British MP banned from entering Canada
- Thread starter earth_as_one
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That's very diligent of you. Now, if you would subject your anti-Israel propaganda to the same scrutiny, people might tone down their laughter at your claims of objectivity.
How about classifying a police commander and assistant to the head of a military organization as children? Does International Humanitarian law support that? What about including people you yourself executed in a list of civilian casualties? Does International Humanitarian law support that?
Those seem to me like lies.
14 fatalities were members of Fatah whom Hamas executed during the fighting.
Tawfiq Ja'abari, the commander of the Hamas police, and Mohammed Shakshak, a personal assistant to the head of Hamas' military wing, Ahmed Ja'abari, are both described as dead children on the Palestinian list.
IDF: 600 Hamas men, 309 civilians died in Gaza offensive - Haaretz - Israel News
Objectivity is important in many areas. Hateing Israel however requires only the common decency and good taste of the normal well adjusted human. It would be well for Canada to elect stirling individuals like Mr Galloway rather than the quizzling zionist sucking scum bags we've been saddled with. Zionism is the bane of humanity.
Commment #5
It looks possible that names are being mixed up. For example:
Tawfiq Ja'abari could be a child with a name similar to the police chief...
I'm not going to verify every name on the list looking for errors. I don't have the patience or the resources.
Its sort of beside the point anyway. Israel claims Hamas is lying because they define who is and isn't a militant by a "unique to Israel" definition. Hamas's definition is the same or similar to IHL. Likely errors exist on the list but that still doesn't change the fact that Israel's definition of who is and isn't a militant is recognized only by Israel. For Hamas and the rest of the world, you have to be armed and involved in the fighting to be a militant.
Therefore neither side is lying by their definition.
But if Israel is free to make up their own definition of who is and isn't a militant, then why stop at labeling unarmed university professors, judges, secretaries and armed police officers as militants????
Why not go for a 100% militant kill ratio by simply defining all Palestinians as militants including women, children and babies? I'm sure that Israeli apologists (who obviously don't think very hard about Israeli claims) would sleep much better at night as a result knowing that Israel only kills militants (including baby militants). Of course Israeli apologists would have to put their brains in neutral, but that doesn't seem to be an obstacle for many people here.
I've posted images here of children with their faces melted off by US supplied and IDF delivered WP chemical weapons dropped on areas densely populated with civilians in violation of international law. Yet, I've never seen a single Israeli apologist make a comment regarding the children who were injured or killed as a result. Not a single one of you has condemned Israel or the US. I've posted information regarding people picking through garbage to feed their families and Palestinian children suffering disease and malnutrition as a result of Israel's illegal humanitarian food and medical aid blockade. Not a single Israeli apologists has condemned this illegal collective punishment which violates international law.
Its also against international law to build colonies for your own citizens on land taken by conquest. Its a form of ethnic cleansing. Nearly half a million Israelis live on land illegally annexed by Israel inviolation of international law. Yet I've not heard a peep regarding this war crime either.
I think its pretty safe to say I am dealing with a pretty cold, callous and heartless group of people here who would probable defend any war crimes or crime against humanity committed by Israel.
I'm not your conscience, but I'm curious how seemingly decent human beings can reconcile your support for obvious war crimes and crimes against humanity with your sense of morality.
I sleep well at night because I accept international laws regarding what is and isn't a war crime and a crime against humanity and apply that equally to both sides. In my viewpoint both sides are guilty of war crimes. I doubt any Israeli apoligists here would make the same statement. As far as crimes against humanity, Israel is unique. Not only have they committed many crimes against humanity, they've been doing it for over 60 years, been condemned repeatedly by the UN and the UNSC .... and gotten away with it. Correction, they continue to get away with it, all with the "unshakable" support of politicians like Stephen Harper and many people here.
I am disturbed by the war crimes and crimes against humanity, but I feel comforted by the fact that I don't suporting them and speak out against them. I am also disturbed by the complicity of so many people here who support using chemical weapons against children, using children as human shields and collectively punishing 1.5 million people with disease and malnutrition. Sleep well... I know I wouldn't be able to if I were in your shoes.
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''the quizzling zionist sucking scum bags we've been saddled with. Zionism is the bane of humanity. ''
And it's a socialist regime:
ISRAEL: A SOCIALIST SPARTA
And it's a socialist regime:
ISRAEL: A SOCIALIST SPARTA
Or, it could be the police chief. Has anyone tried calling him lately?
