Healthcare system disintegration

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
:roll: Hey you guys - go heist someone elses thread.

Start your own if you have no interest in this topic. You are way off the topic and it is getting nasty - so please go away from here.


Moderators - please close this thread as the decent folk who initially gave me the info I requested did a good job of it and the rest is just garbage.

Thanks

Don't worry, the guy who started the nastiness is on "vacation". You want to discuss healthcare, I'll discuss healthcare. :lol:

What I ask from you: in the political sense who, what party, politicians, government bodies, are responsible for the hospital, clinic and healthcare facility closures?

In a list of who/what is to blame for the closures, I think you've listed #7,8,9 and 10. Let's go back to the beginning, it all starts with the patient. A big part of it is the patient's fault for living too long and requiring too many hoses and wires in the final stages- that is those that get to the final stages. Take a good look at the number of people in their 40s who are overweight and don't exercise, there's the cause of heart bypass operations at $10,000 a shot or more, not to mention diabetes, cancer etc. Then there is too much smoking, the main cause of emphysema and heart disease. Then there are the people who tie up the E.R. with things like a cold or the flu or a sprain. Then there are the administrators and bureaucrats syphoning off more money. Then we get to the prescribed drugs.............generic is good and cheaper, we don't need the fancy designer drugs. So the culprits in your list aren't really the guilty ones, they are just the fall guys taking drastic action so the system isn't totally bankrupted.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
When you pay enough dollars to receive it.

Not a particularly thoughtful answer when you consider that Canada has the second highest per capita health care costs in the world. Canadians are paying more than enough to create a first class health care system, but what we get is a system in which Canada is ranked 30th in health care performance.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

WHO's ranking of health care systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Not a particularly thoughtful answer when you consider that Canada has the second highest per capita health care costs in the world. Canadians are paying more than enough to create a first class health care system, but what we get is a system in which Canada is ranked 30th in health care performance.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

WHO's ranking of health care systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Several years ago I heard that the average 60 year old Swede is in as good shape as the average 30 year old Canadian. Until I hear something better I'll take that as a clue! :smile:
 

Angstrom

Hall of Fame Member
May 8, 2011
10,659
0
36
Several years ago I heard that the average 60 year old Swede is in as good shape as the average 30 year old Canadian. Until I hear something better I'll take that as a clue! :smile:

They don't do half cooked socialism like us.
Swede put allot of thought into there socialist system.
Something we fail at here in Canada.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Not a particularly thoughtful answer when you consider that Canada has the second highest per capita health care costs in the world. Canadians are paying more than enough to create a first class health care system, but what we get is a system in which Canada is ranked 30th in health care performance.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

WHO's ranking of health care systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I believe my answer to be extraordinarily thoughtful as the issue is put out in a simple form and perspective.

Bottom-line: Doctors, nurses, technicians, support staff et al. do not work for free, nor is the construction of the hospitals, placement of technology, cost of electricity or pharmaceuticals free either.

As far as the World Health Org is concerned, I'll pay more attention to that group when they actively attach an economic sustainability model to their ranking system...

If memory serves; Canada is one of 3 countries in the world that still prohibit the private sector from fully participating in healthcare... Factor that into the WHO rankings with an eye to 20 or 30 years down the road.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
I believe my answer to be extraordinarily thoughtful as the issue is put out in a simple form and perspective.

Bottom-line: Doctors, nurses, technicians, support staff et al. do not work for free, nor is the construction of the hospitals, placement of technology, cost of electricity or pharmaceuticals free either.

As far as the World Health Org is concerned, I'll pay more attention to that group when they actively attach an economic sustainability model to their ranking system...

If memory serves; Canada is one of 3 countries in the world that still prohibit the private sector from fully participating in healthcare... Factor that into the WHO rankings with an eye to 20 or 30 years down the road.

