New Middle East
- Thread starter darkbeaver
- Start date
``Zionist terrorist organizations used rape, torture and murder, before, during and after the 1948 war in an attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestine of non-Jews. ``
Also see my posts re Einstein's letter to the NYTimes and the proofs he provided on this specific matter.
Also see my posts re Einstein's letter to the NYTimes and the proofs he provided on this specific matter.
There's absolutely nothing there that isn't tit for tat. Arabs and Jews were killing each other in Palestine for 1400 years.
Inside the towns, Jews and other dhimmis were frequently attacked, wounded, and even killed by local Muslimsand Turkish soldiers. Such attacks were frequently for trivial reasons: Wilson [in British Foreign Office correspondence] recalled having met a Jew who had been badly wounded by a Turkish soldier for not having instantly dismounted when ordered to give up his donkey to a soldier of the Sultan. Many Jews were killed for less. On occasion the authorities attempted to get some form of redress but this was by no means always the case: the Turkish authorities themselves were sometimes responsible for beating Jews to death for some unproven charge. After one such occasion [British Consul] Young remarked: ‘I must say I am sorry and surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part- for certainly what I have seen of him I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity- but it was a Jew- without friends or protection- it serves to show well that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life’
…In fact, it took some time [i.e., at least a decade after the 1839 reforms] before these courts did accept dhimmi testimony in Palestine. The fact that Jews were represented on the meclis [provincial legal council] did not contribute a great deal to the amelioration of the legal position of the Jews: the Jewish representatives were tolerated grudgingly and were humiliated and intimidated to the point that they were afraid to offer any opposition to the Muslim representatives. In addition the constitution of the meclis was in no sense fairly representative of the population. In Jerusalem in the 1870s the meclis consisted of four Muslims, three Christians and only one Jew- at a time when Jews constituted over half the population of the city…Some years after the promulgation of the hatt-i-serif [Tanzimat reform edicts] Binyamin [note: from “Eight Years in Asia and Africa from 1846 to 1855”, p.44] was still able to write of the Jews- ‘they are entirely destitute of every legal protection’…Perhaps even more to the point, the courts were biased against the Jews and even when a case was heard in a properly assembled court where dhimmi testimony was admissible the court would still almost invariably rule against the Jews. It should be noted that a non-dhimmi [eg., foreign] Jew was still not permitted to appear and witness in either the mahkama [specific Muslim council] or the meclis.
Tudor Parfitt, The Jews of Palestine, 1800-1882 The Boydell Press, 1987
“ on April 1 [1917] an order was given to deport all the Jews from Tel Aviv, including citizens of the Central Powers, within forty-eight hours. A week before, three hundred Jews were expelled from Jerusalem: Jamal Pasha [one of the triumvirate of Young Turk supreme leaders, Minister of the Navy, and commander of the Fourth Army in the Levant] declared that their fate would be that of the Armenians; eight thousand deportees from Tel Aviv were not allowed to take any provisions with them, and after the expulsion their houses were looted by Bedouin mobs; two Yemenite Jews who tried to oppose the looting were hung at the entrance to Tel Aviv so that all might see, and other Jews were found dead in the Dunes around Tel Aviv.”
Yair Auron, The Banality of Indifference, p. 77
As for religious motivation, there is certainly no shortage of it on the Arab side. It's not just Jews who consider themselves God's chosen ones.
(Sheikh) Izz al-Din al-Qassam (1871 or 1882-1935) was an Al-Azhar-trained cleric who studied under Muhammad Abdu, a well-known Muslim thinker. Al-Qassam was reportedly a participant in anti-British activities during his sojourn in Cairo. Assisted by Ottoman authorities, he later organized an anti-Italian campaign from Syria, i.e., “He called the people to jihad”, when Italy invaded Libya in 1912. By early 1921, al-Qassam moved to Palestine, settling in Haifa, where he was shortly afterward appointed imam of the al-Istiqlal mosque (January 1922). A persuasive orator and preacher, al-Qassam soon gathered around him a coterie of dedicated followers. Just prior to the 1929 riots and anti-Jewish pogroms, al-Qassam had secured three critically influential positions which allowed him to disseminate his militant ideology- imam, Shari’a Register of the northern (Palestinian) area, and prominent Young Men’s Muslim Association member.
