Our cooling world

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
70
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Oh I share what we've managed to do, and many of my friends and neighbours have followed suit.

The problem will rise, when the hydro companies have to jack their rates to keep the coffers full. Or pass on the cost of scheming, top the customers.
Anything worthwhile in life comes with a cost.
And who ultimately footed the bill?
I'm not sure. I know T-C squawked a bit because it meant dipping into its profits. Same for Celgar. But I am not sure if the taxpayers chipped in to help them clean up or not. We're all better off for the cleanup, though. The financial end of it is only a part of the issue. It is sometimes tough to get people to see past the finacial end of things, though, even if you point out the long term benefits in the economic sense.
It is much better and cheaper, too, in most cases, to be clean in the first place than make a mess and then have to clean up.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Don't be silly. We rely on what we know and we rely on what the evidence points to, not what politicians, newsmedia, etc. steer us into.

The "science" (on all sides) has been corrupted by numerous factors, media, politics and financial among them... That said, what do we really know.

Wrong. Ya think? The globe isn't cooling.

Relative to when? Last year, last decade, last 1000 years or the last 10 million years?

the answer to that question isn't so clear any more, is it?

Wrong again. There are people that deny the world is round

At one point, "science" dictated that the world was round and the Earth was the center of the universe. Science doesn't exactly have the best track-record, does it?

We did the same. Our total bill for electricity last year was about $325. Then we started bugging neighbors about rearranging their lifestyles to save money and clean air, water, etc.

That's great (really), but depending on how finicky you want to get about humanity's impact on the globe, the simple fact that you and I exist is damnation right there... My question; how fine would you like to split these hairs?
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Anything worthwhile in life comes with a cost.
Although I agree. I see alot of people pushing for change that they haven't a single idea, of how that will affect those around them.

Many people in my area are on a fixed income, being retired. They recently had a tax increase, that was almost punitive. That on top of soaring utility rates. I can only imagine what will happen when the Gov't is forced to blindly jump onboard a carbon scheme.

It is much better and cheaper, too, in most cases, to be clean in the first place than make a mess and then have to clean up.
Agreed, 100%. But the bottom line is always more import.

I'm all for attempting to fix things that have gone terribly awry, but I don't know if I can stand by and watch people be railroaded out of their homes over it.

There has to be a more fair and balanced way to do it.

Yet no one is even looking in that direction. All I see is chest thumping about we did it, we need to fix and damn those that ask to many questions.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
70
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
The "science" (on all sides) has been corrupted by numerous factors, media, politics and financial among them... That said, what do we really know.
Yes, there has been manipulation on all sides.
What we know is that the world is warming, it is warming at a faster rate than ever before, that the rise in GHGs is parallel to the warming, that we pollute, that it is likely that the pollution has had an effect on climate.

Relative to when? Last year, last decade, last 1000 years or the last 10 million years?
I'd have thought it obvious; relative to before we started polluting on such a grand scale.

the answer to that question isn't so clear any more, is it?
To you and some others perhaps. Not so with everyone.

At one point, "science" dictated that the world was round and the Earth was the center of the universe. Science doesn't exactly have the best track-record, does it?
It doesn't? It seems to me that science has a pretty good record of discovering things, explaining things, and amending its mistakes as it moves along. Science used to say the Earth was the center of the universe. It doesn't any more.

That's great (really), but depending on how finicky you want to get about humanity's impact on the globe, the simple fact that you and I exist is damnation right there... My question; how fine would you like to split these hairs?
Anna and I did as much as we could think of. At some time in the future we may do even more to lessen our impact. We weren't splitting anything because that isn't the focus. The focus was to do what we could. It still is the focus. Don't sweat the details until after you sweated the major issues.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Yes, there has been manipulation on all sides.
What we know is that the world is warming, it is warming at a faster rate than ever before, that the rise in GHGs is parallel to the warming, that we pollute, that it is likely that the pollution has had an effect on climate.

