British MP banned from entering Canada

earth_as_one

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L Gilbert's post above references weblogs and forums like this, but since those posts reference the Ynet News, Jerusalem Post and the IDF, I'll accept the references as reliable as the original sources.

I can't read Italian, but that source appears to reference a statement by an unamed Gaza doctor who won't identify themself out of fear therefore an unverifiable opinion.

The other posts are based on the difference between IDF and Hamas claims about the ratio of militant to civilian casualties. The main reason for the differnce comes from their different definitions.

...At a news conference Wednesday, Sarah Leah Whitson, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch, said Israel had attacked police stations in Gaza on the ground they were "combatants".

"Police were not combatants and could not represent legitimate targets unless actively engaged in hostilities," she pointed out. "It was Israel's burden of proof to show the police they targeted were, indeed, Hamas militants."

Instead, she said, it appeared that Israel had targeted police stations on a "blanket basis".

Whitson said that only combatants actively engaged in fighting were legitimate targets of Israeli attacks.

Thus, a Hamas official at the Ministry of Health was not a legitimate target and neither was a Hamas media broadcasting station....

Aid Groups Dispute Israeli Claims in Gaza Attacks | Asian Tribune

Israel: Transforming International Law by Violating It
by George Bisharat

...In the Gaza fighting, Israel has again tried to transform international law through violations. For example, its military lawyers authorized the bombing of a police cadet graduation ceremony, killing at least 63 young Palestinian men. Under international law, such deliberate killings of civilian police are war crimes. Yet Israel treats all employees of the Hamas-led government in the Gaza Strip as terrorists, and thus combatants. Secretaries, court clerks, housing officials, judges - all were, in Israeli eyes, legitimate targets for liquidation.

Israeli jurists also instructed military commanders that any Palestinian who failed to evacuate a building or area after warnings of an impending bombardment was a "voluntary human shield" and thus a participant in combat, subject to lawful attack. One method of warning employed by Israeli gunners, dubbed "knocking on the roof," was to fire first at a building's corner, then, a few minutes later, to strike more structurally vulnerable points. To imagine that Gazan civilians - penned into the tiny Gaza Strip by Israeli troops, and surrounded by the chaos of battle - understood this signal is fanciful at best.

Israel has a lengthy history of unpunished abuses of international law - among the most flagrant its decades-long colonization of the West Bank...

Israel: Transforming International Law by Violating It | CommonDreams.org

So no I don't buy IDF accusations that Hamas is lying about the ratio of civilians to militants, nor do I accept the IDF definition of who is a militant, civilian or human shield. I'll go with the Hamas definition, which is based on international law.
 

CDNBear

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L Gilbert's post above references weblogs and forums like this, but since those posts reference the Ynet News, Jerusalem Post and the IDF, I'll accept the references as reliable as the original sources.

I can't read Italian, but that source appears to reference a statement by an unamed Gaza doctor who won't identify themself out of fear therefore an unverifiable opinion.

The other posts are based on the difference between IDF and Hamas claims about the ratio of militant to civilian casualties. The main reason for the differnce comes from their different definitions.





So no I don't buy IDF accusations that Hamas is lying about the ratio of civilians to militants, nor do I accept the IDF definition of who is a militant, civilian or human shield. I'll go with the Hamas definition, which is based on international law.
More of your typical crap eao. Dismiss as untrue or biased, because it comes from Israel and not hamas...you really are an ass.

Funny though, they document each and every kill with...

Out of the 1,338 Palestinian fatalities, the CLA has now identified over 1,200. The Post notes that “its 200-page report lists their names, their official Palestinian Authority identity numbers, the circumstances in which they were killed and, where appropriate, the terrorist group with which they were affiliated.”

None of those links are Forums, and they can be traced to their original sourse, which of course, you can find the Journalist and research them as well.

So there is no doubt in my mind that you failed to grasp anything that was presented as you traced the articles to sourse.

You can't actually prove that anything given was false, you just say it is, therefore its is, in your mind alone. I can and as I have done with the multitude of your cut&pastes, rip apart BS stories. Like some of your best, where the story circles back to the same author, but of a different story. Or my personal fave, where it circles right back to the same artical.

Nice try eao, but you'll have to do better than say "It's not true" to convince me.
 

earth_as_one

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Still haven't convinced me that Hamas doesn't lie. Hamas is made up of people. People lie.
That's a fundamental truth of course and I agree.