Al-Qassam’s Weltanschauung was wholly rooted in Islam, which constituted the nexus of all his ideas and deeds. Al-Qassam was an orthodox Muslim, whose supreme ideal was to fulfill the precepts of his faith and do the Creator’s will, and whose conviction it was that Islam must be defended and its orthodox form preserved. This was to be accomplished by defending Islam internally against infidelity and heresy; and politically against external enemies, namely the West- with which Islam was in political and ideological conflict- and the Zionist enterprise…In his sermons [following his mentor, Muhammad Abdu], he preached for…a return to the principles and values of the original…faith…in the spirit of the Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence…manifested, inter alia, in a pronounced xenophobic and anti-Jewish militant stance. He preached the preservation of the country’s Muslim-Arab character and urged an uncompromising and intensified struggle against the British Mandate and the Jewish National Home in Palestine. Palestine could be freed from the danger of Jewish domination, he believed, not by sporadic protests, demonstrations, or riots which were soon forgotten, but by an organized and methodical armed struggle. In his sermons he often quoted verses from the Qur’an referring to jihad, linking them with topical matters and his own political ideas.
Al-Qassam actually put his preaching into practice…After the 1929 riots, al-Qassam intensified his anti-Jewish agitation. He justified on religious grounds the excesses committed during the riots, and in 1930, even managed to obtain a fatwa from the Mufti of Damascus, Sheikh Badr al-Din al-Taji al-Hasani, authorizing the use of violence against the British and the Jews. He made a practice of reading this fatwa in mosques and in secret meetings with his disciples and followers…in the early 1930s [al-Qassam] proceeded to establish a secret association, called ‘The Black Hand’ (al-kaff al-aswad), whose aim was to kill Jews and generally to terrorize the Jewish population in the North.
Shai Lachman, “Arab Rebellion and Terrorism in Palestine 1929-39”,
Tit for Tat? I agree somewhat. I don't dispute the above events happened.
Some of the above are examples of religious extremism and criminal activity not sanctioned by the state. Other are probably reactions by the state to what they percieved as treason. During WW II, many Jews supported the enemies of the Ottoman Turks.
I could post a similar list of criminal activity and religious extremism to support the assertion that the immigrants came to Palestine with the intent of taking Palestine by force and ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jews. (would you like me to post examples of pre-1948 war violence by Zionist Jews against the locals or will you agree that there are also many examples of violence and religious extremism on both sides?) Its hard to tell which acts of violence caused the other.
But I do know that for the most part, Jews lived in relative peace in Palestine for centuries before Zionism.
Jews were treated about the same as other religious minorities under the Ottoman Turks. Jews, like Greeks and Armenians were recognized as millets (religious communities) and granted a degree of autonomy in their communal affairs. Jews, Greeks and Armenians were allowed to operate schools, religious establishments, and courts based on their own customary law. I would say that in general, Jews faced less violence, discrimination and oppression under the Ottoman Turks, then they did in Europe... but that's not saying much.
I would also agree that for centuries, Jews have gotten screwed over by their host countries and neighbors. That didn't stop when Zionists Jews showed up in Palestine over a century ago and began preparing the ground for today's on-going ethnic cleansing campaign. I imagine the locals felt threatened when they realized the goals of Zionism involved removing them from their homes and taking everything they had of value. Likely some locals reacted violently. I know I wouldn't be happy if someone showed up on my doorstep, claiming they had a religious based right to everything I own.
Back to the point. The violence didn't start or end in 1948. Atrocities were committed by both sides before and after the 1948 war. For the last 60 years, the immigrants have had the upper hand and they've used overwhelming firepower move forward their goal of cleansing Palestine of non-Jews because they are entitled to do so, based on their religion.
I agree with Albert Einstein.
Some of the above are examples of religious extremism and criminal activity not sanctioned by the state. Other are probably reactions by the state to what they percieved as treason. During WW II, many Jews supported the enemies of the Ottoman Turks.
I could post a similar list of criminal activity and religious extremism to support the assertion that the immigrants came to Palestine with the intent of taking Palestine by force and ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jews. (would you like me to post examples of pre-1948 war violence by Zionist Jews against the locals or will you agree that there are also many examples of violence and religious extremism on both sides?) Its hard to tell which acts of violence caused the other.
But I do know that for the most part, Jews lived in relative peace in Palestine for centuries before Zionism.
Jews were treated about the same as other religious minorities under the Ottoman Turks. Jews, like Greeks and Armenians were recognized as millets (religious communities) and granted a degree of autonomy in their communal affairs. Jews, Greeks and Armenians were allowed to operate schools, religious establishments, and courts based on their own customary law. I would say that in general, Jews faced less violence, discrimination and oppression under the Ottoman Turks, then they did in Europe... but that's not saying much.
