Healthcare system disintegration

[Cliffy]

I notice that nobody seems to mention that the public system is not free. People pay monthly premiums and most taxes on alcohol and tobacco end up in the medical system, or at least, that is what we are told those exorbitant taxes are for. There are a lot of ways to cut costs, not the least of which is "There are far too many high paid administrators sucking cash out of the system." The absurd cost of pharmaceutical drugs is another. Every time you need to get your prescription renewed, you have to book a doctor appointment (at least once a year for most). The system has been set up in such a way that doctors milk it for all its worth. And of course, all the people who abuse the system with silly stuff like colds, minor aches and pains and general hypochondria. From what I've seen since Gordo's revamp, the system was set up to fail so that we will have to go to a US type system. Then we will all pay through the nose.

 

[captain morgan]

Sorry - you appear to have missed my point. I quite agree that health care spending in Canada is more than high enough, however, if you can find me a single example of where a private company has been able to provide medical services more cheaply and effectively than a public facility I will be very surprised.

Any private MRI facility

Also I was referring to the disastrous "reforms" instituted in Alberta which have resulted in soaring health care costs. This consisted of turning over numerous public health services to private for-profit corporations. This was done in the name of cost cutting and efficiency, but has achieved neither goal.

What reforms are these (with respect to 'supporting' private facilities)?

Instead health care costs have continued to climb as the government pours cash into the pockets of privately owned health care providers. It has made the owners of many medical corporations very wealthy without giving much value for the money spent.

Like who?

Further, this comparison requires that we have an accounting knowledge of what the public system 'charges' for the same procedures.
*caveat: ALL costs must be included - you will be very surprised with what you find out.

I fail to see why first class health services cannot be provided to Canadian citizens. If Sweden, France, Britain, and other nations can provide high tech medicine then so should Canada, especially as Canada spends much more per capita than those nations.

No matter how you cut it, you gotta pay-to-play.

You desire 1st rate healthcare services, be prepared to pay the dollars.

I notice that nobody seems to mention that the public system is not free. People pay monthly premiums and most taxes on alcohol and tobacco end up in the medical system, or at least, that is what we are told those exorbitant taxes are for. There are a lot of ways to cut costs, not the least of which is "There are far too many high paid administrators sucking cash out of the system." The absurd cost of pharmaceutical drugs is another. Every time you need to get your prescription renewed, you have to book a doctor appointment (at least once a year for most). The system has been set up in such a way that doctors milk it for all its worth. And of course, all the people who abuse the system with silly stuff like colds, minor aches and pains and general hypochondria. From what I've seen since Gordo's revamp, the system was set up to fail so that we will have to go to a US type system. Then we will all pay through the nose.

I'd give this post 100 thumbs-up if I could Cliffy... Great insight and great post.

 

[Omicron]

:canada: Please do not condemn me but I have evinced little interest in deep politics for it is not my natural bent. Of course I know the basics but I do not follow the details as you do so i do not have your amassed knowledge or comprehension.

I had to go into hospital for 4 days and though I will not discuss it here (for now) in detail I need to know who, what and how this HealthCare system crash has come about through the policies of government. We have had several hospital closures in the Lower Mainland which has had extreme effect on the increasing population and decreasing facilities for healthcare.

What I ask from you: in the political sense who, what party, politicians, government bodies, are responsible for the hospital, clinic and healthcare facility closures? I do not have this info at my fingertips and am recovering from serious illness.

8O Can anyone explain it to me how/why this hospital care nightmare has occurred with naming of names, parties, policies and places to post or mail the very long report ,on my hospital stay, that I will write when energy has returned? I would really appreciate your expertise and assistance.

I just was released from hospital, at my demand, yesterday June 1, 2011as my life was no longer in danger from the health issues I had arrived with but my mental, emotional and physical health were being actively threatened by the conditions, policies, lack of nutritive foods, functioning technology, demented nurses, bathing facilities and ability to speak with a doctor.

I do not blame the staff (wholly) because they are caught between the system and the ailing public. However, I need to speak about this and I want Ottawa, our premier and the parties responsible to receive this info too. Though no-one may read it or care I just have to write to them about it and try.

Thank you in advance.

Well, if you want to look at it the hard way, it's because it was en-gutted by those whom Harper takes one to know one.

http://tunes.digitalock.com/The_Corries_Scotland_the_Brave.mp3 <-- I was listening to this while I was typing.

http://tunes.digitalock.com/inthehillsofshilo.mp3 <-- click to play the music I am listening to while writing this post

Just in case people didn't know, the balance of power in this parliamentay system is not based upon traditional conservatism.

Pretend you're a person with a grudge.

