Nature, Nurture, or Choice?

[Cliffy]

Yet you say "there are many ways to salvation". Why would there be many ways or even one narrow way to salvation if there was no need for it?

As usual your rationale is irrational. I never said people need salvation. Salvation is for those who think they need it.

That doesn't matter. Not all viewpoints and beliefs are valid, in fact only one viewpoint is - the correct one.

And that is being a self righteous prick because it is simply not true. Only in your black and white world does it make sense. The rest of us live in a technicolour world.

No I wouldn't! People can preach any message they want! It's actually imperative that everyone is free to share whatever faith they want, because that way Christians are also free to express their faith.

Have I ever written that we should "get medieval" on their asses? No. I'm just not willing to appease their political agenda, nor am I willing to tolerate their widespread violence.

Not in those exact words but I like that expression.

And is that I why I should only see it your way?

Thinking that your beliefs are the only true beliefs and everybody else is wrong is being self righteous. Telling someone that is being a self righteous prick.

I may have hinted at some of what I believe, but I have never told anyone enough to even get near to understanding it. I have never preached what I believe to anyone. My beliefs are personal and I recognize that the vast majority would not have a clue what I was talking about and I certainly don't expect anyone to share them. My beliefs are only relevant to me, as I have said several times before.

I am not questioning your beliefs. I am pointing out that you are being self righteous by telling others they are wrong. That is about being judgmental and has nothing to do with your religious beliefs. But, you claim to believe what the bible says and the bible says many things that you go against and "judge not lest ye shall be judged" and "let the one who has not sinned cast the first stone" are the two that I am pointing out to you. But you are so self righteous that you think I am attacking your beliefs instead of your actions.

Have you ever told a lie?

You have to believe n sin in order to be a sinner. I know it is a very difficult concept for you to grasp, but if you don't believe in sin, you can't sin.

 

[Serryah]

First remember that regardless of my viewpoint I can't stop people from engaging in homosexual behavior, their sin is between God and them. They have free will and can act upon their feelings. As for what right I have to dictate to anyone who is gay, I have just as much right to it as my right to tell heterosexuals that their pre-martial sex is sinful, or just as much right as you would have to disapprove of your teenage daughter being promiscuous, or someone abusing a child, or any other action that one feels is wrong.

Well first off, it's only a sin because you say it is, that doesn't mean it really is. And please don't bring up your version of God's word on it, I don't believe in them, thus that argument is null and void.

Second, you have a point; you do have the right to tell people what you think is wrong for them to do. And those same people have ever right to tell you to Flockoff or whatever else, so long as it does not harm you in any way. At the same time, that you preach to people what is "wrong" in their life - especially about something so close and personal and so controversial and, sometimes, confusing - can cause great harm, to the point of someone taking their life. For people like you, who tell gays "You're sinning against God, you're going to Hell" (and I don't know if you say this last part, but most Believers do have that opinion), do you (again, collective, not you specifically) not realize that your words are driving kids to suicide?

If you realize it, they why do you continue it? Why, why, why must who a person has sex with be your obsession? Why is sex period your obsession?

And THAT is where you do NOT have the right to say to me or anyone that's not Het "your life is wrong". When your words drive people to the point where death is an answer, IMO, you're an accessory to that Suicide and you are just as damned to Hell as the person you condemned.

 

[In Between Man]

As usual your rationale is irrational. I never said people need salvation. Salvation is for those who think they need it.

Once again you think it all comes down to how people feel and what they think. It has nothing to due with feelings or thoughts, we need salvation regardless if believe it or not. People who need it but don't believe so are like blind people walking to the edge of a deadly cliff. Some of us are trying to warn you to no avail!

And that is being a self righteous prick because it is simply not true. Only in your black and white world does it make sense. The rest of us live in a technicolour world.

Notice the hypocrisy of your camp. Which stripe on your technicolor flag (that's suppose to mean DIVERSITY and TOLERANCE) represents Jesus Christ being the ONLY way, the truth and the life? It's not represented on your hypocritical flag. That's because the truth is unpopular and people want to justify their sinful behavior instead of feeling the weight (shame) of their sin.

the bible says many things that you go against and "judge not lest ye shall be judged"

That doesn't mean never judge. You misconstrue what it says. It's referring to hypocrisy. If I confronted someone with their homosexual sin when I myself are participating in homosexual behavior (or sinful heterosexual behavior) I would obviously be a hypocrite and I would feel the weight of my own sin if I was to be judged as well.

and "let the one who has not sinned cast the first stone" are the two that I am pointing out to you.