I would also agree that for centuries, Jews have gotten screwed over by their host countries and neighbors. That didn't stop when Zionists Jews showed up in Palestine over a century ago and began preparing the ground for today's on-going ethnic cleansing campaign. I imagine the locals felt threatened when they realized the goals of Zionism involved removing them from their homes and taking everything they had of value. Likely some locals reacted violently. I know I wouldn't be happy if someone showed up on my doorstep, claiming they had a religious based right to everything I own.
Back to the point. The violence didn't start or end in 1948. Atrocities were committed by both sides before and after the 1948 war. For the last 60 years, the immigrants have had the upper hand and they've used overwhelming firepower move forward their goal of cleansing Palestine of non-Jews because they are entitled to do so, based on their religion.
I agree with Albert Einstein.
ITN
You're right my posts are old and predictable, just like the round of bafflegab being discussed in this thread. Zionists have through their influence in America and many other nations divided people over this "issue", so they've been successful in their efforts to divert perspective and occlude the situation.
You on the other hand don't have what it takes to acknowledge your own short-comings when it comes to "arguing" a perspective. You'd rather everyone wear the same symbol on their shirt sleeves as you. That American flag on your tunic isn't really a symbolic composition about colonies and states, it's the blood of anyone flowing across the field of white America industrialism, greed and neo-imperialism. You put on a good front, but you're a fraud when it comes to sporting cliches like "defend your right to say it"....
You don't seem to understand the dynamics at play, either you don't understand or you're cut from the same fabric as the fascist and the Nazis....
While you and similar minded Americans profit on the suffering of millions, take the world to war because you believe everything your "embedded" media informs you of....the world and everyone in it is in crisis because you and folk like you embrace sham and disingenuousness and reject truth and reality. While your nation suffers from California to New Orleans from illegal immigration problems, to surges in racism and horror aimed at African Americans, the world see's just how far the "Americans" have progressed for all their bluster and bullshyte about principle, rule of law and "freedom"
and democracy.....
It's you and your attitude and contributions that are tired ITN, because they're clustered in the fantasy of what once was and not what America has become. You've voluntarily resigned your objectivity and your availability to decency. I'll keep posting if for no other reason than to rally some resistance to the "canned" thinking of people like you.
Hey it's a new month! Surely there's some place you can lead American forces into for another wonderful invasion isn't there? You lovely folk are hanging nooses in trees and whining about American corporations selling poison on your store shelves. Your government is comprised of liars and theives that re-write international laws that your nation once supported. Your elections are a sham and your politicians range from dirty-old-men in public washrooms to betrayal of your CIA people by your government administration. Nothings changed in America ITN, that's why my posts seem so familiar.
You're right my posts are old and predictable, just like the round of bafflegab being discussed in this thread. Zionists have through their influence in America and many other nations divided people over this "issue", so they've been successful in their efforts to divert perspective and occlude the situation.
You on the other hand don't have what it takes to acknowledge your own short-comings when it comes to "arguing" a perspective. You'd rather everyone wear the same symbol on their shirt sleeves as you. That American flag on your tunic isn't really a symbolic composition about colonies and states, it's the blood of anyone flowing across the field of white America industrialism, greed and neo-imperialism. You put on a good front, but you're a fraud when it comes to sporting cliches like "defend your right to say it"....
You don't seem to understand the dynamics at play, either you don't understand or you're cut from the same fabric as the fascist and the Nazis....
While you and similar minded Americans profit on the suffering of millions, take the world to war because you believe everything your "embedded" media informs you of....the world and everyone in it is in crisis because you and folk like you embrace sham and disingenuousness and reject truth and reality. While your nation suffers from California to New Orleans from illegal immigration problems, to surges in racism and horror aimed at African Americans, the world see's just how far the "Americans" have progressed for all their bluster and bullshyte about principle, rule of law and "freedom"
and democracy.....
It's you and your attitude and contributions that are tired ITN, because they're clustered in the fantasy of what once was and not what America has become. You've voluntarily resigned your objectivity and your availability to decency. I'll keep posting if for no other reason than to rally some resistance to the "canned" thinking of people like you.
Hey it's a new month! Surely there's some place you can lead American forces into for another wonderful invasion isn't there? You lovely folk are hanging nooses in trees and whining about American corporations selling poison on your store shelves. Your government is comprised of liars and theives that re-write international laws that your nation once supported. Your elections are a sham and your politicians range from dirty-old-men in public washrooms to betrayal of your CIA people by your government administration. Nothings changed in America ITN, that's why my posts seem so familiar.
