Abortion -The poll is not based upon Religious belief - It is based ethics

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  • Total voters
    25

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Tonington;1923692 Making reference to tumors said:
Scientists and doctors aren't immune from making bad arguments[/B].


Many people don't have the balls to buck the popular thinking trends! A lot more people thought the world was round than they originally let on! -:)

How far back do you want to go? The sperm and the egg didn't come out of thing air you know.

Your embryonic period period started when the egg was fertilized. You are not a fetus until around 10 weeks after that.

At what point you could actually be considered an independent person has been a matter of debate for a long long time.


You can f**k with semantics all you like but it doesn't change the facts of what actually happens! -:)
 

BornRuff

Time Out
Nov 17, 2013
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Well, I have news for you buddy. The most populous race on earth gives credit for a year of life before birth. I guess they figure the time they've already put in is worth about time and 1/3.
Celebrating Chinese Birthdays (Traditions and Taboos)


(I figure it's about time to steer this wretched thread in another direction) -:)

What does that really mean for this discussion? Why would Chinese custom prove anything?

You can f**k with semantics all you like but it doesn't change the facts of what actually happens! -:)

We never disagreed on the physical process of how babies are made. The question is when they can be considered an independent person.

What is your answer about the eggs and sperm? Why not count back to when they were made? You can't have you without that sperm and that egg.
 

JLM

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What does that really mean for this discussion? Why would Chinese custom prove anything?


Well, you've no doubt heard the old expression "40 million Frenchmen can't be wrong", well I would extend it to "One and a quarter billion Chinamen can't be wrong"! -:)

What is your answer about the eggs and sperm? Why not count back to when they were made? You can't have you without that sperm and that egg.


I don't have too much difficulty with that theory- makes much more sense than life miraculously starting the minute the kid leaves the womb.
 

BornRuff

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Nov 17, 2013
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I don't have too much difficulty with that theory- makes much more sense than life miraculously starting the minute the kid leaves the womb.

So then masturbation or use of a condom would essentially be genocide, wouldn't it?
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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So then masturbation or use of a condom would essentially be genocide, wouldn't it?


Sure, but it's only semantics! Maybe not, it might be viewed in the same vein as the doctor who doesn't do anything to extend life in a dying person, which is very lawful.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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How far back do you want to go? The sperm and the egg didn't come out of thing air you know.

Yes, and they're haploid, I'm diploid with my own set of genes...the point is if you go back far enough you get to a point where there is no Tonington. How does it matter what stage of my life it is? It's still my life and we all start out in the same fashion. It doesn't matter if I'm dependent on my mother, I still was after birth like all of the rest of humanity. It's actually quite some time after birth before a human can conceivably fend for their self.

The abortion topic is principally a legal and ethical topic. Biology is a part of it, but ultimately not the most important part.

At what point you could actually be considered an independent person has been a matter of debate for a long long time.

I never said anything about an independent person, and in fact I could be a dependent person in adulthood. I said in not so many words that the creation of me has a cause. The universe is cause and effect. It's a fools game to argue this point.

So then masturbation or use of a condom would essentially be genocide, wouldn't it?

When was a human ever defined as having 23 chromosomes?
 

BornRuff

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Nov 17, 2013
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Yes, and they're haploid, I'm diploid with my own set of genes...the point is if you go back far enough you get to a point where there is no Tonington. How does it matter what stage of my life it is? It's still my life and we all start out in the same fashion. It doesn't matter if I'm dependent on my mother, I still was after birth like all of the rest of humanity. It's actually quite some time after birth before a human can conceivably fend for their self.

The abortion topic is principally a legal and ethical topic. Biology is a part of it, but ultimately not the most important part.

Again, nobody has ever disagreed on the basic biological steps.

The debate is about at what point your "life" beings, as in your life as an independent being, not something that is a just a part of another thing.

I never said anything about an independent person, and in fact I could be a dependent person in adulthood. I said in not so many words that the creation of me has a cause. The universe is cause and effect. It's a fools game to argue this point.

In this case, I am using independent to mean separate. Even if you are an adult that depends on others to survive, you are still independent in the sense that you are a separate being, not part of anyone else.

An embryo or non viable fetus has a very different kind of dependence on the mother. It simply can't exist separately from that specific woman. A child can exist separately from any specific person.

When was a human ever defined as having 23 chromosomes?

When is having 46 chromosomes the definition of being human?

If that was the case, we would have some pretty funny looking humans.



 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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The rules of logic can apply. My billions of cells didn't spontaneously come from nothing...my existance started when two haploid cells joined and became one diploid cell. That was the creation of me, an individual. That is what fertilization achieves biologically, a new individual. It didn't happen at any time before or after that. Obviously much has to happen along the way developmentally, but that doesn't negate the fact that it took a sperm from my father joining with an egg from my mother to produce this individual.

Making reference to tumors, or parasites, or some specific type of tissue grown with biotechnology is a really bad argument. Scientists and doctors aren't immune from making bad arguments.
I could have bet that your logical argument would have been lost on the usual suspects....
It's not the first time that people use word semantics to defend a bad behavior....
I'm thinking of Clinton and the meaning of the word "is" :lol:
and I would have won that bet with myself...........................


And now to watch him dance around this statement........
An embryo or non viable fetus has a very different kind of dependence on the mother. It simply can't exist separately from that specific woman. A child can exist separately from any specific person.
And explain Embryo Tansfer










Without forgetting that the last word is all important.............to him.:lol:
 
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Are you saying Dr Who could use the retardis to transplant an embryo into Queen E 1 to give her an heir?

