Anti_Islam protests victory for extremists?

[Just the Facts]

Subjective drivel.

Nevertheless, a growing body of evidence to indicate that that drivel is in fact fact.

There is nothing to build on top of...the security center is being constructed. You want them to wall the construction workers in?

Apparently the Port Authority does, otherwise why would their position suddenly be "they are free to build on the original site" after inexplicably ending negotiations for a land swap?

Read Yukon's link. The parties involved aren't the same. If you think all buildings and construction projects take place on the same time-scale, you're mistaken.

That's not what I think. But I do know that the church claims the port authority suddenly stopped returning calls in the midst of negotiations. That's not a natural variance in "timeline". That's ignoring.

Saying something was fast-tracked means that the committees or permitting process would have been sped up, and there's no indication that this is true.

It's my understanding that that is in fact true. In fact it happened so fast there was a committe member that expressed shock and surprise that the mosque developers didn't even own the site yet. They obviously didn't do any due diligence.

It's just empty rhetoric on your part.

Except it's not just me. :lol:

And no building yet either, in case you weren't aware...

I was aware but thanks for confirming.

 

[mentalfloss]

Ultimately, who is responsible for the feelings of those that are upset over where this building is being built?

The origins of those offended - if they are actually offended legitimately - should be stemming from a terrorist act that occurred in 2001. While these terrorists are essentially responsible for the extreme duress felt by relatives of the victims of that particular act - it is obviously futile to expect that they will make any attempt to rectify the problems that they caused, or alleviate any hardships these people have suffered.

Coincidentally, those offended have somehow constructed this idea that the same people involved in that terrorist act are the ones constructing this building, or that the two factions are somehow deliberately linked, or even that those who will attend events at this site would be linked with those terrorists. Fortunately, the muslim groups who are responsible for the two floors to be constructed as well as those who will be exercising their constitutional right to religion in this building after its construction have nothing to do with those involved in the 9/11 attacks, thereby de-legitimizing any argument - which is believed to be founded in logic at least - by those who are offended.

Once the offended parties can accept that, society can continue to evolve rationally, and stand by the just values of independence, freedom, and peace - all landmark values of the constitution. If instead, those offended get their way and this project is halted or transferred elsewhere.. well, despite the fact that this is sympathetic to their wants and needs, we would be sacrificing these constitutional rights in a fairly blatant and obvious manner.

In other words, it could have a fairly negative effect not only on the state, but also the country and to a lesser extent, other democratic nations.

 

[Goober]

Ultimately, who is responsible for the feelings of those that are upset over where this building is being built?

As i have stated - This is a stunt to create division - Pure PR by those that want division - we know what that particular Imam stands for - As to feelings - who knows - There is more than enough blame & hate caused by this to go around -

Look to a local Muslim community who were told explicitly by community leaders TO NOT cooperate with the Police who arrested the alleged bombers last week - Now that creates an indelible impression for average Canadians - Local Muslim leaders instructing community members to assist in hiding any evidence of guilt.To become and remain separate from the community - to not support the rule of law -to protect future wackos from the Police - All of this is against the Quran

How else could you look at it - Well you could be like that Imam in Toronto -Al Hindy ( named is from memory)- who stated the Toronto 18 were only boys being boys, nothing to worry about.

Really - Those are the types that create problems within their own community - They are the ones that threaten and intimidate Muslims that do not toe the line within the Mosque. And yes I have Muslim friends who have been threatened and the same with their families back in Africa.

 

[Tonington]

Nevertheless, a growing body of evidence to indicate that that drivel is in fact fact.

Such as?

Apparently the Port Authority does, otherwise why would their position suddenly be "they are free to build on the original site" after inexplicably ending negotiations for a land swap?

The Port Authority didn't say that. The end of the article lays out the options:

"Whether the church gets the Liberty Street land or returns to its original sliver of property, rebuilding will have to wait at least three years while the vehicle security center is built underground. "

The land swap hasn't been agreed to, and there is construction of the vehicle security center is taking place.