Agree that there are many examples of violence and religious extremism on both sides? Ummm, that was my point. Of course I agree. :-|
Of course you can post examples of pre-1948 war violence by Zionist Jews against the locals. I can post examples of violence by Jamaican gangs against locals in the Jane-Finch corridor. It hardly follows that Jamaicans came to Toronto with the intent of taking Toronto by force and ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jamaicans. It's interesting how you try to paint all violence by Jewish gangs as a matter of Zionist policy, but Violence by Arabs is always "criminal activity not sanctioned by the state"; even in light of the fact the Al-Qassam "even managed to obtain a fatwa from the Mufti of Damascus, Sheikh Badr al-Din al-Taji al-Hasani, authorizing the use of violence against the British and the Jews."
That sounds pretty sanctioned to me.
Absolutely, as long as they knew their place.
What do you suppose would be the Arab reaction if Jews proposed to do the same to the Arabs? I think the words "racist" and "oppressors" would get a great work out. Yet when Arabs do it, hey, it's relative peace right?
There used to many Jews in the Arab world. Now their numbers are negligible. Jews are not PERMITTED to enter Jordan (remember Jordan, that minor (78%) chunk of the Palestinian Mandate). A colleague of mine recently visited Israel. They went on a tour of Bethlehem. The Jewish tour guides who were leading their tour of Israel did not accompany them on that leg of the trip. Reason: "They would surely be killed".
At the same time, Israel's biggest threat (next to being vapourized by a nuke from Iran or Pakistan) is the Arab demographic within Israel. It's actually part of the "wipe Israel off the map" strategy:
We must establish scenarios for the crisis management in the future. In these scenarios, there should be a special status for the 1948 Palestinians. It is not long before they become the supreme [decision-makers], who control the conflict. . . .
The demographic threat does not derive solely from the 1948 Palestinians' natural increase, but also from the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel. These stay in Israel and create [a situation] through marriage with citizens of the 1948 population
Dr. Wahid Abd Al-Magid, the editor of "Arab Strategic Report" yearbook published by Al-Ahram, owned by the Egyptian government
Chicago Sun-Times, Aug 3, 2001
"the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel". And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs. You have your work cut out for you.
Actually the mainstream Zionist plot was to remove them from their homes by BUYING everything they had of value... which, incidentally, increased exponentially when the Zionists came and developed the land and created an economy in the region.
Hmmm.
No kidding. They could have at least offered to relocate you to a millet.
Yup, on that we agree.
Their hand is so upper that if they had any inclinitation whatsoever to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine of non-Jews, there would be no non-Jews in Palestine. Instead, we see non-Jews in Palestine beginning to dwarf the number of Jews in Palestine, to the extent that Jews of Palestine are genuinely concerned about their future.
And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs.
Hmmm, incovenient truths.
A lot of physicists do.
Just the Facts
Agree that there are many examples of violence and religious extremism on both sides? Ummm, that was my point. Of course I agree. :-|
Of course you can post examples of pre-1948 war violence by Zionist Jews against the locals. I can post examples of violence by Jamaican gangs against locals in the Jane-Finch corridor. It hardly follows that Jamaicans came to Toronto with the intent of taking Toronto by force and ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jamaicans.
Jamaicans come to Canada as immigrants intending to fit into Canadian society, not conquerers intent on cleansing the land of non-Rastafarians....
It's interesting how you try to paint all violence by Jewish gangs as a matte of Zionist policy, but Violence by Arabs is always "criminal activity not sanctioned by the state"; even in light of the fact the Al-Qassam "even managed to obtain a fatwa from the Mufti of Damascus, Sheikh Badr al-Din al-Taji al-Hasani, authorizing the use of violence against the British and the Jews."
That's not what I said. Zionist policy is to create a homeland for Jews in the middle of an area which was predominantly non-Jewish. accomplishing that requires the removal of all non-Jews in the areas they want for a homeland.
I disagree with collective punishment. Ottomans were justified in seeking out traitors and holding them accountable for their actions. All nations have that right. Violent acts should lead to prison sentences and non-violent acts should lead to exile.
Not all acts of violence committed by the immigrants against the locals were motivated by Zionism. Some violent acts were just crimes unmotivated by a religious based entitlement.
Zionist activities became violent over time. Zionists started out by raising money and buying land. Zionists bought land and compensated the inhabitants fairly. If Zionism had stuck with legal real estate transactions, there wouldn't be a problem. But Zionists got impatient, became well armed and organized and switched tactics to removing the locals by force and seizing the land without compensation. In hindsite it would have been far cheaper just to be patient and buy land. The current system of seizing and holding land by military force costs American taxpayers about $4-6 Billion annually.
That sounds pretty sanctioned to me.
Absolutely, as long as they knew their place.
