Arm merchant men. A half dozen Remington 12 ga shotguns, at $400 bucks apiece, and $500 per man to train the crew in their use. A bunch of buckshot. Try boarding THOSE ships.....and I happen to know a guy that would love a job training the boys.

3. Take military action against pirate nests ashore. Don't arrest anyone.

4. If a ship is taken, initiate immediate, overwhelming, violent military action. Take no prisoners.

The Canadian Navy is currently engaged in catch-and-release operations against pirates....we catch them, take their AKs (20 bucks each in Somalia) and let them go. Personally, I think we should set them adrift in their boat, and use it for target practice.

We used to be a LOT smarter than this, as a society.

Agreed. There is a reason for the line in the Marine Hymn "...to the shores of Tripoli." That was in 1804. And it was a determined effort to eliminate piracy in the Mediterranean. Battle of Derne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

It is about time the world powers used some of that multibillion dollar military might and did something about the ragtag Somali pirates. If the US navy can't even protect its own citizens in international waters, then what use is it? Ditto for the rest of the navies of the NATO members.

 

[Unforgiven]

Well all I can tell you is that once upon a time the US military thought they would provide cover for the aid shipments to the Somali people from the warlords. After a few bodies of American soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, degraded and violated, the American people lost their taste for taking on these Somali nutters.

If solving piracy off the coast of Somalia was simple it would have been fixed by now. It's not. Billions of dollars have been and is being spent on addressing that problem as we speak. Thinking that raising the number of body bags in the area is going to put off Somali pirates is a gross underestimation.

 

[Praxius]

Ahhhh...Please...look at a map. (insert rolled eyes here)

I did thanks very much.... Perhaps you should.
http://komincents.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/somali_pirate_attacks_map.jpg

As you can see, the majority of hijacks were clearly in their waters and as noted by the above image.

If you can't refute or argue any of what I said is untrue or impossible to do, then you don't have any grounds. Don't like getting attacked by pirates? Stay out of Somali waters..... once they go out into international waters, blow them up without question.... simple.

This is what happens when you ignore a nation's borders and water territory for a period of time and think you can do whatever you damn well please. Eventually people in that nation will take matters into their own hands..... like Iraq, like Pakistan, like Afghanistan, etc.... yet some people still think it's our right to go into countries or use their territory for our own personal gains..... and then punish those people when they have a problem with that.

Don't like it?

Go around them..... if they come after a ship outside of their waters, blow them up. Blow up any ship that approaches your vessel that is unknown or doesn't announce itself..... but when in their waters, you risk the consequences.

If you stroll across the border of North Korea, don't bitch and moan about what happens to you..... same applies here. Don't like it? Don't go there.

 

[ironsides]

These pirates are operating in international waters, ships have every right to sail thru there and feel safe, plus they use much less oil by taking the shortest route. We know the pirates are there, allow the cargo ships carry small arms to protect themselves. Pirate boats have only speed on their side at the moment. If they give that up they are toast. Armed vessels will be able to stop most attacks.

Perhaps. But it wouldn't take much more than ruthlessness to clean up the Somali pirates. The Chinese would make short work of the Somalis.

Btw, the subject of Sino/Indian competition in the Indian Ocean in the decades to come is very interesting. It would make for a wonderful discussion on a separate thread.

No question about it, the Chinese could just roll over Somalia and the world would applaud. I don't think they have ever had a successful amphibious landing though. They are known for land attacks. Yes, Sino/Indian competition would make a good discussion.

 

[lone wolf]

The 200 mile zone is only an economic zone - as in fishing limits. Actual territorial water extends 12 nautical miles from shore at low tide.

territorial waters (international law) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

 

[ironsides]

Give them the 12 miles, and check all vessels that venture past the line. May be hard to do, but not impossible with what we have to work with today. Plus I'm not sure they have a territory if they have no official government.

 

[Colpy]

I did thanks very much.... Perhaps you should.
http://komincents.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/somali_pirate_attacks_map.jpg

As you can see, the majority of hijacks were clearly in their waters and as noted by the above image.

