Healthcare system disintegration

[petros]

Yup. We get smarter faster but also more brutal.

 

[Tonington]

In terms of WHO, they 'report' on the problems and 'analyze' situations and if you recall, their most recent fiasco of single-handedly fabricating a global panic regarding swine flu... Think back to that event and recall if any of the impending pandemic unraveled as WHO stated it would. All they were good for in that fiasco was creating a huge demand for vaccine... That's it.

The WHO didn't predict anything. Managing risk doesn't mean you know what will happen in the future.

There was a risk. When you or anyone else come up with a disease model that can screen pathogens and reliably predict the pathogenicity of a new influenza serotype well in advance of the actual disease spread, let us all know please.

 

[captain morgan]

The WHO didn't predict anything. Managing risk doesn't mean you know what will happen in the future.

BBC NEWS | Health | Swine flu: How serious a threat?
PROFESSOR NEIL FERGUSON, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION
Clearly we are on track for a pandemic in the coming months.


Meanwhile, the World Health Organization's flu chief says the global H1N1(swine flu) outbreak is still in its early stages and 2 billion infections over the course of the pandemic is "a reasonable ballpark to be looking at."

Read more: Dire Predictions For Swine Flu's Future - CBS News


Oops.... Care to restate your factoids?
​

 

[Tonington]

BBC NEWS | Health | Swine flu: How serious a threat?
PROFESSOR NEIL FERGUSON, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION
Clearly we are on track for a pandemic in the coming months.


Meanwhile, the World Health Organization's flu chief says the global H1N1(swine flu) outbreak is still in its early stages and 2 billion infections over the course of the pandemic is "a reasonable ballpark to be looking at."

Read more: Dire Predictions For Swine Flu's Future - CBS News


Oops.... Care to restate your factoids?
​

I'll restate the limited factoids from the links you provided:

PROFESSOR NEIL FERGUSON, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION

We might expect up to 30-40% of the population to become ill in the next six months if this truly turns into a pandemic

Professor Ferguson

Clearly we are on track for a pandemic in the coming months.

The good news is that we were all worried about so-called bird flu H5N1 which was a much more dangerous virus. Here, we are not in the same ball park.

But we can't at the moment answer the question is it comparable to 1918 Spanish flu which killed a lot of people - or is it much more like Hong Kong flu.

We are coming out of the normal time of year when we have flu circulating in the UK so we don't really know what size of epidemic there may be in the next couple of months.

It is almost certain that even if it does fade away in the next few weeks which it might we will get a sizable epidemic in the autumn.

We might expect up to 30-40% of the population to become ill in the next six months if this truly turns into a pandemic.

We could get substantial numbers infected in the next few weeks. If I was to be a betting man I would say it would be a slightly longer period of time just because we are heading into the summer months.
​

Hmmm, no mention of 2 billion infections being in the ball park...I do see caveats like might. No predictions though. He clearly said they really don't know. And how could they know? Since this is a media story, and not an official report from the WHO, your italicized quote seems sketchy. Up to 30-40% of the world is a top end of over 2 billion, but note there is no mention of a lower estimate. Ballparking is not grabbing the highest estimate...
And the link to CBS is broken.

Whomever said ball park of 2 billion, it wasn`t in this article. The place to search for WHO estimates or predictions, would be on the WHO website. You might give that a try.

Like I said, if anyone had a model that worked well enough to be certain, then it would be used, but we don't.

 

[captain morgan]

Meh... Two separate sources that contradict your claim.

Spin all you like, but WHO made predictions which were catastrophically wrong. Ferguson threw in his disclaimers but in the end, it was still akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater.

On that topic, how come you did not recognize the second quote from CBS news?

 

[Tonington]

You asserted plainly that the WHO stated the pandemic would unfold in some fashion. That is untrue, the quote I pulled from your link says they had no idea, and the rubbish BBC report gave only a figure for the worst case. The WHO doesn't predict how things will happen, they project spread of disease, and they use scenarios and current rate of infection to continually release reports on pandemics.

Your sources don't refute that at all. If anything, what you've provided is the basis for the media creating a panic.