You know that when Jesus said that it was because the religious leaders wanted to LITERALLY stone a woman accused of adultery? Context Cliffy. There's a world of difference between using words to communicate to someone that they're breaking God's law (judgment) and using violence (condemnation) for breaking God's law. There not the same thing.

You have to believe n sin in order to be a sinner. I know it is a very difficult concept for you to grasp, but if you don't believe in sin, you can't sin.

Man, you just didn't drink from the cup of moral relativism, you slammed the whole bottle!

So Cliffy, if I believe after I die I become God almighty himself with all the omniscience that comes with it, will it come to pass? Is that all it takes? Whatever you believe, so be it? Seems rather convenient not to mention illogical and irrational!

 

[petros]

Hetero sex is a sin too.

 

[In Between Man]

Hetero sex is a sin too.

If it's outside the covenant of marriage it is.

 

[petros]

Nope. Lust is sin. So your kids are born in sin.

 

[Serryah]

Once again you think it all comes down to how people feel and what they think. It has nothing to due with feelings or thoughts, we need salvation regardless if believe it or not. People who need it but don't believe so are like blind people walking to the edge of a deadly cliff. Some of us are trying to warn you to no avail!

We need salvation? Why? Salvation from whom or what? And who should give us this Salvation? There are other Gods, other Beliefs, in the world; who's to say they aren't as right as yours?

See where this is going? Just because what you believe is truth for you, doesn't mean it's so for others.

Notice the hypocrisy of your camp. Which stripe on your technicolor flag (that's suppose to mean DIVERSITY and TOLERANCE) represents Jesus Christ being the ONLY way, the truth and the life? It's not represented on your hypocritical flag. That's because the truth is unpopular and people want to justify their sinful behavior instead of feeling the weight (shame) of their sin.

First, IMO I would think Jesus would be all colors (if I believed that Jesus was God) and not any one single color. So therefore, the Tolerance of the flag would be Jesus.

Truth is subjective; what's true for you isn't for me. And I feel no shame in loving someone of the same sex, or opposite sex for that matter. Most other gays don't feel the shame either, although the religious types have tried to force them to feel shame all their lives. And look what it's done? Teen suicides, people forcing themselves into marriages that are based on lies (a Sin, I would think) and harming everyone involved, including any children of such a union.

How is that not "Wrong"; how is that not more wrong than who someone takes to bed with them?

 

[In Between Man]

Well first off, it's only a sin because you say it is, that doesn't mean it really is. And please don't bring up your version of God's word on it, I don't believe in them, thus that argument is null and void.

Of course. That's the M.O. of the Godless. You want to remain that way so you keep your mind closed and your heart hardened to God and what his word says. Making my argument "null and void" (in your mind only) helps to justify your sinful behavior.

For people like you, who tell gays "You're sinning against God, you're going to Hell" (and I don't know if you say this last part, but most Believers do have that opinion), do you (again, collective, not you specifically) not realize that your words are driving kids to suicide?

Be careful, because you're accusing me of something I don't do. I don't condemn people to hell because I don't know what the future holds for them. That's not to say I would necessarily rebuke a Christian for doing so, because the fact remains that unless an unsaved person realizes their sin and converts they are truly on a path to hell.

Christians aren't responsible for "driving kids to suicide". That's a lie. Man's adversary and his demonic forces are responsible for planting the thoughts of suicide. Christians are actually doing the opposite by pointing to the only door that when walked through will free them from their bondage.

If you realize it, they why do you continue it? Why, why, why must who a person has sex with be your obsession? Why is sex period your obsession?

I'm not obsessed and I don't why you would think so, you don't even know me! There's more important things to focus on instead of one particular sin.

IMO, you're an accessory to that Suicide and you are just as damned to Hell as the person you condemned.

Even if I was an accessory to suicide, I would still not be condemned to hell. Once saved, alwayz saved. You can't lose your salvation.

We need salvation? Why?

Because otherwise you'll spend eternity in hell.

Salvation from whom or what?

HELL!

And who should give us this Salvation?

God.

There are other Gods, other Beliefs, in the world; who's to say they aren't as right as yours?

How can there be a god just as "right" as mine? Two infinite, omniscient Gods side by side? That makes no sense, and that's one of the reasons why I know truth is not subjective. Either God exists or he doesn't. And the other "gods" don't matter because when you compare all the religions you'll discover that Christianity is unique, philosophically valid, and logically possible.

Truth is subjective

No it is not. Truth is absolute. Something is either true or it is not. It has nothing to do with how you feel or what you think.

 

[Serryah]

Of course. That's the M.O. of the Godless. You want to remain that way so you keep your mind closed and your heart hardened to God and what his word says. Making my argument "null and void" (in your mind only) helps to justify your sinful behavior.

