British MP banned from entering Canada

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Unforgiven,

The Guardian may be a left wing publication, but their video footage leaves little space for debate. Its sensless to go on denying the "facts". I can quote dozens of reputable sources which support Hamas's statement that the IDF attacked ambulances and medics in violation of international law:

Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

... Israeli soldiers repeatedly acted in violation of the army's code of ethics, the medical code of ethics, and basic human values....

...Attacks on Medical Personnel
The report details 12 incidents, including occurrences in which helicopters and tanks fired on ambulances and medical personnel. In other instances medical teams were turned away by soldiers from areas that they reached to treat the wounded.

On December 31 a helicopter hit a medical team that had set out to offer help to a bleeding injured person in the northeast Gaza Strip. The doctor, the paramedic, and the wounded person they had gone to help were killed.

On January 10th five Red Crescent ambulances and a Red Cross car entered the Al-Atatra neighborhood and tank fire erupted in their direction. An ambulance driver and paramedic were injured and the medical team left without evacuating the wounded....

:: PHR.org.il ::

Unless Hamas was fighting with helicopters and tanks in Gaza, its pretty clear who was attacking the ambulances and medics as they tried to evacuate the wounded and dying.

Amnesty International
Attacks on ambulance workers in Gaza

Ambulance hit by missile on 4 January 2009 from drone while picking up wounded militants in Beit Lahya, Gaza
© Amnesty International

28 January 2009
Emergency medical rescue workers, including doctors, paramedics and ambulance drivers, have repeatedly come under fire from Israeli forces in the Gaza conflict while carrying out their duties.

At least seven of them have been killed and more than 20 injured while transporting or attempting to collect the wounded and the dead....

Attacks on ambulance workers in Gaza | Amnesty International
Well that's pretty clear.

Do you seriously believe "Physicians For Human Rights - Israel" and "Amnesty International" are sources of pro-Hamas propaganda?

The rest of your post is just an attempt to discredit me. You aren't interested in debate. You are just another Israeli apologist who want to suppress knowledge about Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity. How's that working?

Google:
Results 1 - 10 of about 2,250,000 for israel "war crimes".
Results 1 - 10 of about 537,000 for israel "crimes against humanity".

I don't hate you, I don't hate Jews and I don't hate Israelis. If you believe that, then you must believe "Physicians for Human Rights -Israel" and "Amnesty International" also hate Jews and Israelis.

Read my posts and you will see that I am consistently against the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity by both sides. Most of my posts concern Israeli violations, for three reasons:

1) Our news does an inadequate job reporting Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity
2) Israeli violations are far more grave and have caused far more suffering than those committed by their adversaries
3) People like yourself deny them and try to silence anyone who criticizes them.

I am against oppression and injustice plain and simple. I've never once made an anti-Semitic post. If Jews and Israelis were suffering injustice and oppression and our news was not reporting it, I'd be posting on that subject too. I don't classify people by race or religion. I classify individuals by their actions. I consider all people as equals.

The Zionist State of Israel's actions have turned me into their critic. But I am no enemy of the Israeli people or Jews. I'll stop criticizing the Israeli government when they stop their injustice and oppression.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
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Unforgiven,

The Guardian may be a left wing publication, but their video footage leaves little space for debate. Its sensless to go on denying the "facts". I can quote dozens of reputable sources which support Hamas's statement that the IDF attacked ambulances and medics in violation of international law:

Movies can be shot to look any way you want.
My point is that you go on and on about how the IDF violated international law. At this point I have to say so what? There has been years and year of all sides violating international law.

After someone has robbed the bank, killed the hostages and now threatens to blow up the building, you have to get over that they have been illegaly parked from the begining.

The rest of your post is just an attempt to discredit me. You aren't interested in debate. You are just another Israeli apologist who want to suppress knowledge about Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity. How's that working?

This is typical of the Palestinian mandate. commit a terrorist act and then call Israelis terrorists. As for suppressing knowledge about Israel's war crimes, who the hell at this point doesn't know? Everyone knows, it's just that most don't care. The Palestinians bring it on themselves and have for generations now.

An arsonist gets burned, a rapist gets screwed with a broom in jail, no cares about it. The Palestinians wouldn't know what do without the IDF kicking their butt each day. If it all came to an end today, no more walls no more IDF, no more segrigation, the first thing Palestinians would do is try to kill Israelies. They're stupid like that.
So it doesn't matter who violates what over there any more.

I don't hate you, I don't hate Jews and I don't hate Israelis. If you believe that, then you must believe "Physicians for Human Rights -Israel" and "Amnesty International" also hate Jews and Israelis.