 

[captain morgan]

I noticed that you retreated to the standard conspiracy theory in your uh, rebuttal...:

"And how could they know? Since this is a media story, and not an official report from the WHO, your italicized quote seems sketchy. "

Fact is, the comments were made by Ferguson and not refuted by the WHO wherein they suggest up to 30-40%... Suggestion, prediction or kinda-sorta-maybe-might-happen is all the same.

I should have known that you'd fall back on an argument that ignores the issue and focuses on semantics, etc.

 

[Tonington]

Fact is, the comments were made by Ferguson and not refuted by the WHO wherein they suggest up to 30-40%

How do you know they weren't refuted by the WHO? Have you checked their documents on their website yet?

Though at least now you admit this wasn't an official prediction by WHO, though I gather you didn't realize that.

 

[captain morgan]

How do you know they weren't refuted by the WHO? Have you checked their documents on their website yet?

Got a link?

Though at least now you admit this wasn't an official prediction by WHO, though I gather you didn't realize that.

Uhhh... Yeah.... I guess that he acted as a vigilante spokesman for 'em.

 

[Tonington]

Got a link?

For my question? You just linked to it with your quote.

Uhhh... Yeah.... I guess that he acted as a vigilante spokesman for 'em.

If you would read instead of fishing with google, you'd have noticed the intro to the article:

WHO says the virus, which has killed an estimated 150 people in Mexico, is showing a "sustained ability" to pass from human to human and is able to cause community-level outbreaks.
​

The UK's leading experts on flu give their views on what the future threat might be.

​

In fact, the WHO gave no prediction whatsoever for the number of deaths. The article asked experts what might happen, one of whom is not only affiliated with the WHO, but is also a professor... I'll let you jump off this merry-go-round last.

 

[captain morgan]

For my question? You just linked to it with your quote.

Correct.. And I requested that you provide a link to support your contention.

I am still waiting.

If you would read instead of fishing with google, you'd have noticed the intro to the article:

WHO says the virus, which has killed an estimated 150 people in Mexico, is showing a "sustained ability" to pass from human to human and is able to cause community-level outbreaks.
​

The UK's leading experts on flu give their views on what the future threat might be.

​

In fact, the WHO gave no prediction whatsoever for the number of deaths. The article asked experts what might happen, one of whom is not only affiliated with the WHO, but is also a professor... I'll let you jump off this merry-go-round last.

Deflecting the issue still does not address both links that I provided. By your own admission, WHO estimated (at the top end apparently) 30-40%. That is a form of prediction whether you personally approve or not.

You have still not dealt with the second link. I am assuming that you realized that the WHO provided predictions in that one as well.

 

[GreenFish66]

" Don't Panic!...Stay Calm !.. We seem to have a bit of a Global PANdemIC here..So we want you all, in an orderly fasion, to go to your Health practitioners , line up quietly, and get a shot / some Pharmaceuticals !.. Go home, Stay Calm, Get Some Rest.."

The WHO, as well as many others WHO knew . Blew The Swine Flu Issue..
Right from the get go..Outta Every Outlet..Flew Swine Flu Spew..Ah Chew..and chu..and U.

It was all.In the least... still a A Necessary TEST....

A Test of the The Global Health Preparedness/Co-Ordination/Response System/Teams...( or the I.G.H.P.C.R.S/T ).. I don't know? ..That's what I heard from a Mrs.Somebody, from Somewhere and such, about the Whole Health Care Fiasco,

..... Anyway.

Apparently "They" meet and do these Sorta Emergency " Tests " all the time ...Most just never Catch it.. I mean , Catch on to it .(.That it's just a Test/Drill ...I mean ..Most think it's real..)

Ah .You know ..For instance...Like when you Hear Sirens/Alarms go off.. It doesn't necessarily mean there's an Emergency...does it?...

Could be a Cat stuck up in a tree...
Or, a police Officer who just doesn't wanna wait for the light to change.
Maybe somebody ( Perhaps even the same Mrs.Somebody who told me about the I.G.H.P.C.R.S/T .......)..used too much hotwater in the shower ( hmmm..aaahhh ) causing the steam to set the fire Alarm off ...

... Who knows...So many possibilities..
Might be just a Practise Test.