Harper got ejected from the Liberal party as a kid and he took it personally.

He is going to **** this country just to make a point.

Then he's going to get old and die, and Saint Peter is going to ask him if he got laid any better that he would have had he done everything right, or does he feel himself worthy of another ride around?

A nation just gave itself up unto selfishness, and the hypocrite used bible people to get there.

Your ancestors moved here to get away from Lucifer crap: http://tunes.digitalock.com/flowerofscotlandcorries.mp3

 

[Angstrom]

The idea of free healthcare for everyone is very noble,
but its so deeply flawed, it will be our biggest
drag on our way to bankruptcy by 2050.

 

[cranky]

The idea of free healthcare for everyone is very noble,
but its so deeply flawed, it will be our biggest
drag on our way to bankruptcy by 2050.

I agree. To put it in perspective, healthcare in Alberta is costing all of the provincial income tax collected. Ofcourse, that is only a numbers comparison, not how the money actually flows.

 

[Unforgiven]

It's that retail mindset we have rocking today. While it's easy to blame this government or that one, the old one the new one the feds the province, really it's our own fault. You may be a bit surprised to hear that. But who elected politicians that say they are going to raise taxes? It isn't free health care. What you experienced is health care without all the fat. Those old nurses and doctors that cost alot of money and know that it takes time and resources to make someone well again.

So we get what we get but we get it for a pretty good price. Sadly that too is faltering as all that good stuff is breaking down because lab techs and specialist don't know how to use it like those seasoned old pros that either left for the US or retired due to cut backs. Closing all the hospitals is, you understand, a good move to cut funding to hospitals and save the poor abused taxpayer some of their well earned money. That's very important you know.

I would also like to point out that if you go to... let's say Sick Kids Hospital and ask the parents of those kids suffering and waiting for procedures, if they are happy with their tax breaks they got because some hospital in northern where ever got closed they just get all grumpy for some reason. Fickle I guess.

Canadians, such as we are, will put up with a lot of crap. Hell we'll stand in line for a check out at a Wal Mart.
We don't mind putting up with substandard health care because we know it's free and some times free sh!t isn't as good as stuff you have to pay for but at least it's free sh!t right?

 

[taxslave]

Sorry - you appear to have missed my point. I quite agree that health care spending in Canada is more than high enough, however, if you can find me a single example of where a private company has been able to provide medical services more cheaply and effectively than a public facility I will be very surprised. Also I was referring to the disastrous "reforms" instituted in Alberta which have resulted in soaring health care costs. This consisted of turning over numerous public health services to private for-profit corporations. This was done in the name of cost cutting and efficiency, but has achieved neither goal. Instead health care costs have continued to climb as the government pours cash into the pockets of privately owned health care providers. It has made the owners of many medical corporations very wealthy without giving much value for the money spent.

If BC is following the Alberta model (and considering the government it now has I suspect that is the case) you are probably right about the high administration costs. The Alberta government under Ralph Klein handed out dozens of high paying jobs on regional health boards to friends of the government. I suspect also, that BC has probably adopted the Alberta practice of privatizing public medical services in the name of efficiency and cost cutting without achieving either.

I fail to see why first class health services cannot be provided to Canadian citizens. If Sweden, France, Britain, and other nations can provide high tech medicine then so should Canada, especially as Canada spends much more per capita than those nations.

You may be right about the cost of dealing with retirees coming from out of province. Do you have any data on those numbers? I suspect that actual numbers might be hard to find. I also suspect that there is nothing anyone can do about it short of secession.

There are several private surgeries in Vancouver that provide timely service. But it is difficult to compare costs because our hospitals work on block funding instead of fee for service. The last I heard they had no real idea of the cost of any given operation because no one had ever bothered to add up the items involved.
There are lots of union rules that add to health care. I am including rules made by the doctors society in this as that is essentially a union.
Just a short list: Mid wives and Naturopaths do not get hospital privileges in Canada but they do in most of Europe. Many tests such as MRI and CAT are not available at night or weekends except in emergencies so expensive equipment sits idle while there is a waiting list. In an emergency staff are called in on OT. Nurses are not permitted to perform simple diagnoses and treatments. As a first aid attendant I can do more on the jobsite than a nurse can in ER without consulting a doctor. If you get to ER on your own steam but cannot get from your vehicle to the door the staff does not come rushing out to get you like in the movies but simply calls BCAS to send a car to get you because of union rules. In the rural ambulance station where I once worked we could not change the light bulb over the bay door but had to call for a service tech to come out from town(1hr each way) to change it.
I could probably write a dozen pages on stupid cost adding rules I have run into in health care if I sat down and thought about it.

