Just the Facts
Agree that there are many examples of violence and religious extremism on both sides? Ummm, that was my point. Of course I agree. :-|
Of course you can post examples of pre-1948 war violence by Zionist Jews against the locals. I can post examples of violence by Jamaican gangs against locals in the Jane-Finch corridor. It hardly follows that Jamaicans came to Toronto with the intent of taking Toronto by force and ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jamaicans.
Jamaicans come to Canada as immigrants intending to fit into Canadian society, not conquerers intent on cleansing the land of non-Rastafarians....
It's interesting how you try to paint
all violence by Jewish gangs as a matte of Zionist policy, but Violence by Arabs is always "criminal activity not sanctioned by the state"; even in light of the fact the Al-Qassam "
even managed to obtain a fatwa from the Mufti of Damascus, Sheikh Badr al-Din al-Taji al-Hasani, authorizing the use of violence against the British and the Jews."
That's not what I said. Zionist policy is to create a homeland for Jews in the middle of an area which was predominantly non-Jewish. accomplishing that requires the removal of all non-Jews in the areas they want for a homeland.
I disagree with collective punishment. Ottomans were justified in seeking out traitors and holding them accountable for their actions. All nations have that right. Violent acts should lead to prison sentences and non-violent acts should lead to exile.
Not all acts of violence committed by the immigrants against the locals were motivated by Zionism. Some violent acts were just crimes unmotivated by a religious based entitlement.
Zionist activities became violent over time. Zionists started out by raising money and buying land. Zionists bought land and compensated the inhabitants fairly. If Zionism had stuck with legal real estate transactions, there wouldn't be a problem. But Zionists got impatient, became well armed and organized and switched tactics to removing the locals by force and seizing the land without compensation. In hindsite it would have been far cheaper just to be patient and buy land. The current system of seizing and holding land by military force costs American taxpayers about $4-6 Billion annually.
That sounds pretty sanctioned to me.
Absolutely, as long as they knew their place.
Jews under the Ottoman Turks faced the same level of discrimination as other minorities. They were better treated by the Ottomans than how Israel treats people in Gaza and the West Bank. Even non-Jews in Israel proper are treated worse than Jews under Ottoman rule. The Ottomans didn't care what their minorities did as long as they paid their taxes and remained loyal subjects. Non-Jewish Israeli citizens don't have the same access to education or basic services as Jewish citizens. They've had their homes declared abandoned, expropriated and either demolished or handed over to Jewish immigrants, because they weren't Jewish. Non-Jewish citizens face restrictions on building new homes and sponsoring relatives to settle in Israel.
What do you suppose would be the Arab reaction if Jews proposed to do the same to the Arabs? I think the words "racist" and "oppressors" would get a great work out. Yet when Arabs do it, hey, it's relative peace right?
Compare the treatment of Jews under the Ottomans, with the treatment of Jews in Europe or they way Israel treats Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. I'd rather be an Ottoman Jew, than an Arab Israeli or a Gazan.
Israel as the occupying power is responsible for the well being of the people living in the occupied territories. These areas are not autonomous and still lack responsible government. Israel routinely assassinates Palestinian leaders including those who advocate peaceful coexistance. The only Palestinian leaders Israel doesn't assassinate are the ones who serve Israel's purposes.
There used to many Jews in the Arab world. Now their numbers are negligible. Jews are not PERMITTED to enter Jordan (remember Jordan, that minor (78%) chunk of the Palestinian Mandate). A colleague of mine recently visited Israel. They went on a tour of Bethlehem. The Jewish tour guides who were leading their tour of Israel did not accompany them on that leg of the trip. Reason: "They would surely be killed".
Including Jordan in this is a numbers game. There were about as many Jews living in Jordan as there are Jews living in Antartica. Why would Jews have any claim to an area where very few of them lived???? What counts is how many Jews lived in Palestine and how much land they owned. As this map shows they owned a minority of Palistine:
When the UN divided this area, they gave 30% of the people (mostly Jewish immigrants) control over 70% of the land:
Zionist terrorist organizations weren't satisfied with taking most of the land and controlling the water. They wanted all of Palestine and they began ethnic cleansing campaign which consisted of rape, murder and torture. Their activities which began in 1947 are well documented by Jewish Israeli historians and are in Israeli government archives. Wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians is what caused the neighboring countries to intervene, not Israel's declaration of independance:
"The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN.62
Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before."...
http://www.representativepress.org/Sources.html
The Zionist immigrants were better trained, armed and led than the locals or armies from neighboring countries. The locals never had a chance. By the end of the war, the Zionist immigrants had ethnically cleansed most of Palestine of non-Jews and the border changed yet again:
Nations can move borders legally as a result of war. But its illegal not to allow the civilians to return home. Allowing the civilians to return was a condition Israel agreed to before they were recognized by the UN. Israel renegued on that agreement and technically still hasn't met the conditions for UN recognition.