The parties have to agree before anything can take place, and this has nothing to do with the facility planned for 51 Park place, as the President of the St. Nicholas Parish Council made very clear.

That's not what I think. But I do know that the church claims the port authority suddenly stopped returning calls in the midst of negotiations. That's not a natural variance in "timeline". That's ignoring.

Sometimes negotiations change. The corporation I work for was in negotiations with the federal government, and they suddenly stopped returning our calls as well. Priorities change. We deal with it. The St. Nicholas Parish will deal with it.

It's my understanding that that is in fact true. In fact it happened so fast there was a committe member that expressed shock and surprise that the mosque developers didn't even own the site yet. They obviously didn't do any due diligence.

Due diligence is making sure you have a green light before you proceed.

I doubt you're stupid enough to buy a piece of land with an intended purpose before you know if it will be permissible to build what you intend for the land.

Except it's not just me. :lol:

No, it isn't. There's a whole bunch of nosey busy-bodies getting their knickers all twisted up over what someone else is legitimately doing.

 

[gerryh]

As i have stated - This is a stunt to create division - Pure PR by those that want division - we know what that particular Imam stands for - As to feelings - who knows - There is more than enough blame & hate caused by this to go around -

Look to a local Muslim community who were told explicitly by community leaders TO NOT cooperate with the Police who arrested the alleged bombers last week - Now that creates an indelible impression for average Canadians - Local Muslim leaders instructing community members to assist in hiding any evidence of guilt.To become and remain separate from the community - to not support the rule of law -to protect future wackos from the Police - All of this is against the Quran

How else could you look at it - Well you could be like that Imam in Toronto -Al Hindy ( named is from memory)- who stated the Toronto 18 were only boys being boys, nothing to worry about.

Really - Those are the types that create problems within their own community - They are the ones that threaten and intimidate Muslims that do not toe the line within the Mosque. And yes I have Muslim friends who have been threatened and the same with their families back in Africa.

Didn't answer the question. Actually, after re reading I see you did, in your own weak way. The person that is responsible would be the individual with the feelings. It's called owning and being responsible for yourself as opposed to blaming someone or something else.

 

[Goober]

Didn't answer the question.

Clarify feelings???????

Feeling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dealing With Feelings

List of Feeling Words

Types of Emotions and Feelings

That should keep you busy - ask a clear question - I do not feel like Mind Games - OK

 

[Just the Facts]

Such as?

lol Zoolander all over again. Start by re-reading this thread, then take it from there.

The Port Authority didn't say that. The end of the article lays out the options:

Apparently they did. There's more than one article. :lol:

The land swap hasn't been agreed to

Of course not. The Port Authority put St. Nick's on ignore.

Sometimes negotiations change. The corporation I work for was in negotiations with the federal government, and they suddenly stopped returning our calls as well. Priorities change. We deal with it. The St. Nicholas Parish will deal with it.

Certainly.

Due diligence is making sure you have a green light before you proceed.

I doubt you're stupid enough to buy a piece of land with an intended purpose before you know if it will be permissible to build what you intend for the land.

It happens all the time. But I suppose buying half the land is much smarter. :lol:

No, it isn't. There's a whole bunch of nosey busy-bodies getting their knickers all twisted up over what someone else is legitimately doing.

Yup. Like 65% of Americans lol. Sheesh, damn Americans thinking they should have any input into America. Despite the outrage, no one disagrees that there is a right to build the mosque. Too bad Comedy Central didn't get the same consideration.

 

[earth_as_one]

These people aren't thinking. They are reacting to manipulative anger, fear and hate based propaganda.

The majority of people trying to build this community center are law abiding citizens and patriotic Americans. If any of them were connected to the events of 9/11, they'd have been arrested by now. If the majority had their way, they would limit the religious rights and freedoms of a minority in violation of US Constitution.

