Palestinian "Unilateral Declaration of Independence"

[Just the Facts]

I know that's your point and I know what it's in response to. I'm saying that it doesn't matter. National identity is fabricated. However recent that fabrication is irrelevant. And Israeli and Palestinian identity are about the same age.

Insofar as "Palestine" is a translation of "Israel", then yes, I agree.

"The Jews" have no claim to Palestine whatsoever. The people who live there have claim. More important than any historical claim is the human claim to the right of self-determination.

Jews live there. Jews have lived there for thousands of years. Then other Jews started coming and buying up land to join the Jews that were already there, who had stuck it out through the pogroms of the centuries. That inspired more Arabs to come to work at jobs that were created by the influx of Jews. The Jews of Palestine fit your test of claim to the right of self-determination to a T. They also have a historical claim to the land.

I don't see why it's so difficult to allow the Jews the tiny sliver of Palestine that we call Israel today. Arabs got almost 90% of the original mandate of Palestine. The Jews settled for their lousy 10%. Give them a break already.

 

[Corduroy]

Insofar as "Palestine" is a translation of "Israel", then yes, I agree.

This etymological point is as boring as it is stupid.

Jews live there. Jews have lived there for thousands of years. Then other Jews started coming and buying up land to join the Jews that were already there, who had stuck it out through the pogroms of the centuries. That inspired more Arabs to come to work at jobs that were created by the influx of Jews. The Jews of Palestine fit your test of claim to the right of self-determination to a T. They also have a historical claim to the land.

I don't see why it's so difficult to allow the Jews the tiny sliver of Palestine that we call Israel today. Arabs got almost 90% of the original mandate of Palestine. The Jews settled for their lousy 10%. Give them a break already.

I can see why my mention of self-determination makes you think of dividing land along racial lines. The concept has been used in the past (to disastrous effect) to do just that. How much land Arabs control in the Middle East is irrelevant to the concept, however. In fact, most Arab-controlled lands are under some kind of dictatorship, meaning that there is no self-determination to speak of. The state-occupying Palestine is a Jewish/Arab problem as far as one side wants to define that state on racial or sectarian lines.

Israel is the freest state in the Middle East. If I was an Arab in the Middle East, I'd much prefer living there than in any Arab-nationalist dictatorship. And a lot of Arabs do live there. It is, however, peculiarly a Jewish state with an enormous non-Jewish minority. As an ideological concept, a Jewish state that permits the right to claim citizenship to any Jew anywhere, Israel disenfranchises a large portion of its population.

Self-determination doesn't mean "Jews get a state and Arabs already have a dozen states so Arabs in the Jewish state get nothing". It means everyone should have the right to have a say in the management and make up of the state they live in.

 

[petros]

Yehudi (Jews) aren't a race and neither are Arabs.

 

[Just the Facts]

This etymological point is as boring as it is stupid.

It may be boring, that's up to the viewer, but it's hardly stupid. It lays to waste Yasser Arafat's attempt to match Jewish claimed legitmacy to sovereignty over the land, on the grounds of being descendants of the Philistines....a people with as ancient a tie to the land as that of the Jews. Given that the Palestinians have nothing to do with the Philistines, one can't help but wonder why the leader of a people would lie about his people's and his own origins.

I can see why my mention of self-determination makes you think of dividing land along racial lines.

It makes me think of dividing land along the lines of whatever criteria the fabricators have chosen to define themselves by.

The concept has been used in the past (to disastrous effect) to do just that. How much land Arabs control in the Middle East is irrelevant to the concept, however.

Agreed, but how much land Arabs control of Palestine, is entirely relevant.

In fact, most Arab-controlled lands are under some kind of dictatorship, meaning that there is no self-determination to speak of. The state-occupying Palestine is a Jewish/Arab problem as far as one side wants to define that state on racial or sectarian lines.

Israel is the freest state in the Middle East. If I was an Arab in the Middle East, I'd much prefer living there than in any Arab-nationalist dictatorship. And a lot of Arabs do live there. It is, however, peculiarly a Jewish state with an enormous non-Jewish minority. As an ideological concept, a Jewish state that permits the right to claim citizenship to any Jew anywhere, Israel disenfranchises a large portion of its population.