You appear to be engaging in a bit of a cop out. You claim that you have to pay for a good health service, but refuse to accept impartial evidence that health care spending in Canada is high and not particularly effective.

Why is is for example, that France, which is rated number 1 on the WHO list spends so much less than Canada for a much better system? For that matter why is it that Germany with a very high level of private health care service can offer a much better dollar for value service? And why is it that you continually overlook the disastrous level of health care provided in the United States, a country that has a huge level of private investment in health care?

The point is I really don't care whether Canada has a mostly public or mostly private health care system. What I want is one that is cost effective and delivers the best level of health care available for the dollars spent. Canada has the second highest level of health care spending in the world; to me that means Canada should have the second highest level of quality health care; not 30th.

Do you have any solutions other than the continual privatization the the existing public system that has been occurring for the last fifteen or twenty years and which has utterly failed to slow the increase in health care costs? Or are you stuck with the ideologically hidebound notion that the private sector always does everything more cheaply and efficiently than the public sector?
 

Angstrom

Hall of Fame Member
May 8, 2011
10,659
0
36
You appear to be engaging in a bit of a cop out. You claim that you have to pay for a good health service, but refuse to accept impartial evidence that health care spending in Canada is high and not particularly effective.

Why is is for example, that France, which is rated number 1 on the WHO list spends so much less than Canada for a much better system? For that matter why is it that Germany with a very high level of private health care service can offer a much better dollar for value service? And why is it that you continually overlook the disastrous level of health care provided in the United States, a country that has a huge level of private investment in health care?

The point is I really don't care whether Canada has a mostly public or mostly private health care system. What I want is one that is cost effective and delivers the best level of health care available for the dollars spent. Canada has the second highest level of health care spending in the world; to me that means Canada should have the second highest level of quality health care; not 30th.

Do you have any solutions other than the continual privatization the the existing public system that has been occurring for the last fifteen or twenty years and which has utterly failed to slow the increase in health care costs? Or are you stuck with the ideologically hidebound notion that the private sector always does everything more cheaply and efficiently than the public sector?


If all our population was packed in the size of half of Ontario, that could be helpful.
The USA may be suffering from the same problem

France and most of the high ranked country's are much smaller in size.
Our population is spread out makes it harder I think.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
You appear to be engaging in a bit of a cop out. You claim that you have to pay for a good health service, but refuse to accept impartial evidence that health care spending in Canada is high and not particularly effective.

Answer this Bar; Is healthcare "free" in Canada?

If not, where does the money come from, who pays?

As far as the WHO is concerned, they are in the same league as the UN in terms of their uselessness.

Why is is for example, that France, which is rated number 1 on the WHO list spends so much less than Canada for a much better system?

Why? It's because France allows a parallel private system to operate.

Check the wording on that to determine if it is France's central/provincial gvts that spend less as opposed to the total amount of money spent by the French.


The point is I really don't care whether Canada has a mostly public or mostly private health care system. What I want is one that is cost effective and delivers the best level of health care available for the dollars spent. Canada has the second highest level of health care spending in the world; to me that means Canada should have the second highest level of quality health care; not 30th.

Well, we know this for sure. Canada is throwing copious amounts of money at a system that is ineffective and useless. We also know that the rank and file believe that the solution is increase taxes and to flush more money down the toilet.


Do you have any solutions other than the continual privatization the the existing public system that has been occurring for the last fifteen or twenty years and which has utterly failed to slow the increase in health care costs? Or are you stuck with the ideologically hidebound notion that the private sector always does everything more cheaply and efficiently than the public sector?

Yep.. A parallel private system.

Kinda like the education system in Alberta. Every time that the ATA strikes, the province grants more licenses to Charters and Private schools.

We have a better overall system because of this.
 

GreenFish66

House Member
Apr 16, 2008
2,717
10
38
www.myspace.com
There have been many changes to the Health Care system .. There will be many more..
All we can do is hope and pray, that future experiences, will be more Positive, than the past...