Elder: unless I missed it no one pointed out that your complaint should go to the Fraser Health Authority. Send a copy with anything you have to back it up to the media as well.

 

[petros]

We pretty much need to burn down our hospitals to clean out the super bugs and tell people who stub their toes or have the sniffles they are all going to die and should go home to do so.

It's about $800 to get that stubbed toe x-rayed at ER.

I'd rather put that towards their coffin as there is no cure for a stubbed toe.

 

[Angstrom]

We pretty much need to burn down our hospitals to clean out the super bugs and tell people who stub their toes or have the sniffles they are all going to die and should go home to do so.

It's about $800 to get that stubbed toe x-rayed at ER.

I'd rather put that towards their coffin as there is no cure for a stubbed toe.

A really messed up childhood friend of mine breaks his hand every second weekend in a bar fight, and often needs medical help. Should You and I be paying for that? Thats one of the flaws in our system.

We need to be responsible of our own health.
That encourages you to take good care of yourself,
and not go every time you stub your toe, or have a little cough

 

[petros]

I'd like to see rebates for those who live healthy lifestyles and bonuses for those who improve their health.

$10 a kg for every kg lost and kept off over two years.

Give Drs bonuses for patients who have been encouraged to improve their health with diet and excerise rather than pills.

If you do high risk activities there should be a small yearly fee for extra insurance.

I don't want to have to pay extra to have a waterski pulled out of someone's ass.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Bull. Private medical care is what is saving our system from complete breakdown. There is more than enough money spent in BC on healthcare but it is not spent wisely. There are far too many high paid administrators sucking cash out of the system. COuple that with the amount of people that come to BC to retire but have not paid a single dime into our healthcare yet get full use of the facilities and bring expensive health problems with them and the system will collapse. We can afford public health care along the lines of what we had when it was first set up. There was little technology, no transplants and not much cancer treatment. We will have to return to that and if you want more you are going to have to pay for it.

Here's a bit of perspective. I'm in Saskatchewan. I know several Nurses and others in the
Health Care Field, and a few more try'n to get into the Nursing Program. We're currently
experiencing a Nursing shortage here (but then, who isn't, eh?), and the system is set up
to not pump out the number of Nurses required to fill the gap.

The Nursing Program in Saskatchewan, in days gone by, use to be a two year program,
but now it's a four year program. Two of the four years are (...wait for it...) Administration.
Fresh Nurses pop out'a that system with double the student loans.... in double the time,
and not a whole lot more knowledge of Nursing as a profession, if any at all. That means
we can only produce half the nurses in the same time frame that we could have a few
years back.

How many of those want to waste 1/2 their education just being a Nurse? They're starting
out two years behind in their wages, with double the amount of loans to repay. No wonder
the Administration end of things has become so top heavy, & will become more so....

I know a young lady with a grade point average of 90%, who has been on the waiting list to get
into the Nursing Program for over a year now (paying the semi-annual fee's to stay on that list),
and the next opening into that program is in the fall of 2013. She has explored postings through
out North America for a spot in a Nursing Program....and it's not a whole lot better elsewhere to
get into the program. Every application to every school to get onto their lists is a $30-$100 fee
paid annually (or semi-annually) to get onto & stay on lists for enrolment to each school, in the
event that a spot comes open.

I notice that nobody seems to mention that the public system is not free. People pay monthly premiums and most taxes on alcohol and tobacco end up in the medical system, or at least, that is what we are told those exorbitant taxes are for. There are a lot of ways to cut costs, not the least of which is "There are far too many high paid administrators sucking cash out of the system." The absurd cost of pharmaceutical drugs is another. Every time you need to get your prescription renewed, you have to book a doctor appointment (at least once a year for most). The system has been set up in such a way that doctors milk it for all its worth. And of course, all the people who abuse the system with silly stuff like colds, minor aches and pains and general hypochondria. From what I've seen since Gordo's revamp, the system was set up to fail so that we will have to go to a US type system. Then we will all pay through the nose.

I know someone who worked in a very-very-very busy Doctors office over by Petro's place.
The Doctors could bill out something like $62 or $64 per patient per visit. These Doctors
(a husband & wife team) would book 30 appointments per hour (each). That's a total of two
minutes per patient (including the time to get from room to room, etc...). They'd also squeeze
in the "walk in's" on top of that. That's about $15,000 per Doctor, per 8hr shift. What kind of
medical care do you think they're providing?

 

[Omicron]

The idea of free healthcare for everyone is very noble,
but its so deeply flawed, it will be our biggest
drag on our way to bankruptcy by 2050.

You're twisted. What the heck do you think civilization is for anyway?