No argument there really. However I think the disenfranchisement of non-Jews in a Jewish state to some extend is warranted. That happens all over the world. Non Hungarian speaking Hungarians will be disenfranchised. It's just par for the course. Having said that, Israel seems to have exemplary equality for non-Jews, despite being officially a Jewish state.

Self-determination doesn't mean "Jews get a state and Arabs already have a dozen states so Arabs in the Jewish state get nothing". It means everyone should have the right to have a say in the management and make up of the state they live in.

Agreed. Again,I don't care about the rest of the Arab states. Just Jordan, since it was created out of a honking chunk of Palestine. I limit my discussion here to the borders of the Mandate of Palestine, which was originally slated to be the Jewish homeland. About 90% of it ended up being given to the Arabs, where Jews have no right to exist, let alone "have the right to have a say in the management and make up of the state they live in". Nobody cares about that though. But Arabs having rights in the Jewish state, the measly 10% left over, that's a matter for grave international concern and the majority of the Agenda for the UN security council.

Abbas has stated unequivocally that his Palestine contains no Jews. Where's the outrage? Where's the demand for "the right to have a say in the management and make up of the state they live in"? Why are the Palestinian Arabs allowed to define themselves, but Palestinain Jews daring to do the same are racist occupiers? Compromise is compromise. The Arabs got 90%. Is that really not enough to put the matter to rest and move on?

 

[Corduroy]

It may be boring, that's up to the viewer, but it's hardly stupid. It lays to waste Yasser Arafat's attempt to match Jewish claimed legitmacy to sovereignty over the land, on the grounds of being descendants of the Philistines....a people with as ancient a tie to the land as that of the Jews. Given that the Palestinians have nothing to do with the Philistines, one can't help but wonder why the leader of a people would lie about his people's and his own origins.

Too bad for Yasser Arafat. The refutation of the perceived etymology of the word Palestine isn't necessary. The name of a land should have no bearing on the rights of the people there to govern themselves.

No argument there really. However I think the disenfranchisement of non-Jews in a Jewish state to some extend is warranted. That happens all over the world. Non Hungarian speaking Hungarians will be disenfranchised. It's just par for the course.

Hungary is not comparable to Israel in this regard. There is no significant ethnic minority in Hungary. About 15% of the population of Israel is Muslim (20% Arab) and that number has decreased dramatically over the decades after Israel's founding in large part due to the racist/sectarian bent of the Israeli immigration policy and the displacing of non-Jews during wars and settlement. About the only comparable point between Hungary and Israel is that Hungary's homogeneity and Israel's increasing homogeneity are the results of widespread deprivation and displacement.

A more comparable country would be this one. To most, disenfranchising Canada's demographically significant French population would not be considered, in your words, "just far for the course".

Agreed. Again,I don't care about the rest of the Arab states. Just Jordan, since it was created out of a honking chunk of Palestine. I limit my discussion here to the borders of the Mandate of Palestine, which was originally slated to be the Jewish homeland. About 90% of it ended up being given to the Arabs, where Jews have no right to exist, let alone "have the right to have a say in the management and make up of the state they live in". Nobody cares about that though. But Arabs having rights in the Jewish state, the measly 10% left over, that's a matter for grave international concern and the majority of the Agenda for the UN security council.

Abbas has stated unequivocally that his Palestine contains no Jews. Where's the outrage? Where's the demand for "the right to have a say in the management and make up of the state they live in"? Why are the Palestinian Arabs allowed to define themselves, but Palestinain Jews daring to do the same are racist occupiers? Compromise is compromise. The Arabs got 90%. Is that really not enough to put the matter to rest and move on?

Again, self-determination shouldn't be about which race or which religion gets what. "The Arabs" didn't get 90%. "The Jews" didn't get 10%. A Jewish state was formed from land at the expense of non-Jews living there.

 

[mentalfloss]

15 days....

What is this referring to again?

 

[AbtFet]

Did you think that removing settlers would be easy.

Israelis uproot trees in occupied Walaja to make room for more Jewish settlers

 

[Just the Facts]

Too bad for Yasser Arafat. The refutation of the perceived etymology of the word Palestine isn't necessary. The name of a land should have no bearing on the rights of the people there to govern themselves.