Canadians Live longer than most others...
All Have Basic Coverage..
(Long wait times are in the Health Care Systems best interest.. If the problem is serious enough, a Dr.will see you immediately.(In most cases.Exception; If He/She just doesn't like you ):)
It's more the quality of Care/ The need for good practisioners/New Technology,.. that is lagging.....

There's definitely no problem with Suffering in Canada.. Canadian Health Care System is good at one thing ..

Easing the Pain and Suffering ...
------------------------------------

Hard to Smile in a Hospital...
Not a very pleasant environment...
Where Leaving is allways prefered (over staying ...)
-----------------------

Each Day to the Fullest...
------------------------
Get well soon; ...

All the best to You and Yours .Now..and Forever Positively Forward, into the Future..and For Ever More.Ehmen

All Bless
God Bless

Peace ...

_____________________

Always remember your Hospital Etiquette....Respect/Decency/um..Consideration..etc...

----------------------------------------------------

Never, ever say - " Hope to see you again soon " ..in a hospital ...

....................................................................

Well..
..Gotta go ..
GoodBye.
(For now)
----
The end...( of Rant/Thread )

... and the start, to many more, new beginnings .....

.......................

Tommorow..or maybe, the day after..Sometime very soon though, for sure....

............................................................................
 
Last edited:

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,756
11,580
113
Low Earth Orbit
It didn't click in 25 years ago when hospitals became malls and charities that things were goiing down hill fast?
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
Answer this Bar; Is healthcare "free" in Canada?

If not, where does the money come from, who pays?

As far as the WHO is concerned, they are in the same league as the UN in terms of their uselessness.



Why? It's because France allows a parallel private system to operate.

Check the wording on that to determine if it is France's central/provincial gvts that spend less as opposed to the total amount of money spent by the French.




Well, we know this for sure. Canada is throwing copious amounts of money at a system that is ineffective and useless. We also know that the rank and file believe that the solution is increase taxes and to flush more money down the toilet.




Yep.. A parallel private system.

Kinda like the education system in Alberta. Every time that the ATA strikes, the province grants more licenses to Charters and Private schools.

We have a better overall system because of this.

WHO is useless? I suppose so if you regard an organization that eliminated smallpox and greatly reduced the death rate from many other illnesses as useless. What other developments do you have on your useless list - vaccination; anesthetics, and the germ theory of disease?

You appear to be going out of your way to miss my point regarding health care expenditures; in fact sometimes I think you go out of your way to be deliberately obtuse. However, I will repeat it since you don't quite seem to understand my point about health care spending; which is that Canadians get very poor value for their health care dollar. I note that in all of your carping you do not have a single suggestion as to why this might be so or a single solution to the problem. I suggest you take a closer look at the French health care system as it appears that you are seeing what you want to see and not what is actually there; especially the fact that French doctors are much more highly regulated and that they are reimbursed at about one third of the rate in Canada and the US. It might be the vaunted private alternative you keep on advocating, but it is a very regulated private alternative, much more so than in Canada.
In fact I would gladly change the current health care structure in Canada for the one in France, complete with its restrictions on physicians' incomes.

Your comment about private schools and charter schools in Alberta is one of your usual non-sequiturs as this thread is not discussing Alberta's school system. But it does show that that your understanding of education in Alberta is quite limited. In the last few years there have been no increases in either type of school and as for charter schools it wouldn't matter anyway as so-called charter schools in Alberta are actually public schools. In addition, if you look at the fees charged by private schools it is small wonder they have better results. Almost any educational institution can do better if you pump in two to eight times the money of a public school and select only those students who are likely to succeed. But you already know this don't you? We had the same discussion on the thread dealing with the Saskatchewan teachers' strike. Guess you just forget everything I explained.

Finally, could you please show me the survey indicating that most Canadians think the solution to health care is to spend more money on the system? I seem to have missed the news coverage on that one.