All we can do .. Is learn from our(more so, others) mistakes and hope to learn from them ..
Be better prepared for Next time/Just in Case..
------

Oh ,Elder..
Very Interesting/Informative thread by the way.
It's becoming quite a popular site with the patients here.. hum.mm. I mean Members here..
Kinda Like a Hospital Waiting Room ...( sorry bd.jk.)


Long Live ..The " Health Care System Disintegration " thread !



Peace.

-----------------

 

[Bar Sinister]

Enough with your beating around the bush on this. Every time you can't provide a semblance of a rebuttal you deflect the discussion with someone being 'obtuse' or ya run off and pout by refusing to discuss (see below). That said, I will happily discuss the education topic in an appropriate venue, but understand that the parallels between healthcare and (formerly) the school system in AB had striking similarities.

My point in referring to the school system was to illustrate the reality that a parallel system isn't all doom 'n gloom.

In terms of WHO, they 'report' on the problems and 'analyze' situations and if you recall, their most recent fiasco of single-handedly fabricating a global panic regarding swine flu... Think back to that event and recall if any of the impending pandemic unraveled as WHO stated it would. All they were good for in that fiasco was creating a huge demand for vaccine... That's it.




Learn to read between the lines already, no one is going to spoon-feed you the realities of this issue.

When you cut out all of the BS in the above statement, you are left with the same question... Are you prepared to pay for the level of service that you demand?... The critical element in that sentence is "the level of service that YOU demand". You want to flush more money down the toilet, that's fine by me, but don't go off wondering why you aren't getting value for your dollar.

Case in point, you were presumably under the impression that French doctors made a fraction of Canadian physicians and thereofre, this element had a reflection on that nation's quality ranking... You were wrong.

The French (among many European nations) maintain parallel public/private service providers. The gvt spends less because it gives the option for patients to out of pocket, while that same patient simultaneously pays taxes that support the public system.

So, there you have it... The French are willing to 'pay to play' and the results are reflected in the much vaunted WHO ranking.




Your comments don't hold that much authority or sway considering you were passing yourself off as knowledgeable about European healthcare trends.... You're all choked-up because I took a run at your industry and you don't like any disagreement that isn't supportive of the system, the ATA has been that way since it's inception and the wholesale response to any dissenting opinion is that "they don't understand" or assuming a militant stance.

Those days are gone my friend. The ATA is about as relevant is the CUPW in the postal service.

Alright, I'll do something to make you happy. You want more free enterprise in the health care system? Then let's go all the way.

First, allow nurses and paramedics to take over many of the functions traditionally in the area of physicians, like prescription renewals and minor check-ups, and many of the mundane duties doctors now perform in hospitals.
Second, pay doctors by the hour, not the patient and then you'd get rid of assembly line medicine practiced by a lot of physicians in which they line up 40 or fifty patients in a waiting room, channel them off into cubicles, and then give them the requisite 15 minutes of consultation; while popping out to consult other patients at the same time.
Third, break the monopolistic hold of the Canadian Medical Association (and its provincial equivalents) on the certification of doctors and increase the number of physicians Canada-wide to bring in some real competition.
Fourth, eliminate the twenty year patent on pharmaceuticals that the Mulroney government gave to the large drug companies. Since the large drug companies have not kept their promise to increase research facilities in Canada that would only be fair. Perhaps lower it to ten years instead.
Five, extend the first three of the above to the dental profession and optometrists.

In other words turn the guild-like medical profession into a truly market system, and let the physicians howl.

BTW you did not prove that French doctors make the same amount as Canadian doctors. As usual you simply denied my point without offering any proof. Ditto for the school system - please include a link to all of the new private schools that have popped up in Alberta in the last 15 years. And don't bother with Charter Schools - they are actually public schools in disguise. The real Charter Schools - those that started from scratch - all failed due to a lack of public support.

That market oriented enough fer ya, Sarah?

Meh... Two separate sources that contradict your claim.

Spin all you like, but WHO made predictions which were catastrophically wrong. Ferguson threw in his disclaimers but in the end, it was still akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater.

On that topic, how come you did not recognize the second quote from CBS news?