Jews under the Ottoman Turks faced the same level of discrimination as other minorities. They were better treated by the Ottomans than how Israel treats people in Gaza and the West Bank. Even non-Jews in Israel proper are treated worse than Jews under Ottoman rule. The Ottomans didn't care what their minorities did as long as they paid their taxes and remained loyal subjects. Non-Jewish Israeli citizens don't have the same access to education or basic services as Jewish citizens. They've had their homes declared abandoned, expropriated and either demolished or handed over to Jewish immigrants, because they weren't Jewish. Non-Jewish citizens face restrictions on building new homes and sponsoring relatives to settle in Israel.
What do you suppose would be the Arab reaction if Jews proposed to do the same to the Arabs? I think the words "racist" and "oppressors" would get a great work out. Yet when Arabs do it, hey, it's relative peace right?
Compare the treatment of Jews under the Ottomans, with the treatment of Jews in Europe or they way Israel treats Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. I'd rather be an Ottoman Jew, than an Arab Israeli or a Gazan.
Israel as the occupying power is responsible for the well being of the people living in the occupied territories. These areas are not autonomous and still lack responsible government. Israel routinely assassinates Palestinian leaders including those who advocate peaceful coexistance. The only Palestinian leaders Israel doesn't assassinate are the ones who serve Israel's purposes.
There used to many Jews in the Arab world. Now their numbers are negligible. Jews are not PERMITTED to enter Jordan (remember Jordan, that minor (78%) chunk of the Palestinian Mandate). A colleague of mine recently visited Israel. They went on a tour of Bethlehem. The Jewish tour guides who were leading their tour of Israel did not accompany them on that leg of the trip. Reason: "They would surely be killed".
Including Jordan in this is a numbers game. There were about as many Jews living in Jordan as there are Jews living in Antartica. Why would Jews have any claim to an area where very few of them lived???? What counts is how many Jews lived in Palestine and how much land they owned. As this map shows they owned a minority of Palistine:
When the UN divided this area, they gave 30% of the people (mostly Jewish immigrants) control over 70% of the land:
Zionist terrorist organizations weren't satisfied with taking most of the land and controlling the water. They wanted all of Palestine and they began ethnic cleansing campaign which consisted of rape, murder and torture. Their activities which began in 1947 are well documented by Jewish Israeli historians and are in Israeli government archives. Wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians is what caused the neighboring countries to intervene, not Israel's declaration of independance:
The Zionist immigrants were better trained, armed and led than the locals or armies from neighboring countries. The locals never had a chance. By the end of the war, the Zionist immigrants had ethnically cleansed most of Palestine of non-Jews and the border changed yet again:
Nations can move borders legally as a result of war. But its illegal not to allow the civilians to return home. Allowing the civilians to return was a condition Israel agreed to before they were recognized by the UN. Israel renegued on that agreement and technically still hasn't met the conditions for UN recognition.
In 1967, Israel invaded and occupied the rest of Palestine. Soon after they began putting Jewish only colonies throughout the West Bank and Gaza. Kicking people out of their homes and stealing their property is what drove a minority of locals to violence. Israel retreated from their Gaza colonies because they were undefendable, not good will. Today, Gaza is a concentration camp and only a small portion of the West Bank is actually inhabited by Palestinians. This map shows in detail how most of the West Bank is off limits to locals:
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf
Most of the West Bank consists of Jewish only colonies and IDF military zones. The rest is divided into a series of concentration camps surrounded by walls, barbed wire, kill zones and guard towers.
Four million Palestinians today live either as prisoners inside compounds surrounded by walls guarded by Israeli soldiers or refugees if they live in a neighboring country.
Notice how much concern Israel apologists have for the welfare of these innocent men, women and children:
At the same time, Israel's biggest threat (next to being vapourized by a nuke from Iran or Pakistan) is the Arab demographic within Israel. It's actually part of the "wipe Israel off the map" strategy:
I've never heard one of them express concern for them. How compassionate is that? They barely acknowledge their existance, let alone their suffering.
As the maps show above, Israel is in no danger of being "wiped off the map". That's just BS propaganda to hide the fact that effectively Palestine has been wiped off the map. It isn't even referred to as Palestine anymore. The little bit of Palestine inhabitated by Palestinians is just a small portion of an area known as the "occupied territories".
We must establish scenarios for the crisis management in the future. In these scenarios, there should be a special status for the 1948 Palestinians. It is not long before they become the supreme [decision-makers], who control the conflict. . .
The demographic threat does not derive solely from the 1948 Palestinians' natural increase, but also from the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel. These stay in Israel and create [a situation] through marriage with citizens of the 1948 population
The minority of Palestinians who managed to stay in their homes have a higher birthrate, than their Jewish neighbors. That's a consequence of a lower standard of living. People getting married and having children is considered a "threat". Now that's pretty screwed up.