So there is no one in the world that hates Jews? Impossible to think that any organization could possibly have a single person involved that hates Jews? That's so very odd with all the Jew hating that goes on in the world.

Read my posts and you will see that I am consistently against the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity by both sides. Most of my posts concern Israeli violations, for three reasons:

1) Our news does an inadequate job reporting Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity
2) Israeli violations are far more grave and have caused far more suffering than those committed by their adversaries
3) People like yourself deny them and try to silence anyone who criticizes them.

I have. You've posted the same message what... 100 times just on this website alone? Honest after the first 20 times or so I got it. Now it's just blah blah blah. No one is trying to silence anyone. Just change the freaking record already!

I am against oppression and injustice plain and simple. I've never once made an anti-Semitic post. If Jews and Israelis were suffering injustice and oppression and our news was not reporting it, I'd be posting on that subject too. I don't classify people by race or religion. I classify individuals by their actions. I consider all people as equals.

Right, you have an agenda, it's well know already. Is there anything more to you than simply repeating the same thing over ad nausium?

The Zionist State of Israel's actions have turned me into their critic. But I am no enemy of the Israeli people or Jews. I'll stop criticizing the Israeli government when they stop their injustice and oppression.

There is plenty of injustice all over the world. You're dead silent on the rest of it. So how is it that you say you are one thing, yet fail to show that you are anything other than a Palestinian hack blithering on about things that Palestinians refuse to change?

How many people have simply written you off here?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Movies can be shot to look any way you want.
My point is that you go on and on about how the IDF violated international law. At this point I have to say so what? There has been years and year of all sides violating international law.

After someone has robbed the bank, killed the hostages and now threatens to blow up the building, you have to get over that they have been illegaly parked from the begining.



This is typical of the Palestinian mandate. commit a terrorist act and then call Israelis terrorists. As for suppressing knowledge about Israel's war crimes, who the hell at this point doesn't know? Everyone knows, it's just that most don't care. The Palestinians bring it on themselves and have for generations now.

An arsonist gets burned, a rapist gets screwed with a broom in jail, no cares about it. The Palestinians wouldn't know what do without the IDF kicking their butt each day. If it all came to an end today, no more walls no more IDF, no more segrigation, the first thing Palestinians would do is try to kill Israelies. They're stupid like that.
So it doesn't matter who violates what over there any more.



So there is no one in the world that hates Jews? Impossible to think that any organization could possibly have a single person involved that hates Jews? That's so very odd with all the Jew hating that goes on in the world.



I have. You've posted the same message what... 100 times just on this website alone? Honest after the first 20 times or so I got it. Now it's just blah blah blah. No one is trying to silence anyone. Just change the freaking record already!



Right, you have an agenda, it's well know already. Is there anything more to you than simply repeating the same thing over ad nausium?



There is plenty of injustice all over the world. You're dead silent on the rest of it. So how is it that you say you are one thing, yet fail to show that you are anything other than a Palestinian hack blithering on about things that Palestinians refuse to change?

How many people have simply written you off here?

Still won't admit that Hamas was telling the truth about IDF soldiers shooting at ambulances and medics in violation of international law. Let's see, I've shown an incident caught on video, and referenced reports by Physicians for Human Rights and Amnesty International. I guess nothing less than taking you to Gaza and driving around in ambulance until the IDF shoots at us is going to convince you.

I'm well aware of the war crimes committed by Palestinians. Firing rockets and mortars are technically war crimes, but over the years those war crimes haven't killed many people or caused much suffering relative to the suffering caused by Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity. Doesn't make it right or justify them though. I'd say the suicide bombings were worse.

Sure plenty of people hate Jews. I'm not one of them. I'm agnostic, so my viewpoint regarding Judaism is about the same as Christianity and Islam. All three preach peaceful co-existance. Too bad more Jews, Christians and Muslims don't follow their religion more closely.

Regarding the Jewish culture, I only have one Jewish friend. I'm his client. He's a very nice person, but a tough negotiator. Always offering me sweets when I visit. He's supposed to be on a diet and I think he's using me as an excuse. But a very likeable person. So is his wife. I'd say he's open minded and tolerant. My wife works with a Jewish doctor. He's an older gentleman. Very funny. Makes her laugh.

Yes of course people and organizations exist who hate Jews. But I'm not one of them nor do I belong to any organization like that. I think anti-Semitism is ugly and I'm against it for the same reason why I'm against people like yourself who hate Palestinians. That's plain to anyone who reads your comments above.