Actually if you remember the situation it wasn't WHO that caused the panic. It was the media. There is nothing like t good panic story to draw viewers or readers and in Canada as elsewhere the media played the threat up to the max. WHO simply did what it was supposed to do - alert the world to the possibility of a worldwide flu epidemic. Can you imagine the reaction if WHO had sat back and said nothing and a real pandemic ensued without the least bit of warning?

The fact is that in the case of a possible epidemic it is better to err on the upside than to say nothing or to downplay a possible threat. If a pandemic had manifested itself on the scale of the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic the results worldwide would have been catastrophic, both in terms of human life and the economic cost to society.

 

[captain morgan]

First, allow nurses and paramedics to take over many of the functions traditionally in the area of physicians, like prescription renewals and minor check-ups, and many of the mundane duties doctors now perform in hospitals.

A great suggestion. The only setback I see is the potential for liability related issues, but I'm sure that can be dealt with.

Second, pay doctors by the hour, not the patient and then you'd get rid of assembly line medicine practiced by a lot of physicians in which they line up 40 or fifty patients in a waiting room, channel them off into cubicles, and then give them the requisite 15 minutes of consultation; while popping out to consult other patients at the same time.

Fair enough, but that may be more expensive in the end... As far as I know, family physicians make somewhere in the range of $25/patient and while some will say that a doc sees 'umpteen' patients per day, don't forget that out of that fee comes lease payments, staff expenses, supplies, etc.... Being a family doc is not a ticket to print money in any way.

Third, break the monopolistic hold of the Canadian Medical Association (and its provincial equivalents) on the certification of doctors and increase the number of physicians Canada-wide to bring in some real competition.

The big criticism I have with the CMA relates to the certification process of foreign docs that seek to immigrate to Canada. That said, as far as the monopoly is concerned, if you want recognized physicians, have a greater through-put at the university level. If what you seek is to have holistic practices recognized and paid for from the public purse, then apply political pressure at the provincial level.

As it stands, alternative options exist, but "you gotta pay to play", so the option is entirely yours.

Fourth, eliminate the twenty year patent on pharmaceuticals that the Mulroney government gave to the large drug companies. Since the large drug companies have not kept their promise to increase research facilities in Canada that would only be fair. Perhaps lower it to ten years instead.

I'm on the fence on this, but suffice to say, the cost of developing new drugs is extremely high and one of the reasons has to do with the rigorous testing by the FDA (Cdn equivalent). That is certainly an absolute requirement, but if you eliminate the profit potential for the mfgrs, then don't expect anyone to get into that game - hence, no new breakthroughs.

Five, extend the first three of the above to the dental profession and optometrists.

I don't know where this came from, but if you want to seek discount services in dental/optometry, then so be it. Right now, you can get very inexpensive dental work done in Mexico, but you take certain chances.

BTW you did not prove that French doctors make the same amount as Canadian doctors. As usual you simply denied my point without offering any proof. Ditto for the school system - please include a link to all of the new private schools that have popped up in Alberta in the last 15 years. And don't bother with Charter Schools - they are actually public schools in disguise. The real Charter Schools - those that started from scratch - all failed due to a lack of public support.

Look up the French system and experience yourself.

As for the school system, my comments are based on the observations that we all have seen over the last 15 years so spare me the nonsense about links and references. You are welcome to pretend all you like that the rise in numbers of Charter/Private schools doesn't exist, nor is it a coincidence that more licenses are granted in and around the time of ATA job actions.

That market oriented enough fer ya, Sarah?

Ya see, you had your panties all in a twist that you spelled Captain Morgan wrong.

Actually if you remember the situation it wasn't WHO that caused the panic. It was the media. There is nothing like t good panic story to draw viewers or readers and in Canada as elsewhere the media played the threat up to the max. WHO simply did what it was supposed to do - alert the world to the possibility of a worldwide flu epidemic. Can you imagine the reaction if WHO had sat back and said nothing and a real pandemic ensued without the least bit of warning?

The media didn't make the press releases for WHO and it is no secret that the media are giant a$$holes when it comes to selling a story... The problem is that WHO released their opinion and it was speculative at best... The pandemic that never was.

The fact is that in the case of a possible epidemic it is better to err on the upside than to say nothing or to downplay a possible threat. If a pandemic had manifested itself on the scale of the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic the results worldwide would have been catastrophic, both in terms of human life and the economic cost to society.