No, but the fact that Palestiians call themselves Israeli's in Greek is funny as hell.

Hungary is not comparable to Israel in this regard. There is no significant ethnic minority in Hungary. About 15% of the population of Israel is Muslim (20% Arab) and that number has decreased dramatically over the decades after Israel's founding in large part due to the racist/sectarian bent of the Israeli immigration policy and the displacing of non-Jews during wars and settlement. About the only comparable point between Hungary and Israel is that Hungary's homogeneity and Israel's increasing homogeneity are the results of widespread deprivation and displacement.

OK sorry I should have used Whoville as my example. The realities of Hungary are entirely besides the point.

A more comparable country would be this one. To most, disenfranchising Canada's demographically significant French population would not be considered, in your words, "just far for the course".

Really? French Canadians don't feel disenfranchised in Canada? That's news to me.

Again, self-determination shouldn't be about which race or which religion gets what. "The Arabs" didn't get 90%. "The Jews" didn't get 10%. A Jewish state was formed from land at the expense of non-Jews living there.

At their expense? But I thought any Arab would prefer to live in Israel? And at whose expense was the Arab state formed? We're not seeing a double standard forming here, are we?

 

[Corduroy]

No, but the fact that Palestiians call themselves Israeli's in Greek is funny as hell.

Instead of checking the veracity of this claim, I've been trying to argue that it's irrelevant. What's the point of laughing at Palestinians for calling themselves Israeli in Greek in the first place? When I said your point was as boring as it was stupid, you took it as a cue to prove just how stupid it was.

It also happens to be unverified and since you insist on being such a git about it, I'm gonna have to call you out. Prove it.

Really? French Canadians don't feel disenfranchised in Canada? That's news to me.

I noticed you inserted the word feel in there. How dishonest of you to change the language of my point for your own advantage. Unfortunately, them feeling disenfranchised and them being disenfranchised are completely different. They are actually the most privileged ethnic group in the country. French-Canadians have never had it better in Canada, and wouldn't have it better on their own, and they know it.

The point is that Canada recognizes the French character of the population. If Canada were officially an English state, affording special privileges to English-Canadians and marginalizing the French, that would be a problem. Canada shouldn't be an English state because a huge proportion of its population is not English.

Similarly, Israel shouldn't be a Jewish state because a huge proportion of its population is not Jewish. Excluding Muslims from the symbolism of the state is disenfranchising.

At their expense? But I thought any Arab would prefer to live in Israel?

At the expense of being a significant minority disenfranchised in a nationalist state. We're talking about self-determination here. An explicitly "Jewish" state excludes non-Jews and in Israel there are a lot of them.

And at whose expense was the Arab state formed? We're not seeing a double standard forming here, are we?

I have no double standard here. In Israel/Palestine debates it is common for people to think in absolute terms. I reject that kind of polarization. Just because I'm pointing out the problem in having a Jewish state in Palestine, doesn't mean I'm ignoring or being an apologist for the problems of Arab states. I'm talking about Israel. Any criticism of Arab states is tangential.

 

[Colpy]

Jason Kenney's Speech At Rally Against The Unilateral Declaration Of A Palestinian State - YouTube!

Go to about the 7 minute mark, if you wanna miss the fuzzy stuff and get down to the nitty-gritty.

Another reason to vote Conservative.

 

[petros]

Another reason to vote Conservative.

Why do Jews overwhelmingly vote Liberal?

 

[Colpy]

Why do Jews overwhelmingly vote Liberal?

not anymore.....

 

[petros]

They must have went NDP....

 

[earth_as_one]

Ahhh....the West Bank was part of Jordan......Gaza was part of Egypt........there never was a country called "Palestine"........

Oh....and where do you think the Jews would have been "safe" in 1947???????

In 1947? Nazi Germany was destroyed. The death camps had been liberated. Jews were safe pretty much anywhere in the world except Palestine, where Arabs were revolting against Europe imposing their refugee problem on them.