If all our population was packed in the size of half of Ontario, that could be helpful.
The USA may be suffering from the same problem

France and most of the high ranked country's are much smaller in size.
Our population is spread out makes it harder I think.

You could be right about that. However, Canada is the most highly urbanized nation in the world. 80% of Canadians live in cities. So that may not be the real problem.

I suspect the problem may be more due to several factors. One of these is that Canada does not have a national health care system; it has ten health care systems (more than that if you consider the territories). As a result it is difficult to develop a national strategy on health care as each government has its own ideas as to what should be offered in health care. The duplication of health care bureaucracies also probably greatly increases the cost.

Another is the large number of private for profit firms offering health services. Unless these firms are exceedingly efficient there is no way that they can offer cheaper health care than a publicly owned system. Any business that is required to make a profit has to charge more for its services.

A third is the lack of a national pharmacare program. Drug costs in Canada are among the highest in the world, but there is no national plan to approach drug companies and buy drugs in bulk at much lower costs.

I expect that there are other factors pushing up health care costs in Canada. Perhaps someone else would care to comment?
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
1,312
0
36
Imo, an absense of financial accountability is a major reason why our public healthcare costs are spiralling out of control.

Dont get me wrong, i like the concepts of universal healthcare.

I just happen to like the concepts of affordability and accountabily. Iom, we need more of it. Not so much that it destroys the universal healthcare, but enough to make sure universal healthcare doesn't destroy itself.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
WHO is useless? I suppose so if you regard an organization that eliminated smallpox and greatly reduced the death rate from many other illnesses as useless. What other developments do you have on your useless list - vaccination; anesthetics, and the germ theory of disease?

Yes, I do.. Funny that you go on like the WHO invented vaccinations and anesthetics... In a way, the WHO did play a pivotal role in the vaccination department with their last role in causing a global panic about Swine Flu, a looming pandemic was the phrase that the WHO mistakenly believed.

Who knows, maybe they had invested heavily in Big Pharma stocks the year earlier that may have clouded their judgement a wee bit?


You appear to be going out of your way to miss my point regarding health care expenditures; in fact sometimes I think you go out of your way to be deliberately obtuse. However, I will repeat it since you don't quite seem to understand my point about health care spending; which is that Canadians get very poor value for their health care dollar.

What part of my comment that Canadians get uber-sh*tty value for their dollar confused you Bar?

I note that in all of your carping you do not have a single suggestion as to why this might be so or a single solution to the problem.

Confused again are ya?

Did I throw you off when I suggested that the parallel operation of public and private healthcare systems would be the ticket?

I suggest you take a closer look at the French health care system as it appears that you are seeing what you want to see and not what is actually there; especially the fact that French doctors are much more highly regulated and that they are reimbursed at about one third of the rate in Canada and the US. It might be the vaunted private alternative you keep on advocating, but it is a very regulated private alternative, much more so than in Canada.

Here's the deal with most public/private systems... Doc's maintain a private practice for which they charge whatever the market bears BUT they are obliged to accept a % of public patients for which they are compensated the gvt regulated amount.

Your fantasy that the doctors are paid 1/3 of Canadian physicians is a myth. Compounding this reality is the notion that Canadian doctors are artificially under-paid as it is the public sector that dictates a one-fee-fits-all environment... And herein lies the reason that I invoked the AB school system experience. The public school system in Canada (AB at least) compensates all teachers under the same formula that does not allow for exceptional educators to be compensated above the average while paying the below average teachers on par with the best ones.

The AB Charters and Private schools break that mold and hence why there is a better opportunity to attract the top educators to those systems.


In fact I would gladly change the current health care structure in Canada for the one in France, complete with its restrictions on physicians' incomes.

.. And that still leaves us with my original comment that you gotta pay to play.