I suppose that every flu season may represent a possible epidemic and there is the chance that a fire may break out in any theater at any given time too.

 

[GreenFish66]

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/87471-swine-h1n1-flu-flu-vaccines.html

Bar Sinsister - Glad to hear some possible solutions..

However.

It was A leading W.H.O lady that first drew my attention to the many Discrepancies/ Conficting Facts ..surrounding the Swine Flu/H1N1 Fiasco..It was when she used " PANdemIC " then soon after , Said " Not to PANIC " in the same speech..Followed after that by just a flurry of B.S. Not only from her, but from almost every trusted health source.Even supposed " creditable " sources.

There were a few Practitioners that came out to voice concerns over how the Swine Flu "PANDEMIC" was being handled by Various Health Organizations..Most were quickly silenced .
( Wonder what ever happened to them ?)

Many of us followed the story Very closely( including health workers )...Many saw a Different/Darker side of The Global Health Care System...($$$$$$$$).A side that few wish to ever See or Hear about, again.

Best to put the Whole Swine Flu/H1N1 Fiasco to rest .( For now)

Good thing it was just a Scare/Test/Mistake...

Let's keep working on solutions with the Prefered Premise/Hopeful Naivety(?) , that Good Health/A Good Health Care System, Matters More, than Making $$$$$$$..

Live and Learn/Live and Let Die/Live Long and Prosper.
( Forgive Never Forget ...)

 

[Bar Sinister]

I don't know where this came from, but if you want to seek discount services in dental/optometry, then so be it. Right now, you can get very inexpensive dental work done in Mexico, but you take certain chances.


Look up the French system and experience yourself.

As for the school system, my comments are based on the observations that we all have seen over the last 15 years so spare me the nonsense about links and references. You are welcome to pretend all you like that the rise in numbers of Charter/Private schools doesn't exist, nor is it a coincidence that more licenses are granted in and around the time of ATA job actions.

I suppose that every flu season may represent a possible epidemic and there is the chance that a fire may break out in any theater at any given time too.

I had no idea plane flights to Mexico for dental work were free. But now that you have pointed it out I am sure many Canadians with dental and eye problems will take advantage of the opportunity.

No stats on French doctors or the Alberta school system to support you point of view.? I didn't expect any; primarily because you can't post what does not exist.

And as usual you manage a complete non-sequitur. There are no parallels between a hypothetical theatre fire and a disease pandemic.

Nice to see that you did agree with a majority of my points regarding real reform in the health care system. Perhaps there is hope for you after all.

 

[Angstrom]

What if Healthcare was privatized, but health insurance government controlled?

 

[Nuggler]

A really messed up childhood friend of mine breaks his hand every second weekend in a bar fight, and often needs medical help. Should You and I be paying for that? Thats one of the flaws in our system.

We need to be responsible of our own health.
That encourages you to take good care of yourself,
and not go every time you stub your toe, or have a little cough

Perhaps one day, someone will give him a really good, accurate, kick in the nuts, resulting in a loss of testosterone, resulting in a reduction of aggression, resulting in no more broken hands, and a general reduction in ER costs to the nation.

Simple problem, simple solution. Dr. Nugg always here for you.

 

[cranky]

the whole concept of universal healthcare gets tarnished and tainted when anything pain related, life threatening, or acute does not get treated. If someone has a broken hand, we need to fix it if we can,

 

[taxslave]

What if Healthcare was privatized, but health insurance government controlled?

Far too simple. That has peen one of the possible fixes but the left does not like it. Actually that is close to what we have now since most doctors are self employed and pay all their office expenses out of the fees paid. Where we run into difficulties is when the problems require expensive treatment like transplants or drugs. Here the government health care industry has a lock on service and the costs are out of control. ER is run like a walk in clinic which is neither cost effective or sanitary.
I think we will eventually move to a two tiered system of some kind when enough people realize that the current system is not sustainable. Everyone will be entitled to free basic care but after that what you get will depend to a certain extent on the amount of premiums you pay for a bundle of services much like life insurance. To a certain extent we even have that now with some union health plans. For a larger monthly fee you can get a private room and all sorts of extras.