The debate that is in focus right now relates to whether any warming/cooling relates to a terrestrial trend or how much) is impacted by human variables.

At present, no one - absolutely no one - has a functional understanding that would be capable of isolating minute variables like humanity. That doesn't mean that it is or isn't happening, it means that we don't know.

Now, if you want to say that we impact the system, as a statement it is correct. However, the same will apply to a solitary mosquito - it will also impact the system, so what's the answer, eradicate all life on the planet in hopes that a static equilibrium is achieved?


I'd have thought it obvious; relative to before we started polluting on such a grand scale.

The geological record is pretty clear.. There were significant swings long before man walked the Earth... That in itself is obvious.

To you and some others perhaps. Not so with everyone.

That argument goes both ways, doesn't it?

It doesn't? It seems to me that science has a pretty good record of discovering things, explaining things, and amending its mistakes as it moves along. Science used to say the Earth was the center of the universe. It doesn't any more.

What that statement indicates is that science dynamic, but is only accurate in hindsight. A geocentric planet and flat Earth were factual based on the "science" of the time, today, that is clearly not the case.

Saying that AGW is factual because science says so (particularly in light that there is no uniform agreement, or anything close to it) is a real stretch.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
70
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
The debate that is in focus right now relates to whether any warming/cooling relates to a terrestrial trend or how much) is impacted by human variables.

At present, no one - absolutely no one - has a functional understanding that would be capable of isolating minute variables like humanity. That doesn't mean that it is or isn't happening, it means that we don't know.

Now, if you want to say that we impact the system, as a statement it is correct. However, the same will apply to a solitary mosquito - it will also impact the system, so what's the answer, eradicate all life on the planet in hopes that a static equilibrium is achieved?
Don't be silly. Life is life and life cannot prevent impact of life unless it quits living.
We pollute. We can prevent pollution (or at least cut down a lot) without dying off. It's a matter of ability to choose. So far, we've chosen to pollute. We can also choose to not pollute. A mosquito (or us either) have no choice but to live or not. There's a huge difference.

The geological record is pretty clear.. There were significant swings long before man walked the Earth... That in itself is obvious.
Yes, but not at the quick rate that has happened in the past couple hundred years.

That argument goes both ways, doesn't it?
Yes it does. There are also people tyhat blindly put faith in science without investigating whether the science is valid or not. Astrology, for instance, used to be considered a science, as did the alchemical idea of turning cheaper metals into gold. We know better now.

What that statement indicates is that science dynamic, but is only accurate in hindsight. A geocentric planet and flat Earth were factual based on the "science" of the time, today, that is clearly not the case.
It is not the business of science to predict, so yes, what we learn from science is (hindsight). As far as I know, foresight is iffy.

Saying that AGW is factual because science says so (particularly in light that there is no uniform agreement, or anything close to it) is a real stretch.
Uniform agreement? Yeah, Galileo was wrong because the consensus said he was wrong. lol

In this case the evidence points to AGW. Clear the political, religious, etc. crap away and you have the bare science.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
At present, no one - absolutely no one - has a functional understanding that would be capable of isolating minute variables like humanity. That doesn't mean that it is or isn't happening, it means that we don't know.

That's categorically untrue.

Scientists know what the fingerprints are associated with various forcings on the climate. They have found the fingerprint of an apparent enhanced greenhouse warming in our climate system. They know how much of our emissions are being absorbed by the oceans and terrestrial biosphere. They know what the top of the atmosphere energy imbalance is. They know which spectral bands the outgoing radiation is being trapped at, and they have confirmed satellite observations with ground observations. They can reproduce the current warming with general circulation models (Fig. 9.5a).