Your comment about private schools and charter schools in Alberta is one of your usual non-sequiturs as this thread is not discussing Alberta's school system. But it does show that that your understanding of education in Alberta is quite limited. In the last few years there have been no increases in either type of school and as for charter schools it wouldn't matter anyway as so-called charter schools in Alberta are actually public schools.

See above. My understanding is just fine, thank you very much. Your conflict lies in the perception that one-size-fits-all and quality related issues are always the fault of some other factor other than the individual deliverers of the service.

As far as AB not providing any new licenses in recent memory coincidentally coincides with the lack of ATA job actions... Amazing how that works, eh?


In addition, if you look at the fees charged by private schools it is small wonder they have better results. Almost any educational institution can do better if you pump in two to eight times the money of a public school and select only those students who are likely to succeed. But you already know this don't you? We had the same discussion on the thread dealing with the Saskatchewan teachers' strike. Guess you just forget everything I explained.

I love the corner that you painted yourself into... First, it is the individual right of the family to disburse their money any way that they see fit, including paying fees for the kid's education... But somehow you equate this with the notion that only the brightest get to attend private schools as opposed to the ideal that these families want to invest directly into their kid's futures.


Finally, could you please show me the survey indicating that most Canadians think the solution to health care is to spend more money on the system? I seem to have missed the news coverage on that one.

Do you read the newspapers? Track the election rhetoric?

Really man, spare me...
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
Yes, I do.. Funny that you go on like the WHO invented vaccinations and anesthetics... In a way, the WHO did play a pivotal role in the vaccination department with their last role in causing a global panic about Swine Flu, a looming pandemic was the phrase that the WHO mistakenly believed.

I take that back about pretending to be obtuse. You are obtuse. Try reading my post again. I did not give WHO credit for inventing any vaccines I said that it used vaccines to eliminate problem diseases. Of course, given your stance I expect you will try to deny that obvious historical fact the way that you usually dismiss any fact that disagrees with your dogmatic position. Swine flu BTW has very little to do with the fact that without WHO's actions over the last six decades literally hundreds of millions of people would be dead. But apparently one error by any world organization places it on your blacklist forever. Too bad that your double standard does not apply to the private sector firms you are always praising.[/QUOTE]

What part of my comment that Canadians get uber-sh*tty value for their dollar confused you Bar?
Confused again are ya?

Sarah Palin north are ya? And without about as much sense as that woman usually makes. No I am not confused. Just in case you have noticed it has been my point all along that Canada gets very poor value for the money it spends; so thank you for accidentally agreeing with me. It was you who contradicted that statement the first time with this little comment: "No matter how you cut it, you gotta pay-to-play. You desire 1st rate healthcare services, be prepared to pay the dollars" Apparently you not only can't read my posts correctly you can't even remember your own.

So far as your educational comments are concerned I refuse to discuss them here other than you say that they indicate woeful ignorance of Alberta's educational system. I do note that you were unable to reply intelligently to any point I made. Simply asserting something over and over again does not make it correct. If you wish to post them in the appropriate thread I will attempt to reply to them provided you actually add anything new. Somehow, judging from most of your posts I doubt that will happen.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Imo, an absense of financial accountability is a major reason why our public healthcare costs are spiralling out of control.

Dont get me wrong, i like the concepts of universal healthcare.

I just happen to like the concepts of affordability and accountabily. Iom, we need more of it. Not so much that it destroys the universal healthcare, but enough to make sure universal healthcare doesn't destroy itself.

So, how do you do it?
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,337
113
Vancouver Island
So, how do you do it?