He'll ignore it like the laws in some jurisdictions giving it legal status and rights of a person/human from conception forward.
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
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From a doc channel:

"http://documentaryaddict.com/Conceived+in+Rape+and+Other+Exceptions-12232-doc.html

Splains how some women had babies who were conceived by rape and incest, bore them to term, and raised them. Happy
Splains how some women aborted and are sad.

Interesting doc. Probably funded by the religious right.

Hoonose.?

Hoo gives a fukk.?

Follow your conscience.

Friend of ours daughter became pregnant through incest. With her parents help, she had and raised the child. Now a successful young lady, university grad.

Pro choice that I am, especially when the life of the fetus or mother is at risk, sometimes ya gotta go forward and hope for the best. Usually things work out. We would have supported our daughter whatever...........if. And "if" didn't happen. We and she are lucky.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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I love Petros, don't get me wrong, but his posting style is free-association. You spent most of your time figuring out what the hell he's saying.

I enjoy making people think.

Pro choice that I am, especially when the life of the fetus or mother is at risk, sometimes ya gotta go forward and hope for the best.
I'd call that no choice.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Again, nobody has ever disagreed on the basic biological steps.

The debate is about at what point your "life" beings, as in your life as an independent being, not something that is a just a part of another thing.

Independence is irrelevant. If the embryo was just a part of another thing like the say, the mother, it wouldn't be so clearly different biologically.

In this case, I am using independent to mean separate. Even if you are an adult that depends on others to survive, you are still independent in the sense that you are a separate being, not part of anyone else.

Again, it's irrelevant. If something happened during my development inside the womb, it wouldn't matter that you call me a separate individual after birth. That development is part of my life. It can have very profound impacts on my life and none on that of my mother.

An embryo or non viable fetus has a very different kind of dependence on the mother. It simply can't exist separately from that specific woman.

IVF embryos exist outside of mothers. They are grown for days without the environment of a specific woman, and they can even be transplanted into new women. And even if they couldn't, so what? That's the evolutionary path our species has taken. Every human in existence started out in the same fashion, that's part of the biological development for our species. Other species lay eggs, but the embryo is still a new individual.

When is having 46 chromosomes the definition of being human?

It's one defining characteristic. There's no human on earth alive with only 23 chromosomes. You going back to sperm and egg is too far to consider my life beginning. Even more to the point, my life began with a specific sperm and egg.

Let's go over some basic facts. The genetic assortment that occurs after fertilization makes a new genome. The cells begin dividing, and forming layers that will later develop into specific tissues. The cells are metabolically active, with many important biochemical pathways. The pathways in the embryo are different from those of the mother, they need to be for development to continue in that environment. If those biochemical pathways are interrupted, the cells can die. It has unique biological rhythms which can be measured.

It's living tissue (required for a human), it's a new genetic assortment (required to differentiate from the mother), it has unique biological rhythms to that of the mother (also required for a different individual), it has it's own organs (a requirement) and it can be killed (ending the life of the new human). Clearly that's a new individual.

The really odd thing, is that none of this matters. I'm still pro-choice, because I don't believe that I should be able to tell someone else what to do with their life and body. I think I should be able to end my life if I want. I think IVF is great for couples who can't get pregnant in the conventional fashion, even if it means embryos will be destroyed, or used for research. And the fact that I think life begins when there is clearly living tissue and a new genetic assortment has sweet Ƒuck all to do with what I think about abortion. My views are closer to Colpy's perhaps, which as you and others have already mentioned, is pretty much on par with what the various provincial Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons already have in their codes of practice.
 

JamesBondo

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Mar 3, 2012
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Strange as it may sound, I'm personally anti-abortion but will agree that some legalization of abortions is better than none.

With that said, I do wish that more people would feel that 43 abortions for every 100 live births is a strong indicator that Canadians are dispicable narcicists that have totally abused the legality of abortions. I suspect that a large portion of women in the system are NOT incest/rape victims, and they do not have emotional , or other medical problems.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Strange as it may sound, I'm personally anti-abortion but will agree that some legalization of abortions is better than none.

With that said, I do wish that more people would feel that 43 abortions for every 100 live births is a strong indicator that Canadians are dispicable narcicists that have totally abused the legality of abortions. I suspect that a large portion of women in the system are NOT incest/rape victims, and they do not have emotional , or other medical problems.


I would never have suspected that the ratio is that high but if it is, there is something radically wrong with the mentality in this country! On second thought could that figure be a misprint and is actually 1000 live births?
 

JamesBondo

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Mar 3, 2012
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Can't say for certain cuz i've been quoting the stats can number from memory since 2001ish when CBC hosted a forum. However, if it is half that, my suspicions would remain the same.
 

Spade

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Nov 18, 2008
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"The abortion rate in Canada is between 12 and 16 per 1000 women of child bearing age. That is fairly low compared to other developed countries."

"Over 90% of abortions in Canada are done in the first trimester, only 2-3% are done after 16 weeks, and no doctor performs abortions past 20 or 21 weeks unless there are compelling health or genetic reasons. The risk of maternal mortality is probably greater in carrying a pregnancy to term (7.06 per 100 000 live births) than the risk associated with abortion (0.56 per 100 000 terminations) (Grimes D. Am J Obstet Gynecol 2006; 194: 92-94)."
- University of Ottawa article