But catching Hamas in a lie is another issue especially on the big stuff. I haven't been able to do this and neither has anyone else here. These people are pious religious zealots. They have very strong cultural and religious reasons for being as honest as possible. I believe they believe lying would lead to serious consequences in the afterlife.

If they were liars, why wouldn't they just say, "We recognize Israel, lets have a permanant peace" and then plot Israel's destruction in secret? Instead they say, "We don't recognize Israel and we will eventually get our land back" and openly plot Israel's destruction. Such statements make me question their intelligence, but not their honesty. Abu Shanab and other Hamas leaders (now deceased), offered Israel a 25 year hudna (ceasefire). They offered to leave it to the next generation to decide what kind of a relationship Palestinians should have with Israel, in return for getting back all land Israel has seized (illegally) since 1967.

CB, if you count unarmed secretaries, court clerks, housing officials, judges... as well as armed police officers as "militants" then go with the Israeli numbers. Israel is the only country which would count these people as militants.

The rest of the world goes with the same definition as Hamas. Unarmed civilians and police officers don't count as militants.
 

CDNBear

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CB, if you count unarmed secretaries, court clerks, housing officials, judges... as well as armed police officers as "militants" then go with the Israeli numbers. Israel is the only country which would count these people as militants.
I guess it matter on who you believe. I'll stick with those that provide ID's. Instead of your hero's the right honourable Hamas and friends...:roll:
The rest of the world goes with the same definition as Hamas. Unarmed civilians and police officers don't count as militants.
:roll:

Ya, I stand completely alone here, questioning your BS...:lol:
 

L Gilbert

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I don't really care so much WHERE the information comes from as long as it isn't fabrication (unless it's intended to be a joke).

Apparently all bloggers and pro-Israel sources are lying about Hamas lying. :roll: Sorry, but I don't hold the Hamas up as reliable. It's obvious Israel lies. They don't seem to be too creative that way.
 

earth_as_one

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I guess it matter on who you believe. I'll stick with those that provide ID's. Instead of your hero's the right honourable Hamas and friends...:roll:
:roll:

Ya, I stand completely alone here, questioning your BS...:lol:

I hate to burst your bubble, but the IDF is hardly an objective source of information regarding their own actions and is certainly no more objective than Hamas.

Israel has their own unique definition of who is and isn't a civilian. You might find this BBC article enlightening:
Gaza conflict: Who is a civilian?

...The International Committee of the Red Cross - guardian of the Geneva Conventions on which international humanitarian law is based - defines a combatant as a person "directly engaged in hostilities"....

...Analysts say Hamas policemen are responsible for quashing dissent and rooting out spies, as well as tackling crime and directing traffic.

But the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, which has raised the issue in a letter to Israel’s attorney general, says it appears those killed were being trained in first aid, human rights and maintaining public order....

...Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions - quoted by Israel, although not signed by it - says that for a site to be a legitimate military target it must "make an effective contribution to military action" and its destruction or neutralisation must also offer "a definite military advantage"....

... its targeting of the education, interior and foreign ministries and the parliament building, Israel simply argues they are part of the Hamas infrastructure – and there is no difference between its political and military wings.

"To claim that all of those offices are legitimate targets, just because they are affiliated with Hamas, is legally flawed and extremely problematic," says B’Tselem director Jessica Montell...

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Gaza conflict: Who is a civilian?

A more objective source than the IDF would be the Palestine Center for Human Rights. The PCHR is a Non-Government Organization consisting of mostly lawyers and Human Rights Activists. They report on all human rights violations in the Gaza, including those by Hamas and the IDF:
Palestinian Center for Human Rights

As per the link above, the UN considers the PCHR as an objective source. Here is what they have to say:

PCHR Contests Distortion of Gaza Strip Death Toll

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) contest figures presented by the Israeli Coordination and Liaison Authority for the Gaza Strip which claim that 1,370 Palestinians were killed in the course of Israel’s 23 day military offensive on the Gaza Strip. The Israeli Coordination Authority claim that 600 of the dead were combatants, and that 309 civilians were killed in the attack. They have yet to classify 320 Palestinians.