If I was aware of any overt examples of anti-Semitism in Canada, I'd be posting against it. Personally I've never seen it. I have seen racial discrimination against Blacks and people from the First Nations in Canada. Also I've experienced personally anti-white prejudice while travelling/working in Northern Ontario. Given some of the experiences of these people, I understand it. It may take a generation or two to heals some wounds.

Unforgiven, are you really having a hard time understanding why I would be against Israel's treatment of Palestinians?

I'm not talking about parking illegally. I have seen images of children being burned alive by White Phosphorus, bodies of newly graduated Police cadets blown to pieces, people picking through garbage for food to feed their children, a father holding up his decapitated child's body, IDF soldiers using Palestinian children as human shields... Your inability to accept any proof that IDF soldiers attacked ambulances and medics shows you are in denial of Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Maybe I am repeating myself. But everytime someone belittles oppression and injustice or denies it exists like you do, I'm going to post a rebuttal and reference reputable sources to back up my points. I doubt I'll ever convince you that Palestinians are human beings like the rest of us, that some people in the IDF are really nasty or that Israel's leaders should be arrested for War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity... But other people lurk here. Debates like these linger for while before they fade from the internet.

I'm also confident that the tide is turning against Israel. At one time I used to support Israel. I don't anymore. Or let's put it this way. I don't support the Zionist State of Israel. I can't. I'm against oppression and injustice. I can no more support the Zionist State of Israel than I could support Aparthied State of South Africa or Rwandan Genocide or what's happening in Darfur.

The internet has changed everything. 20 years ago, I never would have been able to find videos of Israel's atrocities within hours of Israel committing them. Israel's new government is probably the most extreme in its history. They will commit new war crimes and crimes against humanity and this information will also spread across the internet. Israel cannot hide their atrocities anymore. As more and more people become aware, they will like me, stop supporting Israel.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
Are you people still arguing this crap?

The asshat was kept out, the law stood the test of the Judicial system. His voice was heard, so free speech obviously wasn't the issue...

What's to discuss?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Still won't admit that Hamas was telling the truth about IDF soldiers shooting at ambulances and medics in violation of international law.

And when Hamas has been caught using ambulances to move around munitions and soldiers it stops being in violation of international law. Thats why using ambulances to move munitions and soldiers is in violation of international law.


I'm well aware of the war crimes committed by Palestinians. Firing rockets and mortars are technically war crimes, but over the years those war crimes haven't killed many people or caused much suffering relative to the suffering caused by Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Snip

Maybe I am repeating myself. But everytime someone belittles oppression and injustice or denies it exists like you do, I'm going to post a rebuttal and reference reputable sources to back up my points. I doubt I'll ever convince you that Palestinians are human beings like the rest of us, that some people in the IDF are really nasty or that Israel's leaders should be arrested for War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity... But other people lurk here. Debates like these linger for while before they fade from the internet.


This is the part that annoys most of us. You moan and despair the overlooking and bellittling injustice but you do the same damn thing.

Firing rockets is not "technically a war crime" it IS A warcrime. There is no justification, no amount of "But they have barely hurt anyone"

Warcrime.

Everyone in Hamas is a warcriminal and should be hauled before the criminal court.

You want to make things clear? Stop saying you respect and admire Hamas for their honesty.

Come out and say it,

Hamas as all dishonourable and all deserve to be sent for trial on the Hague for their warcrimes, regardless of anything Israel has done, because 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Can you do that? Or will it devolve into more justifications because you think the Actions of Israel somehow matter to their own crimes?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Evacuating the wounded from the battlefield is legal. Shooting at the medics as they evacuate the wounded is illegal. Just ask Omar Khadr.

I've seen accusations of Hamas using ambulances to move militants and munitions illegally but nothing from a reputable source. If this was true, how come there are no complaints by ambulance drivers? Find me a link to a reputable source to back up your claim. I'll accept the UN, Amnesty International, Human Right's Watch, B'Tselem... or any major news source.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I admire Hamas. You are either deliberately or mistakenly misinterpreting my comments.

Assuming you are being sincere, I'll try to clarify.

What I said about Hamas is that they are honest and keep their word. You have still yet to catch Hamas in a lie or deception. I've done a fair bit of research on this conflict and I've yet to come across a concrete example. That doesn't mean I admire them. Respect them? Not necessarily.