People here who claim they believe in freedom and justice, expose themselves as hypocrites if they support what the UN did to these people. Palestinians were never asked if they were OK with millions of Jewish refugees immigrating to the area. They have never had a say regarding UN awarding most of the arable land and water in their desert to recent immigrants. Foreign powers never asked them if they wanted to become nationless refugees. These people never asked if they wanted to be oppressed or suffer injustice. Foreigners imposed these things on Palestinians against their will. For over 60 years Palestinians have negotiated for their freedom and justice. All they've gotten is continued ethnic cleansing and war.

Palestinians now ask for something, most of us take for granted. Citizenship, fundamental human rights and a voice at the UN. The overwhelming majority of the UN General Assembly will vote in favor of the Palestinian request for UN recognition. The US will use their UNSC veto and clearly expose themselves the main obstacle to Palestinian freedom and justice. The Harper government will embarrass Canadians by voting in favor continued Palestinian suffering.

 

[In Between Man]

Palestinians were never asked if they were OK with millions of Jewish refugees immigrating to the area.

Are we talking about the same Jews who were forced out of Arab lands with nowhere to go BUT their ancient homeland? Yes, those Jews.

Put aside your revisionist history for once and learn the facts:

YouTube Jewish Naqba

 

[Goober]

The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine.[84] The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).[85]


you're going on ignore now, not sure why it took so long for me to do that.

Running away does not address the problem, does it. Does it address the 800 k Jews that lost land and wealth when they were forced out of Arab countries - Today’s dollar value places that at over 300 Billion dollars.
Does it address the fact that the peasant Arabs were told to leave so the Arab Army could conquer Israel and they could then return and claim the Jewish lands and property.

The lands would be easily identified. The ones filled with mass graves from the planed PLANNED Genocide by Arab leaders. A Final Cleansing.

Time and again the Palestinians were offered peace and always managed to Fuk it up.

Colonel Otto Skorzeny!!!!!

You know you're wayyyy too into history when.....

(just showing off)

True - Quite the exploits during his career.

In 1947? Nazi Germany was destroyed. The death camps had been liberated. Jews were safe pretty much anywhere in the world except Palestine, where Arabs were revolting against Europe imposing their refugee problem on them.

People here who claim they believe in freedom and justice, expose themselves as hypocrites if they support what the UN did to these people. Palestinians were never asked if they were OK with millions of Jewish refugees immigrating to the area. They have never had a say regarding UN awarding most of the arable land and water in their desert to recent immigrants. Foreign powers never asked them if they wanted to become nationless refugees. These people never asked if they wanted to be oppressed or suffer injustice. Foreigners imposed these things on Palestinians against their will. For over 60 years Palestinians have negotiated for their freedom and justice. All they've gotten is continued ethnic cleansing and war.

Palestinians now ask for something, most of us take for granted. Citizenship, fundamental human rights and a voice at the UN. The overwhelming majority of the UN General Assembly will vote in favor of the Palestinian request for UN recognition. The US will use their UNSC veto and clearly expose themselves the main obstacle to Palestinian freedom and justice. The Harper government will embarrass Canadians by voting in favor continued Palestinian suffering.

Have you checked into the Riots of 1929 and 1936 - Just 2 for you to read -I provided numerous links - It take your point about safety prior to 47 for Jews in Israel - and puts it where it belongs - In the Composter with the other refuse you refer to as logic.
And have you researched your claim to being a newly found Jew. Then the Israeli Right of Return would apply. You can legally emigrate to Israel and they pretty well cannot say No. Are you packing yet. Think of the effect you would have being an onsite spokeXXX for Hamas.

 

[Just the Facts]

Palestinians were never asked if they were OK with millions of Jewish refugees immigrating to the area.

lol in 1947 the Jewish refugees were the Palestinians.

They have never had a say regarding UN awarding most of the arable land and water in their desert to recent immigrants. Foreign powers never asked them if they wanted to become nationless refugees. These people never asked if they wanted to be oppressed or suffer injustice. Foreigners imposed these things on Palestinians against their will. For over 60 years Palestinians have negotiated for their freedom and justice. All they've gotten is continued ethnic cleansing and war.

lol for over 60 years the Palestinians have been being offered their freedom and justice. They kept saying no, because they're more interested in ethnically cleansing Israel of Jews, than they are in freedom and justice.