PCHR regards this as a deliberately manipulative attempt to distort the reality of the offensive, and to disguise Israel’s illegal actions. Following extensive investigation and cross-checking, PCHR have determined that a total of 1,417 Palestinians died in the offensive. 926 were civilians, including 313 children and 116 women. 255 were non-combatant police officers. 236 combatants were killed, representing 16.7% of the total deaths.

PCHR’s findings are available in Arabic at Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. An English version is currently in translation.

PCHR consider the IOF’s classification of police officers as combatants illegal: this classification constitutes a wilful violation of the principle of distinction, a key component of customary international law. Hamas is a multi-faceted organisation, exercising de facto governmental control of the Gaza Strip. As an organisation, it cannot be considered an armed group. Rather, a distinction must be made between Hamas’ armed and political/civil components. The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades are the military wing of the Hamas organisation, they are an armed group, and are considered as combatants according to IHL. However, Hamas’ political and civil wings are comprised of civilians, who are legally entitled to the protections associated with this status, provided they do not take an active part in hostilities. Civil police, and governmental officials cannot be considered combatants. Attacks intentionally directed against these individuals constitute wilful killing, a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions, and a violation of customary international law.

The excessively disproportionate civilian death toll, and Israel’s conduct of hostilities – including, inter alia, indiscriminate attacks, wilful killing, the extensive destruction of property, target selection, the lack of precautions taken in attack, the excessive use of force, and the use of weapons such as white phosphorous in civilian areas – demand effective judicial redress. Many of the cases documented by PCHR constitute grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, and war crimes...

http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2008/44-2009.html
 

earth_as_one

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I don't really care so much WHERE the information comes from as long as it isn't fabrication (unless it's intended to be a joke).

Apparently all bloggers and pro-Israel sources are lying about Hamas lying. :roll: Sorry, but I don't hold the Hamas up as reliable. It's obvious Israel lies. They don't seem to be too creative that way.

I don't consider Hamas objective regarding their conflict with Israel. But so far, no one here (not even you) has caught Hamas in a lie.

LG, the links in your post claim Hamas lied about the number of civilians and militants killed recently in Gaza, because their numbers didn't match the IDF's numbers. I just pointed out above that Israel has a very unique way of classifying who is and isn't a civilian. Their classification system is not supported by International Humanitarian Law.

Are newly graduated police cadets militants or not? Israel says they are. International Humanitarian Law says they aren't.

Are secretaries, court clerks, housing officials and judges working in government building militants? Israel says they are. International Humanitarian Law says they aren't.

Your post doesn't prove Hamas is lying. It proves that Israel has a different definition of who is and isn't a civilian from the rest of the world.
 

Colpy

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I don't consider Hamas objective regarding their conflict with Israel. But so far, no one here (not even you) has caught Hamas in a lie.

LG, the links in your post claim Hamas lied about the number of civilians and militants killed recently in Gaza, because their numbers didn't match the IDF's numbers. I just pointed out above that Israel has a very unique way of classifying who is and isn't a civilian. Their classification system is not supported by International Humanitarian Law.

Are newly graduated police cadets militants or not? Israel says they are. International Humanitarian Law says they aren't.

Are secretaries, court clerks, housing officials and judges working in government building militants? Israel says they are. International Humanitarian Law says they aren't.

Your post doesn't prove Hamas is lying. It proves that Israel has a different definition of who is and isn't a civilian from the rest of the world.

No, EaO, Hamas has been caught in many many lies.....it is just that you ALWAYS choose to believe their part of the story.....you are exactly what Stalin used to call
a "useful idiot",.......one who defends their enemy because they can't believe, despite all the evidence, that their enemy is not their friend.

Stalin spoke of western leftist who supported the monstrousity of the USSR....

You support Islamo-fascists....

Exactly the same thing.
 

earth_as_one

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Did I miss something Colpy? Where has someone here caught Hamas in a lie?

Regarding useful idiots... I'm not the one defending war crimes or crimes against humanity.
 

CDNBear

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I hate to burst your bubble, but the IDF is hardly an objective source of information regarding their own actions and is certainly no more objective than Hamas.[/quote[Ummm, ya...considering the OCHR doesn't recognise ununiformed soldiers as anything but civilians and is repleat with people like you. Ya, I can see why they would get a different total and why you would buy it, hook, line and sinker.

Israel has their own unique definition of who is and isn't a civilian. You might find this BBC article enlightening:
Ya, uniformed or not, it's holding a weapon, it's dead. 5 or 65, make or female.