I admire and respect President Bill Clinton even though he's a liar. I think Osama Bin Laden is far more honest than Clinton. But I'd rather hang out with Clinton than OBL. I'm a pacifist, but even I would probably shoot OBL, especially if it would have prevented 9/11. (lesser of two evils)

Not every member of Hamas is a war criminal. That would be like saying every Israeli politician and IDF soldier is a war criminal. Hamas has branches which do different things. Some are purely political while others are concerned with charity. If you were to say that every Hamas militant who approved, built or fired a rocket at Israel is a war criminal, I'd agree. But members of Hamas that run schools, mosques and hospitals aren't likely war criminals.

People are responsible for their actions, not the actions of others. Not all IDF soldiers used children as human shields, dropped Chemical Weapons on civilians, bombed UN shelters, deliberately shot unarmed civilians, ambulance drivers and trucks carrying humanitarian aid. But some IDF soldiers did and as a result they should be charged with war crimes, just like the Hamas militants who fired rockets at Israeli civilians. But compare the carnage of the two groups. Israeli war criminals have killed hundreds, maybe thousands. Hamas war criminals have killed a few dozen. I think outrage should be proportional to the resulting death and destruction. So should the news coverage.

Soldiers who serve their country/people with honor and within the rules of war have my respect. Soldiers who commit war crimes should be brought before the Hague and held accountable for their actions.

I get the impression you consider every IDF soldier a hero and every Hamas militant a war criminal. I'd say it depends on the individual and how they acted.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
Although you keep ignoring my posts, like they somehow will go away and leave you and your BS alone, if you do...
Evacuating the wounded from the battlefield is legal. Shooting at the medics as they evacuate the wounded is illegal. Just ask Omar Khadr.
If Hamas hadn't set the precedent. Israel could be held accountable. But seeing as Hamas uses Ambulances to transport military supplies and personnel. It bares some of the responsiblity. Just not to you.
I've seen accusations of Hamas using ambulances to move militants and munitions illegally but nothing from a reputable source. If this was true, how come there are no complaints by ambulance drivers?
Because, oh critical thinking challenged one, you don't have to be an Ambulance driver, to actually drive and ambulance for one.
Find me a link to a reputable source to back up your claim. I'll accept the UN, Amnesty International, Human Right's Watch, B'Tselem... or any major news source.
And that would matter how? You would argue it wasn't concrete enough. Being the principal difference between you and I. I know my team' full of ****. You love yours unconditionally enough, to ignore the writing on the wall.
Both Israel and Hamas have a poor record of conducting genuine and impartial investigations, and of holding members of their own forces accountable for war crimes.
Link, Human Rights Watch

So much for your theory about them being honest and truthful.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I admire Hamas. You are either deliberately or mistakenly misinterpreting my comments.

Assuming you are being sincere, I'll try to clarify.

What I said about Hamas is that they are honest and keep their word. You have still yet to catch Hamas in a lie or deception. I've done a fair bit of research on this conflict and I've yet to come across a concrete example. That doesn't mean I admire them. Respect them? Not necessarily.

I admire and respect President Bill Clinton even though he's a liar. I think Osama Bin Laden is far more honest than Clinton. But I'd rather hang out with Clinton than OBL. I'm a pacifist, but even I would probably shoot OBL, especially if it would have prevented 9/11. (lesser of two evils)

Not every member of Hamas is a war criminal. That would be like saying every Israeli politician and IDF soldier is a war criminal. Hamas has branches which do different things. Some are purely political while others are concerned with charity. If you were to say that every Hamas militant who approved, built or fired a rocket at Israel is a war criminal, I'd agree. But members of Hamas that run schools, mosques and hospitals aren't likely war criminals.
This is true, but they perpetuate the problem, by instilling the poison into the minds of children. Which makes them worse by accounts. It's cowardly to do.
People are responsible for their actions, not the actions of others. Not all IDF soldiers used children as human shields, dropped Chemical Weapons on civilians, bombed UN shelters, deliberately shot unarmed civilians, ambulance drivers and trucks carrying humanitarian aid. But some IDF soldiers did and as a result they should be charged with war crimes, just like the Hamas militants who fired rockets at Israeli civilians. But compare the carnage of the two groups. Israeli war criminals have killed hundreds, maybe thousands. Hamas war criminals have killed a few dozen. I think outrage should be proportional to the resulting death and destruction. So should the news coverage.
That would make you a moron. If you slapped my wife, you'ld get hospitalized. That's disproportional. I know. But guess what? It's been done. I was never charged. It was defense. You have to understand one thing eao. If you're going to strike at an entity, think long and hard about the blowback. Discretion, is the better part of valour.
Soldiers who serve their country/people with honor and within the rules of war have my respect. Soldiers who commit war crimes should be brought before the Hague and held accountable for their actions.
Can't argue that.
I get the impression you consider every IDF soldier a hero and every Hamas militant a war criminal. I'd say it depends on the individual and how they acted.
Of course you would get that impression eao, you read and comprehend only what suits you.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Now....you gentlemen aren't questioning the honesty of Hamas, are you?????