You don't need to. Israeli burocats have alrady done it for you.
Riiiight. So, you respect and admire Hamas' honesty because no one has been able to demonstrate a Hamas lie. Then, when we demonstrate a Hamas lie, it's beside the point. Got it. Objectivity. :lol:
:?: I'm surprised you would walk right into that one. You better apply some of those research skills you use to bend over backwards coming up with explanations of how Hamas fighters were filmed using ambulances other than that Hamas fighters were using ambulances. Took all of 10 seconds to blow that one away:
Hamas terror: every Jewish child now a target | The Australian
HAMAS leader Mahmoud Zahar has warned that Jewish children are now legitimate targets, in a bloodcurdling precursor to tanks rolling into the Islamic militant stronghold of Khan Younis yesterday.
Looks like you'll have to edit that to just "the rest of the world". :lol:
Mahmoud Zahar...isn't he the one that fled Gaza in an ambulance?
Actually, we've been couselling that Palestinians to refrain from provoking Israel for exactly the reason of avoiding dead children and other innocents. It's those who glorify the "freedom fighters" that need to think about the consequences of their quest for glory.
Actually, there have numerous peeps, too many to count, explaining to you the difference between conquered land and abondoned land. Jordon didn't want the West Bank back, and Egypt didn't want Gaza. That makes it disputed territory at best, abandoned territory most fairly, and certainly not occupied territory.
Israel took their citizens out of Gaza. Gazans could have built a nation, instead they built a terrorist missile launching zone. That's where the blame lies. How can you ignore NINE YEARS of rockets being fired at Israeli civilians, then cry about the dead children in Gaza as a war crime, then claim to be objective? Where are all your posts of dead and wounded Israelis in southern Israel, who were killed or maimed by Hamas rockets? Lost 'em?
Yeah, you good, we bad. I understand. :roll:
The police chief is a good example of my point. Israeli bureaucrats claim Hamas listed the police chief as a child and then they use the wrong name on their list indicating confusion.
According to Israel, the police chief's name is Tawfiq Ja'abari. Israel claims Hamas is lying because they list someone with that name as a child.
The Police Chief's name according to Hamas is Tawfiq Jabbre and Ismael Ja’abari is a local security chief.
I'd say its possible that Tawfiq Ja'abari is a child seeing as that person may not be the police chief.
That's just one name. There are over a thousand names on that list. Are you saying that bureaucrats are never wrong or that just Israeli bureaucrats are never wrong. Its been my experience that Canadian bureaucrats make mistakes, but I've never had any dealings with Israeli bureaucrats. Perhaps they are exceptional...
I don't think Hamas lying when they count police as civilians.
Israel defines all police in Gaza as militants. The Red Cross (who has the final say) consider police to be civilians, unless they participate in the fighting.
Hamas seems to be sticking to the universally accepted definition. Seems to me Israel is lying if they make up their own definitions regarding who is and isn't a militant. What if Israel defined Palestinian women, children and even babies as militants. Could they then claim, they don't kill any civilians? Or would that be a lie, just like Israel's definition of militants which includes police, judges, secretaries, university professors...
I have never claimed that Hamas does not commit war crimes. READ MY POSTS. Quote me, don't make stuff up.
What I've claimed is that Hamas war crimes are not on the same scale as Israeli war crimes. You can't even bring yourself to admit Israel even commits war crimes, no matter how obvious, blatant or outrageous.
Hamas believes in an "eye for an eye" as per the Qu'ran. If Israel kills Palestinian children then they believe they have the right to kill an equal number of Israeli children. Your reference mentions only the second part of Hamas's reasoning but leaves out the first. It completely ignores the fact that Israel has killed thousands of Palestinian children. That's called selective truth or selective omission propaganda.
I disagree with Hamas regarding the concept of "an eye for an eye". Israeli war crimes do not justify Hamas war crimes.
I agree with M.K. Ghandi: "An eye for an eye make the whole world blind."
Actually, there were two names. And fourteen who were murdered by Hamas. What was that about omission?
You may be right, burocrats make mistakes. However, I do recall reading something about the IDF using ID numbers, which I assume is akin to SIN numbers, making identification errors less likely. It's no secret that it's common for there to be a lot of repitition in Arabic names. I think the IDF would have thought of that. I also think that if it were a mistake, we wouldn't be speculating about it, it would be all over google by now about how Israel lies.