Ethnic cleansing? lol PALESTINIANS: NO JEWS IN OUR STATE! « David Hocking’s Hope For Today Blog

Palestinians now ask for something, most of us take for granted. Citizenship, fundamental human rights and a voice at the UN.

How is that different from what they were given in 1947, and reponded to with a resounding, violent, NO THANKS! in 1948?


FFT Fact #9 - Arabs Say No to Peace; Yes to Intifada - YouTube

 

[Goober]

lol in 1947 the Jewish refugees were the Palestinians.



lol for over 60 years the Palestinians have been being offered their freedom and justice. They kept saying no, because they're more interested in ethnically cleansing Israel of Jews, than they are in freedom and justice.

JTF

I know that you have some wood close by. I want you to find it and ask that wood a simple yes or no question. Then tell me who gives a better answer the wood or EAO.

 

[Colpy]

In 1947? Nazi Germany was destroyed. The death camps had been liberated. Jews were safe pretty much anywhere in the world except Palestine, where Arabs were revolting against Europe imposing their refugee problem on them.

People here who claim they believe in freedom and justice, expose themselves as hypocrites if they support what the UN did to these people. Palestinians were never asked if they were OK with millions of Jewish refugees immigrating to the area. They have never had a say regarding UN awarding most of the arable land and water in their desert to recent immigrants. Foreign powers never asked them if they wanted to become nationless refugees. These people never asked if they wanted to be oppressed or suffer injustice. Foreigners imposed these things on Palestinians against their will. For over 60 years Palestinians have negotiated for their freedom and justice. All they've gotten is continued ethnic cleansing and war.

Palestinians now ask for something, most of us take for granted. Citizenship, fundamental human rights and a voice at the UN. The overwhelming majority of the UN General Assembly will vote in favor of the Palestinian request for UN recognition. The US will use their UNSC veto and clearly expose themselves the main obstacle to Palestinian freedom and justice. The Harper government will embarrass Canadians by voting in favor continued Palestinian suffering.

BULL****!

If you could pull your head out of your butt for ten minutes and look around, you would realize the obvious thing: the Holocaust, as horrific as it was, was merely the climax of 1500 years of European Jew hatred, persecution, and murder. Thanks to people like you, Jews can NEVER be safe anywhere but in their homeland, where they must remain ever vigilant and armed to the teeth.


For a Jew, especially a European Jew, Zionism is only good sense.

Don't be an idiot. Palestinians are ARABS. Arabs control the vast majority of the Middle East, thus the name: the ARABIAN Peninsula.

Out of the 2.6 million square kilometers of the Arabian Peninsula, the Jews have managed to hack out a mere 20,700 square kilometers, which amounts to POINT .8 of a percent of the land. That means for every 125 sq kilometers in Arab hands, Israel has one square kilometer.

Cry me a river.

On that tiny tiny piece of ground, Israel created the ONLY liberal democracy in the area, before the USA forced one on Iraq.........

So, we have the Israelis on a tiny piece of land that they fought for tooth and nail, after they were attacked and threatened with oblivion. We have the Arab states, who have completely refused to accept the refugees from those conflicts, prefering to use them as a club to beat the Jews. Meanwhile Israel has accepted and assimilated 750,000 Jews thrown out of Arab lands.

If Palestine wishes to be a nation, it MUST have the agreement of the state that they are sworn to destroy. Simple as that. If they can not control their wilder elements, if they can not reach a common foundation for peace among themselves......then they deserve no state.

 

[Goober]

BULL****!

If you could pull your head out of your butt for ten minutes and look around, you would realize the obvious thing: the Holocaust, as horrific as it was, was merely the climax of 1500 years of European Jew hatred, persecution, and murder. Thanks to people like you, Jews can NEVER be safe anywhere but in their homeland, where they must remain ever vigilant and armed to the teeth.

Colpy - many people believe that Israel does not have the right to exist - When attacked they should not return fire - they should be more civilized. What does it matter if only one or 2 Jews die.
Many hold Israel to a higher moral standard than they expect from the Palestinians or themselves – Racist belief to say the least – Arabs are not expected to be civilized. But the Jews are expected to endure attacks.
But if they were on the receiving end of an attack, well shxt would fly. CBC would be all over it - Mega TV Documentaries on how Harper failed to protect Canadian Citizens.