I am shocked.

I kinda gave up on this thread when EaO started promoting Hamas for the Honesty in Advertising Award.

The funny (and disturbing) thing about it all is.....I really do think he believes what he says.........
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
Now....you gentlemen aren't questioning the honesty of Hamas, are you?????
No way, never...That would be sacrilegious...:-|
I am shocked.
Probably not as shocked as Hamas would be to find out someone actually believes them 100%. :cool:
I kinda gave up on this thread when EaO started promoting Hamas for the Honesty in Advertising Award.
I gave up on eao when I figured out what a vacuous individual he is. But I'm just here for the free wings and the updates on that bastion of integrity, Hamas.
The funny (and disturbing) thing about it all is.....I really do think he believes what he says.........
All of it, 100%...sad.
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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CB, I don't dispute that Hamas has committed war crimes by firing rockets at Israel. That's clearly a war crime and I agree with your HRW link.

You claim that since Hamas commits war crimes, that makes them dishonest. I disagree. I say that only means they are war criminals.

Dig a little deeper and you will find that Hamas openly admits to committing war crimes:

...Hamas' armed wing issued a statement saying Wednesday's rocket fire was in retaliation for the killing of three militants the day before by Israeli troops. The militant group also threatened more attacks in response to what it called Israeli aggression in Gaza...

Hamas Rockets Pound Israel

I can find many examples of Hamas taking responsibility for and being honest about their rocket attacks which have killed dozens of Israeli citizens over the years.

Your HRW link also points out Israel's war crimes. Israel's war crimes have killed thousands of Palestinian civilians over the years. Now try finding an example of Israel officially admitting or taking responsibility for their war crimes. They deny their war crimes or blame their adversaries. Denying war crimes would be dishonest. Committing them makes you a war criminal.

Some Hamas members are honest war criminals and some Israeli soldiers and leaders are dishonest war criminals.

Regarding Hamas using civilians as human shields. From your link:

The laws of war do not ban urban combat or prohibit fighting from civilian areas, but parties to a conflict must take all necessary precautions to protect civilians against the dangers resulting from armed hostilities.
That war crime isn't as clear cut on both sides. Each case would have to be examined individually.

Israel and Egypt prevented civilians from fleeing Gaza. That's probably a new type of war crime which caused Hamas to fight from densely populated areas. Gaza is one of the world's most densely populated places.

Also, this war was unnecessary and initiated by Israel. Its main purpose was to boost the chances of Tzipi Livni and Ehud Barak winning the election. Starting an unprovoked war is a war crime and makes these Israeli leaders responsible for the consequences.

An Unnecessary War
By Jimmy Carter
Thursday, January 8, 2009

Jimmy Carter - An Unnecessary War - washingtonpost.com

Gaza's Influence on the Israeli Election Campaign
Atlantic Community:Open Think Tank Article "Gaza's Influence on the Israeli Election Campaign"

I can find no evidence of Hamas abducting children at gun point and forcing them to stand in front of them as they exchange fire with IDF. But the UN claims the IDF did this:

Boy, 11, used as human shield by Israeli soldiers during gunfire in Gaza, claims UN

Israeli soldiers used an 11-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield during the war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, UN human rights experts have claimed.

The Israeli Defense force ordered the boy to walk in front of soldiers being fired on in the Gaza neighborhood of Tel al-Hawa and enter buildings before them, said the UN secretary-general's envoy for protecting children in armed conflict.

The boy also was told to open the bags of Palestinians - presumably to protect the soldiers from possible explosives...

Boy, 11, used as human shield by Israeli soldiers during gunfire in Gaza, claims UN | Mail Online

Regarding teaching children to hate. I'm sure the 11 year old above needs no coaching.

Its true that many Palestinians are hostile toward Israel, the US and Jews. It's also true that sentiment is passed from one generation to the next. It probably has more to do with suffering oppression and injustice for over 60 years, than school curriculum.

But yes sometimes hate is taught in the classroom. In many cases the teachers don't need to say anything:
...Nine-year-old Raghda al-Assar died last week after being hit by Israeli fire while sitting at her school desk in the Gaza Strip - the fourth child hit in similar circumstances in 18 months...