I think they are. What duties does a Gaza police officer have other than to enforce the will of Hamas? They don't exactly have an independent judicial branch now, do they? Remember how we always say the Palestinains should have got on with the business of nation building in Gaza instead of rocket launching? That's part of what we're talking about. Can't have it both ways. Gaza police are Hamas henchmen, pure and simple.
I don't recall ever claiming you did claim Hamas does not commit war crimes. Am I forgetful and owing you an apology, or are you making stuff up?
And you're completely ignoring all the provocation against Israel. Even with all the school bus bombings, disco bombings, cafe bombings, machinegunning students in classrooms etc. etc. etc, I have never heard an Israeli official declare that Palestinian children are fair game. Only the Palestinain leadership has done that.
You can call it whatever you want, until the Palestinians stop raising their kids to want to be shahid more than anything else, they will keep suffering and they will keep dying. Palestinian children suffer because Palestinain adults lack the emotional maturity to let go of their hate. Their hatred of Jews defines them.
And so the cycle continues.
Actually, there were two names. And fourteen who were murdered by Hamas. What was that about omission?
Hamas and Fatah are fighting a civil war. The US and Israel arm the Fatah dictatorship which ousted the democratically elected Hamas by force. Both sides have killed hundreds of people. Some of the deaths involved extreme torture and violence.
You statement about Hamas committing murder is very similar to saying "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It has a built in assumption about guilt.
The Palestinian civil war was initiated by a failed Fatah attempt to assassinate the elected Hamas PM, which led to a series of reprisal killings and eventually a full scale civil war where the Fatah dictatoship gained control of West Bank and the democratically elected Hamas gained control of Gaza. The US and Israeli support the Fatah dictatorship ove the democratically elected Hamas and have provided arms and training to Fatah militants:
If you are seriously interested in knowing the details, I also recommend these links:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1184063445218&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article7038.shtml
So I don't think murder is quite the right term. Civil war casualties would be more accurate.
You may be right, burocrats make mistakes. However, I do recall reading something about the IDF using ID numbers, which I assume is akin to SIN numbers, making identification errors less likely. It's no secret that it's common for there to be a lot of repitition in Arabic names. I think the IDF would have thought of that. I also think that if it were a mistake, we wouldn't be speculating about it, it would be all over google by now about how Israel lies.
Now this statement defies common sense. How exactly did Israel identify the people buried under the rubble of buildings they bombed. Do you believe Israel sent in teams to remove bodies from the debris??? Fact is Gazans rescued the injured and retrieved the bodies at great personal risk. Many of the Gaza dead were killed by more Israeli bombs as they were trying to rescue fellow Gazans.
The Gaza government released the names of the dead which Israel then tried to match to the names in their database... with limited success apparently. Hamas identifies a child, prints their name and then Israel claims the person is an adult according to their database. If Hamas was lying, why would they name an adult as a child, why wouldn't they name a child as a child. Either Hamas are pretty bad liars, or Israel is making stuff up.
I think they are. What duties does a Gaza police officer have other than to enforce the will of Hamas? They don't exactly have an independent judicial branch now, do they? Remember how we always say the Palestinains should have got on with the business of nation building in Gaza instead of rocket launching? That's part of what we're talking about. Can't have it both ways. Gaza police are Hamas henchmen, pure and simple.
More BS. Police officers in Gaza do the same things police officers do elsewhere. They uphold the law.
Fact is, Israel has no authority to dictate to Hamas the definition of who is and isn't a militant. The internationally recognized authority in this area is the International Red Cross, not Israel.
ICRC
The seven fundamental rules which are the basis of the Geneva Conventions and the Additional Protocols.
1 - Persons hors de combat (out of action or disabled) and those who do not take a direct part in hostilities are entitled to respect for their lives and their moral and physical integrity. They shall in all circumstances be protected and treated humanely without any adverse distinction.
eao: Palestinian police officers are civilians unless they take a direct part in the hostilities. So are Judges, Secretaries, Professors... the only people who meet the definition of militants are the people directly involved in the fighting. One of things Gaza police do and continue to do is arrest Gaza militants who fire rockets at Israel in defiance of Hamas. Not only are Gaza police officers not militants, they actually reduce the number of rockets fired at Israel. Your use of the term "henchmen" to describe Gaza police is hardly objective or fact based.