Dr. Wahid Abd Al-Magid, the editor of "Arab Strategic Report" yearbook published by Al-Ahram, owned by the Egyptian government
Chicago Sun-Times, Aug 3, 2001
"the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel". And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs. You have your work cut out for you.
Actually the mainstream Zionist plot was to remove them from their homes by BUYING everything they had of value... which, incidentally, increased exponentially when the Zionists came and developed the land and created an economy in the region.
Hmmm.
No kidding. They could have at least offered to relocate you to a millet.
Yup, on that we agree.
Their hand is so upper that if they had any inclinitation whatsoever to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine of non-Jews, there would be no non-Jews in Palestine. Instead, we see non-Jews in Palestine beginning to dwarf the number of Jews in Palestine, to the extent that Jews of Palestine are genuinely concerned about their future.
And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs.
The maps and links above speak for themselves. The ethnic cleansing process is incomplete, but ongoing. Before 1948, Jewish immigrants lived in small enclaves surrounded by Arabs and Muslims. 60 years later, 4 million descendants of the original inhabitants live in refugee camps inside and outside of Israel. The few who remain inside, live in densely populated small enclaves surrounded by walls and armed guards. Palestinians are subjected to daily acts of state sanctioned terrorism. By any definition, what has happened and continues to happen in Israel and the occupied territories to these people meets the definition of ethnic cleansing.
Even Jewish Israelis recognize this:
Hmmm, incovenient truths.
A lot of physicists do.
Agree that there are many examples of violence and religious extremism on both sides? Ummm, that was my point. Of course I agree. :-|
Of course you can post examples of pre-1948 war violence by Zionist Jews against the locals. I can post examples of violence by Jamaican gangs against locals in the Jane-Finch corridor. It hardly follows that Jamaicans came to Toronto with the intent of taking Toronto by force and ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jamaicans.
Jamaicans come to Canada as immigrants intending to fit into Canadian society, not conquerers intent on cleansing the land of non-Rastafarians....
It's interesting how you try to paint all violence by Jewish gangs as a matte of Zionist policy, but Violence by Arabs is always "criminal activity not sanctioned by the state"; even in light of the fact the Al-Qassam "even managed to obtain a fatwa from the Mufti of Damascus, Sheikh Badr al-Din al-Taji al-Hasani, authorizing the use of violence against the British and the Jews."
That's not what I said. Zionist policy is to create a homeland for Jews in the middle of an area which was predominantly non-Jewish. accomplishing that requires the removal of all non-Jews in the areas they want for a homeland.
I disagree with collective punishment. Ottomans were justified in seeking out traitors and holding them accountable for their actions. All nations have that right. Violent acts should lead to prison sentences and non-violent acts should lead to exile.
Not all acts of violence committed by the immigrants against the locals were motivated by Zionism. Some violent acts were just crimes unmotivated by a religious based entitlement.
Zionist activities became violent over time. Zionists started out by raising money and buying land. Zionists bought land and compensated the inhabitants fairly. If Zionism had stuck with legal real estate transactions, there wouldn't be a problem. But Zionists got impatient, became well armed and organized and switched tactics to removing the locals by force and seizing the land without compensation. In hindsite it would have been far cheaper just to be patient and buy land. The current system of seizing and holding land by military force costs American taxpayers about $4-6 Billion annually.
That sounds pretty sanctioned to me.
Absolutely, as long as they knew their place.
Jews under the Ottoman Turks faced the same level of discrimination as other minorities. They were better treated by the Ottomans than how Israel treats people in Gaza and the West Bank. Even non-Jews in Israel proper are treated worse than Jews under Ottoman rule. The Ottomans didn't care what their minorities did as long as they paid their taxes and remained loyal subjects. Non-Jewish Israeli citizens don't have the same access to education or basic services as Jewish citizens. They've had their homes declared abandoned, expropriated and either demolished or handed over to Jewish immigrants, because they weren't Jewish. Non-Jewish citizens face restrictions on building new homes and sponsoring relatives to settle in Israel.
What do you suppose would be the Arab reaction if Jews proposed to do the same to the Arabs? I think the words "racist" and "oppressors" would get a great work out. Yet when Arabs do it, hey, it's relative peace right?
Compare the treatment of Jews under the Ottomans, with the treatment of Jews in Europe or they way Israel treats Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. I'd rather be an Ottoman Jew, than an Arab Israeli or a Gazan.