I doubt few people pushing this intolerant hate based agenda care about individual rights and freedoms as they claim. If they did, they'd be defending people's rights, not trying to take them away. What they care about are ratings (right wing pundits) and winning an election (right wing politicians).

This non-issue will return to being a non-issue after the fall elections. In the meantime, a majority of Americans and many people on this forum have exposed themselves as easily manipulated, religiously intolerant bigots.

 

[Goober]

These people aren't thinking. They are reacting to manipulative anger, fear and hate based propaganda.

The majority of people trying to build this community center are law abiding citizens and patriotic Americans. If any of them were connected to the events of 9/11, they'd have been arrested by now. If the majority had their way, they would limit the religious rights and freedoms of a minority in violation of US Constitution.

I doubt few people pushing this intolerant hate based agenda care about individual rights and freedoms as they claim. If they did, they'd be defending people's rights, not trying to take them away. What they care about are ratings (right wing pundits) and winning an election (right wing politicians).

This non-issue will return to being a non-issue after the fall elections. In the meantime, a majority of Americans and many people on this forum have exposed themselves as easily manipulated, religiously intolerant bigots.

Really - Bigots - No I do not think so

You do not understand the US attitude when it comes to atrocities such as 911, battlefields from the Civil War etc. As is often said " Sacred Ground" but you find that when it comes to Americans as one way to discriminate - But if it was another group, like Hamas, Hezbollah then it is a horse of another color now isn't it.

But this thread has brought out the same dupes threads like this do.

Now that Imam does not condemn Hamas or Hezbollah - both listed by many - FREE & democratic Govts as terror orgs.

So it is again easy to see how your hatred toward the US combined with your support of these 2 groups makes this a thread for dupes like yourself to pop into and spout away.

 

[mentalfloss]

Really - Bigots - No I do not think so

You do not understand the US attitude when it comes to atrocities such as 911, battlefields from the Civil War etc. As is often said " Sacred Ground" but you find that when it comes to Americans as one way to discriminate - But if it was another group, like Hamas, Hezbollah then it is a horse of another color now isn't it.

Bigot insults aside.. The argument against the mosque just doesn't hold up. Whether you are looking at it from a sensitivity perspective, some sort of creeping sharia, a few out-of-context quotes from the Imam, or if you are citing similar incidents as justification. None of these angles provide any legitimate rationale for stopping this from taking fruition.

But this thread has brought out the same dupes threads like this do.

Now that Imam does not condemn Hamas or Hezbollah - both listed by many - FREE & democratic Govts as terror orgs.

So it is again easy to see how your hatred toward the US combined with your support of these 2 groups makes this a thread for dupes like yourself to pop into and spout away.

None of that really makes any sense, at least if you are trying to be unbiased about it. This decision poses no real support for any terrorist organization, nor does it justify any hatred toward the U.S. This attitude is just feeble-minded - everyone who supports the mosque/community center/2-floor worship zone shares the same sentiment against terrorism and is promoting the founding democratic principles of the U.S.

 

[TenPenny]

- everyone who supports the mosque/community center/2-floor worship zone shares the same sentiment against terrorism and is promoting the founding democratic principles of the U.S.

Wow. Everyone. Every single person supporting this mosque. I'm amazed that you had time to interview every single person in support of this.

Good work, though. You're to be commended. I'd give you a blue robin sticker, if I was sure that you wouldn't be offended by it.

 

[mentalfloss]

Wow. Everyone. Every single person supporting this mosque. I'm amazed that you had time to interview every single person in support of this.

Good work, though. You're to be commended. I'd give you a blue robin sticker, if I was sure that you wouldn't be offended by it.

Ah, sorry, I forgot to insert: "for a valid reason" in there. I thought it was pretty obvious I wasn't referring to anyone who was under the false belief that this would somehow induce islamic terrorism or 'creeping sharia'. Feel free to find out what percentage of the supporting population that is and subtract that from 100% to put your mind at ease.