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Gaza's tragic classroom casualties


January 7, 2009
Grief and Rage at Stricken Gaza School

JABALIYA, Gaza — The bodies of the children who died outside the United Nations school here were laid out in a long row on the ground....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/world/middleeast/08scene.html?ref=middleeast

...When I first entered, I was shocked from the scenes that I saw—classrooms damaged, windows broken, every corner in the school reminds us of the war,” said Hanady Akeela, 17...

...Initial reports estimate that seven schools were completely demolished and many more were damaged....

...“We had each girl talk about her experience. Even the teachers were offered the chance to tell their stories. Every girl had a story to tell,” said English teacher Myasoun Al-Emawi.

“In classrooms where there were students killed, some of their classmates were scared to enter the class and some other classmates refused to sit in the same place where children had been killed.”

UNICEF is also concerned about the risk of unexploded ordnance, and has advocated for the clearance of school areas as a priority....

UNICEF - At a glance: Occupied Palestinian Territory - Back to school in Gaza, children welcome chance to resume normal lives

Shell-shocked children who are drawn into the cult of the martyr
The Guardian, Wednesday 7 January 2009

The bombing, shelling and shooting will stop one day. The electricity and water will be restored. And the windows of the Mousa family's flat, every one of them blown out by Israeli air force strikes on the Palestinian president's palace next door, will be replaced.

But the trauma of the four Mousa children, aged three to nine years old, will not so easily be erased. For nearly two weeks now they have endured a constant barrage of shells from navy ships they can see through the plastic now covering the windows of their seafront flat in Gaza city, as well as the air force strikes on buildings nearby.

"The children scream and cry when there's shelling. It goes on all night," said their father, Raed, 35. "Every night, all night. The building shakes. We moved into the kitchen and sleep there. It's the safest place in the house. But my children are very scared, their faces turn yellow. The sound of the guns is very loud...

Shell-shocked children who are drawn into the cult of the martyr | World news | The Guardian

...Al-Katib, 47, turned to the class before they closed their notebooks. "Work hard, study well," she told them. "I know it's not easy. If there is no electricity, use a candle. Don't sleep in the day. Study instead and sleep at night. Don't think about what's going on around us. Just think of getting high marks."

Her words were not idly chosen. The cumulative effect of years of conflict and now severe economic crisis brought on by Israel's blockade of Gaza have penetrated deep into society, deeply enough to seriously affect children's performance at school...

Gaza's children suffer as conflict enters the classroom | World news | guardian.co.uk

and so on...

CB, do you honestly believe Palestinian children hate Israel only because some of their teachers say bad things about Israel?
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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I've still waiting for the Israeli apologists to give me an example of Hamas lying. You still haven't. The onus is on the accuser to prove guilt, not the accused to prove innocence.

Read what I've said. I never said Hamas is 100% honest. I said I haven't seen a concrete example of Hamas lying. I still haven't despite you guys searching for proof. If I come across an example, I'll even post it.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
CB, I don't dispute that Hamas has committed war crimes by firing rockets at Israel. That's clearly a war crime and I agree with your HRW link.

You claim that since Hamas commits war crimes, that makes them dishonest. I disagree. I say that only means they are war criminals.

Dig a little deeper and you will find that Hamas openly admits to committing war crimes:

I can find many examples of Hamas taking responsibility for and being honest about their rocket attacks which have killed dozens of Israeli citizens over the years.
I can find many instances, using abulances, being one of them, barricading ares after launching rockets into Israel, to keep civilians in the area, to maximum civilian casualties.

Of course they deny this and Human Rights Watch has difficulty squaring away witnesses. Who themselves state that giving an account would result in certain death...

But hey, Hamas is an honest and trustworty group...you make me sick.

Your HRW link also points out Israel's war crimes. Israel's war crimes have killed thousands of Palestinian civilians over the years. Now try finding an example of Israel officially admitting or taking responsibility for their war crimes. They deny their war crimes or blame their adversaries. Denying war crimes would be dishonest. Committing them makes you a war criminal.
And glossing over, or deminishing the impact of your hero's, Hamas, makes you culpable in their crimes.

Funny, Colpy, Cannuck, Ironsides and myself, fully appreciate the fact that the IDF is far too indiscriminate in it's targeting. We fully accept that there are actions, that should be dealt with, with great vigore and justice, with regards to the IDF and their Commander's.

What we do not do, is turn a blind eye to it. We want the truth and we want the truth to be told. No rumour, not inuendo (Not to be confused with an Italian suppository), but fact, based on evidence. You prefer conjecture.