Israel as the occupying power is responsible for the well being of the people living in the occupied territories. These areas are not autonomous and still lack responsible government. Israel routinely assassinates Palestinian leaders including those who advocate peaceful coexistance. The only Palestinian leaders Israel doesn't assassinate are the ones who serve Israel's purposes.
There used to many Jews in the Arab world. Now their numbers are negligible. Jews are not PERMITTED to enter Jordan (remember Jordan, that minor (78%) chunk of the Palestinian Mandate). A colleague of mine recently visited Israel. They went on a tour of Bethlehem. The Jewish tour guides who were leading their tour of Israel did not accompany them on that leg of the trip. Reason: "They would surely be killed".
Including Jordan in this is a numbers game. There were about as many Jews living in Jordan as there are Jews living in Antartica. Why would Jews have any claim to an area where very few of them lived???? What counts is how many Jews lived in Palestine and how much land they owned. As this map shows they owned a minority of Palistine:
When the UN divided this area, they gave 30% of the people (mostly Jewish immigrants) control over 70% of the land:
Zionist terrorist organizations weren't satisfied with taking most of the land and controlling the water. They wanted all of Palestine and they began ethnic cleansing campaign which consisted of rape, murder and torture. Their activities which began in 1947 are well documented by Jewish Israeli historians and are in Israeli government archives. Wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians is what caused the neighboring countries to intervene, not Israel's declaration of independance:
The Zionist immigrants were better trained, armed and led than the locals or armies from neighboring countries. The locals never had a chance. By the end of the war, the Zionist immigrants had ethnically cleansed most of Palestine of non-Jews and the border changed yet again:
Nations can move borders legally as a result of war. But its illegal not to allow the civilians to return home. Allowing the civilians to return was a condition Israel agreed to before they were recognized by the UN. Israel renegued on that agreement and technically still hasn't met the conditions for UN recognition.
In 1967, Israel invaded and occupied the rest of Palestine. Soon after they began putting Jewish only colonies throughout the West Bank and Gaza. Kicking people out of their homes and stealing their property is what drove a minority of locals to violence. Israel retreated from their Gaza colonies because they were undefendable, not good will. Today, Gaza is a concentration camp and only a small portion of the West Bank is actually inhabited by Palestinians. This map shows in detail how most of the West Bank is off limits to locals:
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf
Most of the West Bank consists of Jewish only colonies and IDF military zones. The rest is divided into a series of concentration camps surrounded by walls, barbed wire, kill zones and guard towers.
Four million Palestinians today live either as prisoners inside compounds surrounded by walls guarded by Israeli soldiers or refugees if they live in a neighboring country.
Notice how much concern Israel apologists have for the welfare of these innocent men, women and children:
At the same time, Israel's biggest threat (next to being vapourized by a nuke from Iran or Pakistan) is the Arab demographic within Israel. It's actually part of the "wipe Israel off the map" strategy:
I've never heard one of them express concern for them. How compassionate is that? They barely acknowledge their existance, let alone their suffering.
As the maps show above, Israel is in no danger of being "wiped off the map". That's just BS propaganda to hide the fact that effectively Palestine has been wiped off the map. It isn't even referred to as Palestine anymore. The little bit of Palestine inhabitated by Palestinians is just a small portion of an area known as the "occupied territories".
We must establish scenarios for the crisis management in the future. In these scenarios, there should be a special status for the 1948 Palestinians. It is not long before they become the supreme [decision-makers], who control the conflict. . .
The demographic threat does not derive solely from the 1948 Palestinians' natural increase, but also from the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel. These stay in Israel and create [a situation] through marriage with citizens of the 1948 population
The minority of Palestinians who managed to stay in their homes have a higher birthrate, than their Jewish neighbors. That's a consequence of a lower standard of living. People getting married and having children is considered a "threat". Now that's pretty screwed up.
Dr. Wahid Abd Al-Magid, the editor of "Arab Strategic Report" yearbook published by Al-Ahram, owned by the Egyptian government
Chicago Sun-Times, Aug 3, 2001
"the infiltration of thousands of Palestinians into Israel". And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs. You have your work cut out for you.
Actually the mainstream Zionist plot was to remove them from their homes by BUYING everything they had of value... which, incidentally, increased exponentially when the Zionists came and developed the land and created an economy in the region.
Hmmm.
No kidding. They could have at least offered to relocate you to a millet.
Yup, on that we agree.
Their hand is so upper that if they had any inclinitation whatsoever to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine of non-Jews, there would be no non-Jews in Palestine. Instead, we see non-Jews in Palestine beginning to dwarf the number of Jews in Palestine, to the extent that Jews of Palestine are genuinely concerned about their future.