Lemme guess, after telling people they must die of painful diseases we know how to cure, you're going to say that women who got accidentally pregnant must birth brain-damaged kids because the mother was malnourished during pregnancy, producing violent little brats unable to do anything except be criminals, in order to populate the binge on prison building.

 

[petros]

I know someone who worked in a very-very-very busy Doctors office over by Petro's place.
The Doctors could bill out something like $62 or $64 per patient per visit. These Doctors
(a husband & wife team) would book 30 appointments per hour (each). That's a total of two
minutes per patient (including the time to get from room to room, etc...). They'd also squeeze
in the "walk in's" on top of that. That's about $15,000 per Doctor, per 8hr shift. What kind of
medical care do you think they're providing?

Kalpana and Rajni? They have another clinic on Park St. Who do you know who worked there? Lori?

 

[gerryh]

You're twisted. What the heck do you think civilization is for anyway?

Lemme guess, after telling people they must die of painful diseases we know how to cure, you're going to say that women who got accidentally pregnant must birth brain-damaged kids because the mother was malnourished during pregnancy, producing violent little brats unable to do anything except be criminals, in order to populate the binge on prison building.

You're calling someone else twisted and then post this????? ROFLMFAO, rich, oh so rich.

 

[Omicron]

How many of those want to waste 1/2 their education just being a Nurse? They're starting
out two years behind in their wages, with double the amount of loans to repay. No wonder
the Administration end of things has become so top heavy, & will become more so....

Ugh... so nursing in Saskatchewan got taken over by Legalistic-MBA-puppets-of-Lucifer, requiring the nurses to learn as much about "administering" as doing actual nursing.

Administering *what*?!? They're nurses for crying out-loud. What are they supposed to do? Fill out a form detailing incidentals after having given a patient a bed bath, spending half an hour filing it into an Excel spread-sheet the fact that the patient had a pimple on his butt while another patient down the hall is screaming for care?

I know a young lady with a grade point average of 90%, who has been on the waiting list to get
into the Nursing Program for over a year now (paying the semi-annual fee's to stay on that list),
and the next opening into that program is in the fall of 2013. She has explored postings through
out North America for a spot in a Nursing Program....and it's not a whole lot better elsewhere to
get into the program. Every application to every school to get onto their lists is a $30-$100 fee
paid annually (or semi-annually) to get onto & stay on lists for enrolment to each school, in the
event that a spot comes open.

That's weird.

Are "they" trying to *force* a flow of nurses from the Philippines to here?

I know someone who worked in a very-very-very busy Doctors office over by Petro's place.
The Doctors could bill out something like $62 or $64 per patient per visit. These Doctors
(a husband & wife team) would book 30 appointments per hour (each). That's a total of two
minutes per patient (including the time to get from room to room, etc...). They'd also squeeze
in the "walk in's" on top of that. That's about $15,000 per Doctor, per 8hr shift. What kind of
medical care do you think they're providing?

Right, a billing clinic.

Those are operated by people who got into medicine strictly for the money, and think they are making up for the time lost not being ditch-diggers by plowing through as much billing per hour as they can.

You're calling someone else twisted and then post this????? ROFLMFAO, rich, oh so rich.

But you didn't say why you are ROFLMFAO.

 

[Bar Sinister]

You desire 1st rate healthcare services, be prepared to pay the dollars.

I don't have the lightest problem with paying the dollars. Can you tell me when this first rate health care system is going to materialize?

 

[cranky]

I don't have the lightest problem with paying the dollars. Can you tell me when this first rate health care system is going to materialize?

Only after everyone involved in healthcare believes they have first rate salaries, and there is still money left over.

 

[Bar Sinister]

In the rural ambulance station where I once worked we could not change the light bulb over the bay door but had to call for a service tech to come out from town(1hr each way) to change it.
I could probably write a dozen pages on stupid cost adding rules I have run into in health care if I sat down and thought about it.

Ah yes, the same rules existed in the educational system as well. I was supposed to submit a request to central services to get a map hung. I got around such rules by ignoring them and doing the work myself.

 

[JLM]

Only after everyone involved in healthcare believes they have first rate salaries, and there is still money left over.

The problem with greed is you NEVER have enough money.

 

[Omicron]

The problem with greed is you NEVER have enough money.

*groan*...

I had a couple good years. Because I have a clear perspective on what standard of living I want, and because I had achieved that, I bonused the surpluses to the staff.

Then times got tough, and when I needed help the most, they bailed.

Who was being greedy?

Hmm... why am I bothering you with this.

I think the point is, not everyone is greedy, but if I had been, it would have been easier to survive the bad years.