2 - It is forbidden to kill or injure an enemy who surrenders or who is hors de combat.
3 - The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for by the party to the conflict which has them in its power.
Protection also covers medical personnel, establishments, transports and equipment. The emblem of the red
cross or the red crescent is the sign of such protection and must be respected.
Ha'aretz - Israeli News
4 - Captured combatants and civilians under the authority of an adverse party are entitled to respect for their lives,dignity, personal rights and convictions. They shall be protected against all acts of violence and reprisals. They shall have the right to correspond with their families and to receive relief.
Both sides do this. Hamas with their single captive, Israel with thousands of captives.
5 - Everyone shall be entitled to benefit from fundamental judicial guarantees. No one shall be held responsible for an act he has not committed. No one shall be subjected to physical or mental torture, corporal punishment or cruel or degrading treatment.
Likely Shalit, if he's alive, isn't treated well but no one knows. Israel OTH has a long and well documented history of torture and summary execution. Israel not only abducts and tortures people of interest, but also their family members.
6 - Parties to a conflict and members of their armed forces do not have an unlimited choice of methods and means of warfare. It is prohibited to employ weapons or methods of warfare of a nature to cause unnecessary losses or excessive suffering.
For example Israel's use of white phosphorus, heavy artillery and indiscriminate bombing of densely populated urban areas are war crimes.
http://www.hrw.org/node/81760
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/16/israel-stop-shelling-crowded-gaza-city
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/30/israelgaza-civilians-must-not-be-targets
Sooner or later, Israel is going to get what its been giving. That's not a wish but an inevitability.
7 - Parties to a conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants in order to spare civilian population and property. Neither the civilian population as such nor civilian persons shall be the object of attack. Attacks shall be directed solely against military objectives.
Israel gets around this by defining nearly every Palestinian a combatant and nearly every building as a militant base. That includes people's homes, schools, universities, government buildings, market places...
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/668BF8
I don't recall ever claiming you did claim Hamas does not commit war crimes. Am I forgetful and owing you an apology, or are you making stuff up?
And you're completely ignoring all the provocation against Israel. Even with all the school bus bombings, disco bombings, cafe bombings, machinegunning students in classrooms etc. etc. etc, I have never heard an Israeli official declare that Palestinian children are fair game. Only the Palestinain leadership has done that.
You can call it whatever you want, until the Palestinians stop raising their kids to want to be shahid more than anything else, they will keep suffering and they will keep dying. Palestinian children suffer because Palestinain adults lack the emotional maturity to let go of their hate. Their hatred of Jews defines them.
And so the cycle continues.
Provocations? BS. The current round of violence was initiated by Israel, not Hamas. In October 2008 only a single rocket came from Gaza and it wasn't fired by Hamas. That's the calmest Gaza had been in over 5 years, thanks to Hamas's efforts to abide by the ceasefire. On November 4, 2008, Israel launched an unprovoked attack against Hamas which killed 6 people. From June 2008 until December 27, 2008, not a single Israeli had been killed by a rocket fired from Gaza. On December 27, 2008, Israeli bombs killed hundreds of people. You really have to twist the facts to make it sound like Israel was provoked into attacking. Israel's leaders attacked Gaza in order to boost their chances of winning February 2009 elections.
If you go further back, you can see that every attack by one side was preceded by an attack by the other side. Back and forth its gone and the only thing that's changed over time is the increased amount of land occupied by Israeli colonists and reduced amount of land accessible to Palestinians.
Israel and Hamas had a ceasefire before it was broken by Israel on November 4. Go back to the previous ceasefire, and that was also broken by Israel. Israel is hardly an innocent victim of unprovoked violence.
Israeli apologists claim Israel gave Gazans a chance when they pulled out. More BS. 8500 colonialist occupied about half of Gaza, surrounded by 1.5 million Gazans who occupied the other half. At the same time Israel pulled these peoplle out, Israel anexed about twice the amount of amount of land they gave up in Gaza from the West Bank. Within a few months this land was occupied by more than double the number of Israeli colonialists pulled out of Gaza. It would be like a thief giving back $5 they stole, but then stealing another $10. How generous of Israel. Israel only pulled out because Gaza militants forced them out. Their situation in Gaza had become undefendable.