 

[DaSleeper]

So the construction of that mosque goes on schedule and it gets built......
Let's suppose that this project gets seen in various countries as a victory mosque and used recruiting tool for more martyrs for the cause....what then...just asking.
It's then too late to do anything......

 

[mentalfloss]

So the construction of that mosque goes on schedule and it gets built......
Let's suppose that this project gets seen in various countries as a victory mosque and used recruiting tool for more martyrs for the cause....what then...just asking.
It's then too late to do anything......

Any serious claim would need substantial evidence - just as it has been, and just as it always should be. Once they can't come up with it, it ceases to be a victory mosque except for the victory it brings in diplomatic consensus. Any nations that seriously believe otherwise will be under considerable scrutiny unless they can justify those beliefs.

You need to look a bit further than the immediate reactions of those with dissenting opinions. The more we reward their ignorance, the deeper we dig this grave.

 

[DaSleeper]

I do not disagree as to the legality of the situation and a few members of a religion is not an example of the whole religion, but there are enough red flags to proceed with caution and ask a lot of questions..
There is an old french proverb that says "L'Habit ne fait pas le moine" and somehow I feel that it could very well apply to that Imam;-)

 

[earth_as_one]

When people allow prejudice, hate, fear, patriotism, superiority based propaganda to influence their decision making over what is fair and just, they are headed down a very slippery slope. What we are really talking about here is restricting personal freedoms based on person's religion. If political opportunists and right wing pundits succeed in banning this mosque, they will have succeeded in punishing many innocent people, the majority of whom are our allies, not enemies.

Punishing these people for the events of 9/11 is not only unjust, its also unwise. These people are our eyes and ears into the Muslim community.

Example:

Mubin Shaikh was one of two informants (technically, Confidential Human Source) for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) in the 2006 Toronto Terrorism case, and moved on to become a paid Royal Canadian Mounted Police agent....
Mubin Shaikh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who do you think translates Arabic intelligence?

July 28, 2009: Three years ago, the United States military needed 7,200 Arabic and 750 Afghan (Pushtu or Dari) linguists. That's nearly twenty percent more than were needed the previous year. But now, the need for Arabic translators has plummeted, and the demand for Afghan ones has more than tripled. But there are only about 8,000 Pushto speakers in the United States. And most of them are women and children, or elderly men. As rare as Arab speakers are in the United States, they were far more abundant than Pushto ones.

Even annual salaries of over $200,000 are not enough to fill the need...
Intelligence: Translator Shortage Gets Worse

Those of you who are against this Mosque are really against Muslims having the same rights and freedoms as everyone else and are effectively against the Americans who would most likely fill these jobs:

us government intelligence arabic Jobs - Browse Keywords | Juju Job Search

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Maybe those of you who support making Muslims second class American citizens can explain why these people should help the US government rather than the enemies of the US government? How do you think Muslims feel when they see thousands of fellow Americans protesting against their religious rights and freedoms or listen to the hate propaganda spewing from the mouths of so many right wing pundits and politicians? How would the American government denying these citizens their rights result in them being more loyal to the American government?

BTW, Hitler and Goebels also used prejudice, hate, fear, patriotism, superiority based propaganda to gain the support of a majority of Germans in unjustly taking away rights and freedoms from minorities...

 

[ironsides]

So, are you saying that you would support this Islamic centre if it were funded by American Moslems?

No, not under any circumstances. At least not until the memorial to the 9/11 victims is built. Other alternatives could be: Saudia Arabia allows churches and temples to be built in Mecca, or we actually find out what or how Muslim nations plan to do to stop terrorist attacks in the world. Right now, they just standby and watch, yes there are or course individual Muslims trying to stop terrorism, but no other Arab countries are united against it as we are. In answer to your question, again no we have given enough to this world, let others sort it out. No more being the sucker.


PS: There have been cases of American Mosques being training grounds to recruit your men to fight.