Some Hamas members are honest war criminals and some Israeli soldiers and leaders are dishonest war criminals.
So...you don't see a criminal as being less then credible, so long as they're Muslim right?
Regarding Hamas using civilians as human shields. From your link:


That war crime isn't as clear cut on both sides. Each case would have to be examined individually.
And your point would be what?

Israel and Egypt prevented civilians from fleeing Gaza. That's probably a new type of war crime which caused Hamas to fight from densely populated areas. Gaza is one of the world's most densely populated places.
Not at all. They just don't want to be over run with your war criminal buddies.

Also, this war was unnecessary and initiated by Israel. Its main purpose was to boost the chances of Tzipi Livni and Ehud Barak winning the election. Starting an unprovoked war is a war crime and makes these Israeli leaders responsible for the consequences.
That's opinion at best.

The fact that Israel was attacked repeatedly by your hero's gets lost conveniently.



Gaza's Influence on the Israeli Election Campaign
Atlantic Community:Open Think Tank Article "Gaza's Influence on the Israeli Election Campaign"

I can find no evidence of Hamas abducting children at gun point and forcing them to stand in front of them as they exchange fire with IDF. But the UN claims the IDF did this:
Already addressed above.

Regarding teaching children to hate. I'm sure the 11 year old above needs no coaching.
He's 11, he's already well on his way to being a 'martyr'. Wear all the regailia of said 'martyrdom'. An explosive vest. Long before he was touched by Israel's defending itself.

Its true that many Palestinians are hostile toward Israel, the US and Jews. It's also true that sentiment is passed from one generation to the next. It probably has more to do with suffering oppression and injustice for over 60 years, than school curriculum.
It has more to do with Arabs, Muslims in particular being hostile towords the Heebs, period. It's compounded by the fact that your hero's are well steeped and versed in Hitler's ideology. A fact you seem to fail to address/accept, each and everytime I present it to you.

But yes sometimes hate is taught in the classroom. In many cases the teachers don't need to say anything:
And they shouldn't be teaching hate, but thanx for just proving you feel it's ok.

and so on...

CB, do you honestly believe Palestinian children hate Israel only because some of their teachers say bad things about Israel?
Yes, as do Saudi's, Kuwati's and so on. They even have kid's shows to help perpetuate the hate.

I'm sure you'll love them. I'm sure you download them and show them to your kids.
 

CDNBear

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I've still waiting for the Israeli apologists to give me an example of Hamas lying. You still haven't. The onus is on the accuser to prove guilt, not the accused to prove innocence.
Ummm, no the onus is on you. You stated they were trustworthy and honest. You still haven't provided one shred of proof that would stand up in any court in the free world.

And I mean any court in the free world.

Under the strict letter of the law, Hamas would be disqualified by any judiciary, on grounds of bias, and lack of credibility. Period.
Read what I've said. I never said Hamas is 100% honest.
BULLSYTE!
I said I haven't seen a concrete example of Hamas lying. I still haven't despite you guys searching for proof. If I come across an example, I'll even post it.
The proof has been posted, thousands of times eao. We choose to not waste our time, yet again. You have, and will always, dismiss it, gloss it over and justify your side, by qualifying Hamas, the Hezbollah and any other Arab Jihadist groups actions. By focusing on "Israel did this so it's ok for *insert eao's favourite terrorist group of the week here* to attack Israel."

You justify the proven crimes of your hero's, we condemn the proven crimes of Israel.
 

CDNBear

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That's all bullshyte LG...

No credible sourses, it didn't come from one of eao's sanctioned sites...:roll:

BTW LG...Nice post!

I really loved this translation...
“The children of Hamas have used us like targets”

Inhabitants of Gaza accuse militants Muslims: “They prevented us from leaving the houses and they fired from there”

GAZA — “Go away, go away from here! Do you want the Israelis to kill us all? Do you want to see to our children die under the bombs?”

“Take away your arms and missiles!”

These were the calls by many of the inhabitants of the Gaza strip to the militants of Hamas and their allies of the Muslim Jihad. The bravest were organized and had blocked the access doors to their courtyards, nailed planks over the entrances to the buildings, hurriedly blocked staircases up to high flat roofs. But by and large the guerrillas listened to nobody.

Traitors, collaborators of Israel. spies of Fatah, cowards.

The soldiers of the holy war will punish to you. And in any case you will all die, like us. Fighting the Zionist Jews we are all destined for paradise, aren’t you content to die together?

Nice...You gotta love that honest and trustworthy Hamas...

Only a complete asshole would find them honest, trustworthy, or worthy any support at all.
 

earth_as_one

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Which means even you have doubts its authenticity. I'm keeping an open mind. Here are some questions I have about it.