I would agree that individuals Israelis are victims, just like individual Palestinians... but the Zionist state of Israel is the root cause of all the violence. Zionism is inherently evil and anyone who supports Zionism will eventually be seen in the same light as people who supported Apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany.
No one is violent by nature. 60 years of ethnic cleansing and 40 years of oppression and injustice has driven some Palestinians to violence out of desperation. Israel's Jewish only colonies in the West Bank, failure to grant Palestinians citizenship or a state, illegal property annexation, abductions without due process, assassinations of civilians, humanitarian food and medical aid blockade.... and so on... are war crimes. Anyone suffering like this for so long would tend to become violent. Thats also human nature.
People who suffer oppression and injustice have a fundamental right to seek freedom and justice. Their fight for freedom and justice defines Palestinians. Like all oppressed people, they hate their oppressors.
Both sides have committed war crimes. Israeli apologists like JTF, will never admit this fact or acknowledge the suffering of Palestinians.
This problem has a very simple solution. Grant Palestinians Israeli citizenship. A two state solution is no longer a viable anyway. The solution advocated by the current Israeli government is formal recognition of the staus quo, which is the root cause of the violence. Peace will come when Palestinians have freedom and justice. Accelerated land annexation and colonization, continues oppression and injustice as advocated by the current Israeli government will increase the level of violence.
BTW, I don't support Hamas or Israel. Canada and Canadians should declare our neutrality in this conflict. Canada should not support one side over the other. Canada should not be complicit in Israeli or Hamas war crimes or crimes against humanity. We should impose a complete an arms embargo on the region and only give humanitarian aid through NGO's. We should welcome our share of refugees and immigrants fleeing the violence. That includes both Palestinians and Israelis.
British MP banned from entering Canada.
Canada doesn't need to import any more racists.
We have our own.
Trex
Canada doesn't need to import any more racists.
We have our own.
Trex
Racism is a frequent but pathetic accusation cheaply and readily hung on any detractors of the puss-pie Israel. Niether Jews nor Israelis represent a racial group or subgroup so you are in fact just a merchant of distant tiny little cheap shots.
PM feared Galloway's message
Tags: CURRENT EVENTS
Anyone who has ever seen George Galloway in action knows why he had to be stopped at the border. He definitely poses a threat – although not the security one alleged by the Harper government.
Rather, Galloway, a five-times elected member of the British Parliament, poses a threat to Stephen Harper's ability to sell Canadians on our involvement in the Afghan war and on Ottawa's support for Israel in its battle against the Palestinians.
TheStar.com | Opinion | PM feared Galloway's message
Tags: CURRENT EVENTS
Anyone who has ever seen George Galloway in action knows why he had to be stopped at the border. He definitely poses a threat – although not the security one alleged by the Harper government.
Rather, Galloway, a five-times elected member of the British Parliament, poses a threat to Stephen Harper's ability to sell Canadians on our involvement in the Afghan war and on Ottawa's support for Israel in its battle against the Palestinians.
TheStar.com | Opinion | PM feared Galloway's message
To suggest witnessing genocide from a position of sublime national neutrality as some high road that affords subscribers any moral or ethical superiority is naive in my opinion. "We should impose a complete arms embargo"? Who is we? You do not seem to understand that there is no "we" to do any such thing. "We" allowed Israel these excesses, "we" armed these Israelis "we" approve thier brutality and support it "we" do what they tell us, read the wall EAO.
How does one witness genocide and remain neutral and human at the same time?
BTW I don't think anyone who reads your posts remotely supects your neutrality, least of all Israelis.:smile:
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EaO said
Unfortunately, EaO, your posts have shown that statement to be absolutely ludicrous.....you do support Hamas....you mouth its platitudes, support its aims, and uphold its honesty.....
I am proudly pro-Israeli.......and I know it.
I find it hard to believe you can't recognize your own partisanship.
Unfortunately, EaO, your posts have shown that statement to be absolutely ludicrous.....you do support Hamas....you mouth its platitudes, support its aims, and uphold its honesty.....
I am proudly pro-Israeli.......and I know it.
I find it hard to believe you can't recognize your own partisanship.
Actually "We" don't arm the Israelis. The Israeli weapons development industry is more than self sufficient, we also don't "Allow" Israel these excesses as they are a sovereign nation. We also don't "allow" North Korea or "allow" China or "allow" Russia to do things.
But quite frankly DB, I doubt you've ever even met an Israeli, so why let that stop your certainties of how they are.