 

[Goober]

Bigot insults aside.. The argument against the mosque just doesn't hold up. Whether you are looking at it from a sensitivity perspective, some sort of creeping sharia, a few out-of-context quotes from the Imam, or if you are citing similar incidents as justification. None of these angles provide any legitimate rationale for stopping this from taking fruition.



None of that really makes any sense, at least if you are trying to be unbiased about it. This decision poses no real support for any terrorist organization, nor does it justify any hatred toward the U.S. This attitude is just feeble-minded - everyone who supports the mosque/community center/2-floor worship zone shares the same sentiment against terrorism and is promoting the founding democratic principles of the U.S.

Until you add in, not hate, not anger, not a problem with Mosques -

Add in the US average Joe Blows attitude towards certain areas in the Country where momentous, life and country changing events occurred. Then the equation changes. Until you can understand that perspective you only understand part of why there is an uproar by average citizens -
And I am not referring to the Glen Beck, Nazi's under every bed syndrome, but the average working person.

As I stated before and will again.

Just because you have a right does not necessarily make it the right thing to do.

Can you see that as a legitimate point?

 

[ironsides]

When people allow prejudice, hate, fear, patriotism, superiority based propaganda to influence their decision making over what is fair and just, they are headed down a very slippery slope. What we are really talking about here is restricting personal freedoms based on person's religion. If political opportunists and right wing pundits succeed in banning this mosque, they will have succeeded in punishing many innocent people, the majority of whom are our allies, not enemies.

Punishing these people for the events of 9/11 is not only unjust, its also unwise. These people are our eyes and ears into the Muslim community.

Example:
Who do you think translates Arabic intelligence?
Those of you who are against this Mosque are really against Muslims having the same rights and freedoms as everyone else and are effectively against the Americans who would most likely fill these jobs:

Maybe those of you who support making Muslims second class American citizens can explain why these people should help the US government rather than the enemies of the US government? How do you think Muslims feel when they see thousands of fellow Americans protesting against their religious rights and freedoms or listen to the hate propaganda spewing from the mouths of so many right wing pundits and politicians? How would the American government denying these citizens their rights result in them being more loyal to the American government?

BTW, Hitler and Goebels also used prejudice, hate, fear, patriotism, superiority based propaganda to gain the support of a majority of Germans in unjustly taking away rights and freedoms from minorities...

Your analogy is again wrong, I am not against a Mosque being built, just not at the 9/11 site. Someday in the future maybe, but the wounds are to recent and yes I do think it would be a symbol of victory and a trophy for those who hate and fight against this country. Not to mention the further division this proposal will cause.

 

[earth_as_one]

Your analogy is again wrong, I am not against a Mosque being built, just not at the 9/11 site. Someday in the future maybe, but the wounds are to recent and yes I do think it would be a symbol of victory and a trophy for those who hate and fight against this country. Not to mention the further division this proposal will cause.

Its not an analogy.

You support restricting the rights and freedoms of fellow American citizens.

You have allowed irrational fear, hate and prejudice based propaganda to cloud your judgment.

This non-issue turned into a hate fest has nothing to do with 9/11 and everything to do with ratings and political opportunism.

The American citizens who want to build this Mosque had nothing to do with the events of 9/11. Yet they are being punished for being Muslim. This Mosque would be just the first step. Once the precedent has been set, it opens the door for future restrictions on the rights and freedoms of American Muslims.

You want an analogy? Restricting people's rights based on their religion is just like restricting rights based on race and skin color. Either all Americans share the same rights and freedoms or they don't.

The proposal to build this community center didn't cause a division between Muslim and non-Muslim Americans. The efforts to restrict American rights and freedoms based on religion caused the division. It was the right wing pundits and political opportunists that identified this building as being different from other religious buildings. The Americans building this community center never referred to it as a trophy or symbol of victory. Those terms come directly from the hate mongers, not their victims.

BTW, I'm not surprised at how easily a majority of people can be manipulated by hate propaganda.