They can identify using these models and all the known physics and observations that our activity is making the atmosphere opaque to that outgoing longwave radiation. There is nothing minute about it. It's certainly a smaller signal than the year to year and decade to decade variability, but we have many decades of observations now and the signal stands out crystal clear.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Sea ice update for "our cooling world"

Ice Volume anomaly, June 18, 2010



Ice extent, June 26, 2010

 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
113
Vancouver Island
Done, I no longer drive a pick up everywhere, I bought a fuel effecient Honda Civic for commuting and some work related stuff, when able to.

We cut back our hydro consumption, drastically.

We eat more organic and wild foods then we purchase.

We pick up more trash then we create when we go fishing or hunting.

This has saved me money...

And it didn't cost my neighbours a cent.

So what do I do now to force the Gov't and companies to join me, without costing my neighbours more money? I mean, if I want to go ahead and change the world, I should do so on my own dime. Not my neighbours, they might not be able to afford it.
Been doing these things for years. Even though I have a company truck I often take our 17 yr.old Mazda pickup when running around and use my own gas.(actually it is just that it is so much easier to drive in town than a 4x4 crewcab). Part of our power is solar, we eat mostly organic food and almost never touch junk food. Recycle all we can even though the Regional District is no longer allowing glass in the recycling program. They now take food waste instead which does us rural people no good. Heat is with wood from our own property. Can't do much more given the lack of government help.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
113,734
12,950
113
Low Earth Orbit
Cooling eh? When it was winter here people claimed "it's cold". Now that it is winter in the southern hemispehere people are shocked and say "it's cold".

NO F 'N **** SHERLOCK!!!
 

Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
34,871
116
63
unusual

un·u·su·al [ un yoo əl ]
adjective

Definition:
1. remarkable: remarkable or out of the ordinary

2. rare: not common or familiar

3. hard to understand: especially for AGW advocates

un·u·su·al·ly adverb
un·u·su·al·ness noun
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
55
Oshawa
Perhaps they should travel to the south of England where they are having a heat wave and beginning to ration water.

Weather is very unpredictable.

It has been said that the difference between weather and climate is that climate is what we expect and weather is what we get. Meteorologists consider climate to be the long term manifestation of either the condition or the course of the weather, and climate is defined by the statistical collection of weather conditions for a given region during a specified interval of time, usually several decades (see the Glossary of Meteorology, American Meteorological Society, 1986, or National Climate Data Center U.S. Climate Normals for more details). Given this definition of climate and its distinction from weather, a single weather event, or even a spell of unusual weather, may be unprecedented and still well within the bounds of "normal" climate variability.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Cold snap set to stay

By Amy Simmons
Updated 6 hours 46 minutes ago
Experts say it is unusual to see such widespread cold weather in June. (User submitted: Rick Box)


People across south-east Australia are complaining about unusually chilly temperatures and experts say there will be no relief from the cold until Sunday at the earliest.

Cold snap set to stay - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Big deal. What does that prove?
When they had summer it was one of the hottest on record.

unusual

un·u·su·al [ un yoo əl ]
adjective

Definition:
1. remarkable: remarkable or out of the ordinary

2. rare: not common or familiar

3. hard to understand: especially for AGW advocates

un·u·su·al·ly adverb
un·u·su·al·ness noun
What isn't unusual is some people being confused about weather anomalies and climate.
I repeat what Pet said, "Cooling eh? When it was winter here people claimed "it's cold". Now that it is winter in the southern hemispehere people are shocked and say "it's cold".

NO F 'N **** SHERLOCK!!! " and our winter here was an extremely warm one.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
unusual

un·u·su·al [ un yoo əl ]
adjective

Definition:
1. remarkable: remarkable or out of the ordinary

2. rare: not common or familiar

3. hard to understand: especially for AGW advocates

un·u·su·al·ly adverb
un·u·su·al·ness noun

:D

Walt, apparently you have a hard time with what unusual is too. Or, you think unusual weather events are indicative of global cooling...a phenomenon which is completely ad hoc and without robust agreement or predictive capacity.

Hilarious, as usual!