Where was this?

When was this?

Who took the video?

Who is in the video?

To answer those questions I've researched the video. Some people posting copies on the internet claim comes from Reuters.

Captured on Reuters Video

Palestinian Terrorists use a UN Ambulance for cover and transportation. Clearly the driver is one of the terrorists themselves.

Unfortunately, these terrorists often use UN equipment, offices, ambulances, and other UN vehicles for their own terrorist purposes.

This of course would make Israel look bad in the media if it attacked a UN ambulance.

Last week, an Israeli television station aired footage of armed Arab terrorists in southern Gaza using an ambulance owned and operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA). Palestinian gunmen used the UNRWA emergency vehicle as getaway transportation after murdering six Israeli soldiers on May 11. The footage shows two ambulances with flashing lights pull onto a street. Shots and shouts ring out during the nighttime raid. A gang of militants piles into one of the supposedly neutral ambulances, clearly marked "U.N." with the agency's blue flag flying from the roof, which then speeds away from the scene.

AccessMiddleEast.org, a nonprofit global news monitoring service, posted the video (shot by a Reuters TV cameraman) on its Web site last week. (It's available at e.tln0.com/ame/archives/reuters-UN-amblulances-11-may04.wmv). To date, Access Middle East managing director Richard Bardenstein in Israel informs me, not a single U.S. television news station has expressed interest in showing the footage to American viewers.

U.N. Ambulance Used in Mideast Terrorist Attack | Human Events | Find Articles at BNET

If this video came from Reuters, then where is the Reuters copyright? Where is the associated Reuters story? I also doubt that US news services wouldn't carry the video if it was authentic. e.tln0.com isn't exactly a reputable website and I can't even find the video on that website anymore.

I did find these related stories:



Meanwhile I am getting closer to the source:

“A Reuters representative and I sat together... at their Jerusalem bureau to edit down several segments of the longer un-edited material,” writes Dave Bender, Senior Editor of Access Middle East. “The material left out, in order to keep the file size minimal, consisted of random similar scenes of armed and unarmed Palestinians thronging the street seen in the clip. This accounts for the somewhat jumpy cuts. However, nothing relevant has been deleted or distorted from this version,” adds Bender.

Video Depicting Terrorists´ Use of UN Ambulance Released - Defense/Middle East - Israel News - Israel National News

Getting really close:

May 30, 2004
Exclusive video footage: Palestinian gunmen in Gaza exploiting UN ambulance to ferry fighters

UN AMBULANCES CARRY GUNS, NOT PATIENTS
Dave Bender, Senior Editor Access Middle East
dave@a-me.org
Access Middle East Goods

PA smuggling militants & weapons

AME has obtained file footage (taken May 11 in Gaza's Zeitoun district) of
UN ambulances used by Palestinians to safeguard militants and weapons. A
network of fake Palestinian ambulances used to smuggle militants inside
Israel has also been discovered. While PA lawmaker Saeb Erekat denies
accusations, a controversy erupts.

A Reuters representative and I sat together early Friday morning May 8th at
their Jerusalem bureau to edit down several segments of the onger un-edited
material.

The material left out, in order to keep the file size minimal, consisted of
random similar scenes of armed and unarmed Palestinians thronging the street
seen in the clip. This accounts for the somewhat jumpy cuts. However,
nothing relevant has been deleted or distorted from this version.

We welcome comments on this or any other material available at
Access Middle East Goods , and of course, feel free to forward this link.

IMRA - Sunday, May 30, 2004 Exclusive video footage: Palestinian gunmen in Gaza exploiting UN ambulance to ferry fighters

Here is the original source as far as I can tell:
Access Middle East Goods

So I got as far as a reference to an unnamed "Reuters Representative" and Dave Bender, Senior Editor Access Middle East. As far as I can tell, Reuters is not the source of the video, and Access Middle East does not appear to be a news source, but an importer/exporter of middle east goods.

Mr. Bender's email server at " a-me.org " references an unclaimed domain name.

Yes, that video is suspicious as hell.
 

CDNBear

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I'm keeping an open mind.
Yes, that video is suspicious as hell./Yes, that video is suspicious as hell.
It is to us as well, for the same reasons. Even though, (and here's the kicker and main difference between you and us...) it would appear to back up our opinion.

Ya following along? I doubt it.

I must congratulate you though, this is the first time I've ever seen you do any research, other then cut&paste others opinions.

;-)

I still don't believe you have an open mind though...or a mind for that matter. just a combination and conglomeration of other peoples opinions and useless data you parrot and regurgitate ad nauseum.