A more objective source than the IDF would be the Palestine Center for Human Rights. The PCHR is a Non-Government Organization consisting of mostly lawyers and Human Rights Activists.
And people like you. Making them about as objective as your vision of the IDF.
They report on all human rights violations in the Gaza, including those by Hamas and the IDF:
Palestinian Center for Human Rights
And they never seem to be able to lay down the law with Hamas eh...surprise.

As per the link above, the UN considers the PCHR as an objective source. Here is what they have to say:
That's great. I consider the UN to be a toothless Tiger, filled with idiots, run by fools and admired by morons.

One need only look as far as the UN human rights commission to understand why.

No doubt that is lost on you. Even though AI, HRW and a myriad of other NGO's have condemned the bulk of the member nations on the human rights commission. There they sit, judging the globe.

I guess you would disagree with me on that...

Did I miss something Colpy?
The boat...the point...the line where God was handing out critical thought...
Where has someone here caught Hamas in a lie?
8O...:lol:

Regarding useful idiots... I'm not the one defending war crimes or crimes against humanity.
That's projecting eao...because yes you are. Not one of us has defended IDF crimes against humanity. Unlike yourself, who only plays lip service to the atrocities committed by Hamas and the Hezbollah.

And since we're on the subject...lol... Speaking of bias, watch this and please try to 'unbiased'...lol...

Fauxtography
 
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einmensch

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EOA.....You've got more patience than I have. I'm outa here. I don't know why you bother to debate with most of the posters in this thread. With few exceptions, most have no idea on how to frame an argument and back it up without insulting and denigrating those they differ with. The quality of debate here is not worth the effort.

That is the whole strategy. All the fanatics bunch together and insult--they are the Cyber warriors--truth is their enemy--but coming from gravesend, Germania,hunts,brace or vancounet you weren't expecting ignorance

-their tribe credits each others comment and all give you a negative review--quite a game
-with ignorance they won by your abdication

I was impressed with your positions but that will bring further anger
 

CDNBear

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That is the whole strategy. All the fanatics bunch together and insult--they are the Cyber warriors--truth is their enemy--http://www.emotihost.com/glass7/4.gif

Coming from the likes of you, that's rich!

In my first discussion with you, I merely disagreed with your premice and was soundly accused of being an 'idiot'. Unwarranted, uncalled for...I might add.

but coming from gravesend, Germania,hunts,brace or vancounet you weren't expecting ignorance

-their tribe credits each others comment and all give you a negative review--quite a game
-with ignorance they won by your abdication

I was impressed with your positions but that will bring further anger
No, what draws our attention and our contempt, is blind stupidity.

One need not be on the opposition, to attract our wrath. If fact we come here looking for opposition. What draws our contempt, is when someone is confronted with fact and readily dismisses it without so much as a second thought. Oft based solely on political ideology or prejudice. Your case being the latter.

Though you and your ilk accuse us of so many injustices here, you have failed in every attempt to back up those accusations with anything resembling fact.

It's willful blindness that gains our poisoned tongues a rapier wit.

And ein, posters that live in glass forums, really should fling vowels.

Pot, meet kettle...;-)
 

Just the Facts

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I've seen accusations of Hamas using ambulances to move militants and munitions illegally but nothing from a reputable source. If this was true, how come there are no complaints by ambulance drivers? Find me a link to a reputable source to back up your claim. I'll accept the UN, Amnesty International, Human Right's Watch, B'Tselem...
I thought you said credible?

Anyway:

Hamas tried to hijack ambulances during Gaza war - World - smh.com.au

Mohammed Shriteh, 30, is an ambulance driver registered with and trained by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society.

His first day of work in the al-Quds neighbourhood was January 1, the sixth day of the war. "Mostly the war was not as fast or as chaotic as I expected," Mr Shriteh told the Herald. "We would co-ordinate with the Israelis before we pick up patients, because they have all our names, and our IDs, so they would not shoot at us."

Mr Shriteh said the more immediate threat was from Hamas, who would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety.

YouTube - Hamas Using UN Ambulance

Hamas fighters using ambulances.
 

Colpy

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Just a minute!

Is this ambulance driver a certified member of Hamas?

No?

Then he is a liar. Hamas and ONLY Hamas speaks truth.

:)
 

gerryh

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he's probably just another one of those jewish lackeys trying to make hamas look bad.