If you can't refute or argue any of what I said is untrue or impossible to do, then you don't have any grounds. Don't like getting attacked by pirates? Stay out of Somali waters..... once they go out into international waters, blow them up without question.... simple.

This is what happens when you ignore a nation's borders and water territory for a period of time and think you can do whatever you damn well please. Eventually people in that nation will take matters into their own hands..... like Iraq, like Pakistan, like Afghanistan, etc.... yet some people still think it's our right to go into countries or use their territory for our own personal gains..... and then punish those people when they have a problem with that.

Don't like it?

Go around them..... if they come after a ship outside of their waters, blow them up. Blow up any ship that approaches your vessel that is unknown or doesn't announce itself..... but when in their waters, you risk the consequences.

If you stroll across the border of North Korea, don't bitch and moan about what happens to you..... same applies here. Don't like it? Don't go there.

Thanks for the map.....interesting....but it totally disproves all of your theories....

First of all, very few of the attacks occured within the Somali 12 mile limit.......see Lone Wolf's link below. Even if you mistakenly consider the 200 mile economic limit(designated by the blue stripes on your map) as Somali terrritory , the map is very misleading, as the line for Somali territory would only extend halfway into the Gulf of Aden, the other half being in the Yemeni economic zone.

Secondly, the map shows quite well the ability of pirates to strike hundreds of kilometers out into the Indian Ocean. It is a big sea, and naval forces can not cover even a tiny fraction of it.

Thirdly, the above facts make your contention "go around them" simple nonsense. 21,000 merchant ships pass through the Gulf of Aden in a year. They are vulnerable to attack on the high seas anywhere in the (huge) gulf, or for tens of thousands of square kilometers approaching the Gulf....

The only sane solution is armed merchant vessels, and a universal refusal to pay ransom.

Unfortunately, the world is not very sane anymore.

 

[darkbeaver]

The worlds getting saner everyday.

 

[Colpy]

The worlds getting saner everyday.

Say it isn't true Beav....are you leaving us???

 

[ironsides]

Nothing wrong with going with the a convoy system similar to WW-II, group of ships sail together providing mutual protection.

 

[taxslave]

[
This is insanity. Exactly how long are we to put up with this crap???

Until #3 is acted upon.

3. Take military action against pirate nests ashore. Don't arrest anyone.


The Canadian Navy is currently engaged in catch-and-release operations against pirates....we catch them, take their AKs (20 bucks each in Somalia) and let them go. Personally, I think we should set them adrift in their boat, and use it for target practice.

We used to be a LOT smarter than this, as a society.

Our domestic law enforcement runs the same program for domestic criminals. Would you expect anything different off shore?
See number three above for the cure to that problem as well.

 

[darkbeaver]

Say it isn't true Beav....are you leaving us???

Of course it's true, I will always leave you.

 

[mt_pockets1000]

The worlds getting saner everyday.

When has the world ever been sane? We have pockets of sanity mixed in with overwhelming rage throughout the world and it's been like that since time immemorial.

Insanity is the new sanity.

 

[BaalsTears]

As ships avoid the coast of Somalia it has become necessary for the pirates to move further afield deep into the Indian Ocean. This is simply Somali capitalism in action. Nothing more, nothing less. There are investors who supply capital and entrepreneurs who execute the investment plan.

 

[Colpy]

These SOBs sure aren't lacking in gall!!!!

Pirates blamed the deaths of the American hostages on the U.S. Navy, saying the pirates felt under attack.
“We warned them before that if we are attacked, there would be only dead bodies,” said a man who gave his name as Abdirahman Abdullahi Qabowsade. “We have been killed and arrested illegally before, so we can't bear with such attacks anymore. We will respond to any future attacks aggressively.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...er-deadly-us-hostage-standoff/article1917136/

 

[lone wolf]

Is that why two pirates were allegedly negotiating aboard USS Sterett?