The milti billion dollar question.
I think we have to start with an agreed definition of universal health care. Does it mean that everyone is entitled to every possible medical procedure available regardless of weather they have contributed a single penny into healthcare? Or does it mean that every one is entitled to free basic care so that if you are in an accident you will get service in ER and a room in a hospice or simular if you are dying so no one is dying on the street but you must pay premiums for expensive tretment like transplants and cancer treatment?
Then we have to deal with the bureaucracy. There are far too many high paid administrators with too many different government agencies involved in healthcare and they are sucking most of the money out of the system. Along with this is deciding if health care is provincal or federal domain. It cannot continue to be both.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
I take that back about pretending to be obtuse. You are obtuse. Try reading my post again. I did not give WHO credit for inventing any vaccines I said that it used vaccines to eliminate problem diseases. Of course, given your stance I expect you will try to deny that obvious historical fact the way that you usually dismiss any fact that disagrees with your dogmatic position. Swine flu BTW has very little to do with the fact that without WHO's actions over the last six decades literally hundreds of millions of people would be dead. But apparently one error by any world organization places it on your blacklist forever. Too bad that your double standard does not apply to the private sector firms you are always praising.

Enough with your beating around the bush on this. Every time you can't provide a semblance of a rebuttal you deflect the discussion with someone being 'obtuse' or ya run off and pout by refusing to discuss (see below). That said, I will happily discuss the education topic in an appropriate venue, but understand that the parallels between healthcare and (formerly) the school system in AB had striking similarities.

My point in referring to the school system was to illustrate the reality that a parallel system isn't all doom 'n gloom.

In terms of WHO, they 'report' on the problems and 'analyze' situations and if you recall, their most recent fiasco of single-handedly fabricating a global panic regarding swine flu... Think back to that event and recall if any of the impending pandemic unraveled as WHO stated it would. All they were good for in that fiasco was creating a huge demand for vaccine... That's it.

Sarah Palin north are ya? And without about as much sense as that woman usually makes. No I am not confused. Just in case you have noticed it has been my point all along that Canada gets very poor value for the money it spends; so thank you for accidentally agreeing with me. It was you who contradicted that statement the first time with this little comment: "No matter how you cut it, you gotta pay-to-play. You desire 1st rate healthcare services, be prepared to pay the dollars" Apparently you not only can't read my posts correctly you can't even remember your own.


Learn to read between the lines already, no one is going to spoon-feed you the realities of this issue.

When you cut out all of the BS in the above statement, you are left with the same question... Are you prepared to pay for the level of service that you demand?... The critical element in that sentence is "the level of service that YOU demand". You want to flush more money down the toilet, that's fine by me, but don't go off wondering why you aren't getting value for your dollar.

Case in point, you were presumably under the impression that French doctors made a fraction of Canadian physicians and thereofre, this element had a reflection on that nation's quality ranking... You were wrong.

The French (among many European nations) maintain parallel public/private service providers. The gvt spends less because it gives the option for patients to out of pocket, while that same patient simultaneously pays taxes that support the public system.

So, there you have it... The French are willing to 'pay to play' and the results are reflected in the much vaunted WHO ranking.

So far as your educational comments are concerned I refuse to discuss them here other than you say that they indicate woeful ignorance of Alberta's educational system. I do note that you were unable to reply intelligently to any point I made. Simply asserting something over and over again does not make it correct. If you wish to post them in the appropriate thread I will attempt to reply to them provided you actually add anything new. Somehow, judging from most of your posts I doubt that will happen.


Your comments don't hold that much authority or sway considering you were passing yourself off as knowledgeable about European healthcare trends.... You're all choked-up because I took a run at your industry and you don't like any disagreement that isn't supportive of the system, the ATA has been that way since it's inception and the wholesale response to any dissenting opinion is that "they don't understand" or assuming a militant stance.

Those days are gone my friend. The ATA is about as relevant is the CUPW in the postal service.
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
1,694
3
38
Vancouver
No matter where you go on the planet, a highly skilled worker is going to cost pretty close to the same as here.

Interesting how you know that.

Universities get all the credit, but a good college will knock the socks off unemployment and getting things done
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,756
11,580
113
Low Earth Orbit
Interesting how you know that.

Universities get all the credit, but a good college will knock the socks off unemployment and getting things done
Skilled and educated are two complete different things.

Without both you are screwed.