And yet you try to convince me that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs.
The maps and links above speak for themselves. The ethnic cleansing process is incomplete, but ongoing. Before 1948, Jewish immigrants lived in small enclaves surrounded by Arabs and Muslims. 60 years later, 4 million descendants of the original inhabitants live in refugee camps inside and outside of Israel. The few who remain inside, live in densely populated small enclaves surrounded by walls and armed guards. Palestinians are subjected to daily acts of state sanctioned terrorism. By any definition, what has happened and continues to happen in Israel and the occupied territories to these people meets the definition of ethnic cleansing.
Even Jewish Israelis recognize this:
Hmmm, incovenient truths.
A lot of physicists do.
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I came across this today. More evidence of ethnic cleansing....not!
Thousands of Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship
As accepting Israeli citizenship was viewed by many within the community as tantamount to treason, most Palestinians opted to remain permanent residents and enjoy the benefits of living under Israeli sovereignty – full welfare rights, municipal voting rights and unrestricted movement - without putting their loyalty to the Palestinian Authority into question. The average Palestinian family in East Jerusalem currently receives a $770 monthly stipend from Israel.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468672,00.html
Thousands of Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship
As accepting Israeli citizenship was viewed by many within the community as tantamount to treason, most Palestinians opted to remain permanent residents and enjoy the benefits of living under Israeli sovereignty – full welfare rights, municipal voting rights and unrestricted movement - without putting their loyalty to the Palestinian Authority into question. The average Palestinian family in East Jerusalem currently receives a $770 monthly stipend from Israel.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468672,00.html
The complexities of this situation are better described by this more objective source:
Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1106/p06s01-wome.html
Also this B'Tselem article describes the precarious legal status of East Jerusalem's residents.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/Legal_Status.asp
I never claimed Zionists ethnically cleansed all of Palestine of non-Jews. The Zionists spared Jerusalem probably because they didn't want to turn the city into a war zone. Instead, the Zionists who run Israel have resorted to slower quasi-legal methods to ethnically cleanse Palestinians in Jerusalem.
Israel has a law which allows the state to confiscate the property of non-Israeli citizens if they "abandon" it.
When non-citizens loose access to their property, Israel declares the property abandoned and they loose their property.
Despite that risk, most Palestinians living in Jerusalem have stubbornly refused to give up their identity and refuse to help legitimize Israel's illegal occupation and annexation of Jerusalem by becoming Israeli citizens.
Recent rumors about an impending peace deal have forced many Palestinian residents to re-evaluate their situation pragmatically. Given a choice between living in poverty under the corrupt Palestinian authority or living in relative peace and prosperity as second class citizens under the Israeli authority, a sizable minority of resident Palestinians are choosing to give up their identity and help Israel legitimize its illegal occupation of East Jerusalem. As a bonus they loose the risk that their property could be declared abandoned and confiscated.
Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1106/p06s01-wome.html
Also this B'Tselem article describes the precarious legal status of East Jerusalem's residents.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/Legal_Status.asp
I never claimed Zionists ethnically cleansed all of Palestine of non-Jews. The Zionists spared Jerusalem probably because they didn't want to turn the city into a war zone. Instead, the Zionists who run Israel have resorted to slower quasi-legal methods to ethnically cleanse Palestinians in Jerusalem.
Israel has a law which allows the state to confiscate the property of non-Israeli citizens if they "abandon" it.
When non-citizens loose access to their property, Israel declares the property abandoned and they loose their property.
Despite that risk, most Palestinians living in Jerusalem have stubbornly refused to give up their identity and refuse to help legitimize Israel's illegal occupation and annexation of Jerusalem by becoming Israeli citizens.
Recent rumors about an impending peace deal have forced many Palestinian residents to re-evaluate their situation pragmatically. Given a choice between living in poverty under the corrupt Palestinian authority or living in relative peace and prosperity as second class citizens under the Israeli authority, a sizable minority of resident Palestinians are choosing to give up their identity and help Israel legitimize its illegal occupation of East Jerusalem. As a bonus they loose the risk that their property could be declared abandoned and confiscated.
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There are only two Mid East maps what will be acceptable. One says Israel and the other says Everybody else and both have fought for so long neither have an idea why they fight....
Woof!
Woof!
Real honest to goodness Judean Semites. Those are the people who the right to call themselves a nation not a bunch of Russian, Poles and Germans etc who are as white as paper and blond and blue eyed.
....and it's an old one too. I must have missed this one when I rolled
the other seventy or so together so we wouldn't have half a dozen
similar threads going at once....oh well.