In 1967, Israel invaded and occupied the rest of Palestine. Soon after they began putting Jewish only colonies throughout the West Bank and Gaza. Kicking people out of their homes and stealing their property is what drove a minority of locals to violence. Israel retreated from their Gaza colonies because they were undefendable, not good will. Today, Gaza is a concentration camp and only a small portion of the West Bank is actually inhabited by Palestinians. This map shows in detail how most of the West Bank is off limits to locals:
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf
Most of the West Bank consists of Jewish only colonies and IDF military zones. The rest is divided into a series of concentration camps surrounded by walls, barbed wire, kill zones and guard towers.
Four million Palestinians today live either as prisoners inside compounds surrounded by walls guarded by Israeli soldiers or refugees if they live in a neighboring country.
Notice how much concern Israel apologists have for the welfare of these innocent men, women and children:
At the same time, Israel's biggest threat (next to being vapourized by a nuke from Iran or Pakistan) is the Arab demographic within Israel. It's actually part of the "wipe Israel off the map" strategy:
I've never heard one of them express concern for them. How compassionate is that? They barely acknowledge their existance, let alone their suffering.
As the maps show above, Israel is in no danger of being "wiped off the map". That's just BS propaganda to hide the fact that effectively Palestine has been wiped off the map. It isn't even referred to as Palestine anymore. The little bit of Palestine inhabitated by Palestinians is just a small portion of an area known as the "occupied territories".
We must establish scenarios for the crisis management in the future. In these scenarios, there should be a special status for the 1948 Palestinians. It is not long before they become the supreme [decision-makers], who control the conflict. . .
The demographic threat does not derive solely from the 1948 Palestinians' natural increase, but also from the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel. These stay in Israel and create [a situation] through marriage with citizens of the 1948 population
The minority of Palestinians who managed to stay in their homes have a higher birthrate, than their Jewish neighbors. That's a consequence of a lower standard of living. People getting married and having children is considered a "threat". Now that's pretty screwed up.
Dr. Wahid Abd Al-Magid, the editor of "Arab Strategic Report" yearbook published by Al-Ahram, owned by the Egyptian government
Chicago Sun-Times,
Aug 3, 2001
"the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel". And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs. You have your work cut out for you.
Actually the mainstream Zionist plot was to remove them from their homes by BUYING everything they had of value... which, incidentally, increased exponentially when the Zionists came and developed the land and created an economy in the region.
Hmmm.
No kidding. They could have at least offered to relocate you to a millet.
Yup, on that we agree.
Their hand is so upper that if they had any inclinitation whatsoever to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine of non-Jews, there would be no non-Jews in Palestine. Instead, we see non-Jews in Palestine beginning to dwarf the number of Jews in Palestine, to the extent that Jews of Palestine are genuinely concerned about their future.
And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs.
The maps and links above speak for themselves. The ethnic cleansing process is incomplete, but ongoing. Before 1948, Jewish immigrants lived in small enclaves surrounded by Arabs and Muslims. 60 years later, 4 million descendants of the original inhabitants live in refugee camps inside and outside of Israel. The few who remain inside, live in densely populated small enclaves surrounded by walls and armed guards. Palestinians are subjected to daily acts of state sanctioned terrorism. By any definition, what has happened and continues to happen in Israel and the occupied territories to these people meets the definition of ethnic cleansing.
Even Jewish Israelis recognize this:
[SIZE=+1]September 19, 2007[/SIZE]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+3]Israel's Agenda For Ethnic Cleansing and Transfer [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=+2]By VICTORIA BUCH [/SIZE]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]T[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]he stage for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has been set in the Occupied Territories, and ethnic cleansing is in progress. At present, this is the major project of the state of Israel. For an impartial person of medium intelligence, a tour of the Occupied Territories may be sufficient to understand this fact. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The prime ethnic cleansing tool is, forever, land grab of Palestinian property in conjunction with expansion of settlements. Various stages of annexation process are in evidence in the originally rural part of the West Bank, constituting 60 per cent of its area. By now, nine per cent of the West Bank land has been transferred to the direct control of the settlements. A recent Peace Now investigation (July 2007) revealed that only twelve per cent of this land is being used at all. "The state earmarks huge tracts for the settlements, out of all proportion to their size, in order to prevent Palestinian construction in those areas. Yet once an area is closed to Palestinians, the settlers begin seizing adjacent Palestinian lands, often privately owned, that lie outside their jurisdiction"....[/SIZE][/FONT]
...
Victoria Buch is an Israeli academic, anti-occupation activist, and a member of the editorial board of the Occupation Magazine
http://www.counterpunch.org/buch09192007.html
Hmmm, incovenient truths.
A lot of physicists do.