Just because I do not believe in your version of God, doesn't make me "Godless". That said, there are some - a few - good things that have come of your version of God that I do respect/admire. My mind is not closed, nor is my heart hardened. And as for sinful behavior; seeing as I have no current partner of the same sex, in this context, I'm not sinning, am I.

Be careful, because you're accusing me of something I don't do. I don't condemn people to hell because I don't know what the future holds for them. That's not to say I would necessarily rebuke a Christian for doing so, because the fact remains that unless an unsaved person realizes their sin and converts they are truly on a path to hell.

I think, if you re-read that, you'll note that I was not saying YOU are doing these things, but a collective you. Others who claim to be Christian, condemn people to hell. Others who claim to be Christians repeatedly tell gays they'll burn for their "sinful" ways, even if they haven't even "sinned" yet. Others who claim to be Christians will even bully and beat up gay kids, all because their version of God has said they're going to hell, and thus they're not worthy of human decency or respect.

Or are these people not Christians?

Christians aren't responsible for "driving kids to suicide". That's a lie. Man's adversary and his demonic forces are responsible for planting the thoughts of suicide. Christians are actually doing the opposite by pointing to the only door that when walked through will free them from their bondage.

Oh like **** they aren't. You get Christians repeatedly, continually, day after day after day saying "You're going to hell! You'll burn forever!" to a young kid and soon enough he'll believe that horse****. And then, already emotionally unstable because they know they're gay but now they think they're going to some place of pain and suffering for the rest of their afterlife, they figure what's the bloody point of being alive now, so they suicide. It's emotional and spiritual abuse, emotional and spiritual torture that Christians are doing to these kids and some of them, sadly, can't handle it. So yes, yes they are responsible. Deny it all you want, but that is truth.

I'm not obsessed and I don't why you would think so, you don't even know me! There's more important things to focus on instead of one particular sin.

Even if I was an accessory to suicide, I would still not be condemned to hell. Once saved, alwayz saved. You can't lose your salvation.

Again, collective you; do you know what that means? It means people who think like you, not you necessarily. You're right, I don't know you, which is why that is a collective you.

And that last line is a crock of BS. Otherwise Christians would stop badgering those Christians who are Gay, telling them they're not saved, when they are. Or are you going to backtrack that?

 

[In Between Man]

Just because I do not believe in your version of God, doesn't make me "Godless". That said, there are some - a few - good things that have come of your version of God that I do respect/admire. My mind is not closed, nor is my heart hardened. And as for sinful behavior; seeing as I have no current partner of the same sex, in this context, I'm not sinning, am I.

Yes you are Godless because there's only one God and you're currently not his daughter. You may have a belief in a "higher power" but unless that's the correct God you are in fact Godless.

I think, if you re-read that, you'll note that I was not saying YOU are doing these things, but a collective you.

Again, collective you; do you know what that means? It means people who think like you, not you necessarily. You're right, I don't know you, which is why that is a collective you.

Oh like **** they aren't. You get Christians repeatedly, continually, day after day after day saying "You're going to hell! You'll burn forever!" to a young kid and soon enough he'll believe that horse****. And then, already emotionally unstable because they know they're gay but now they think they're going to some place of pain and suffering for the rest of their afterlife, they figure what's the bloody point of being alive now, so they suicide. It's emotional and spiritual abuse, emotional and spiritual torture that Christians are doing to these kids and some of them, sadly, can't handle it. So yes, yes they are responsible.

Focus on what I'm saying on not what you others have told you Christians say/do.

You say Christians bully kids to the point of death. Prove it. If anything, gay teens who are bullied to death are done so by secular kids, not Christians.

Deny it all you want, but that is truth.

What are you talking about? Truth is subjective remember? That means Christians bully kids to death "in your mind only". It's true for you, not me! Or are you going to backtrack on that!?

And that last line is a crock of BS. Otherwise Christians would stop badgering those Christians who are Gay, telling them they're not saved, when they are. Or are you going to backtrack that?

Show me where Christians badger gay Christians.

Others who claim to be Christian, condemn people to hell. Others who claim to be Christians repeatedly tell gays they'll burn for their "sinful" ways, even if they haven't even "sinned" yet. Others who claim to be Christians will even bully and beat up gay kids, all because their version of God has said they're going to hell, and thus they're not worthy of human decency or respect.

Or are these people not Christians?

You're the one claiming these bullies are Christians! The ONUS is on you! Prove it!

 

[Cliffy]

Once again you think it all comes down to how people feel and what they think. It has nothing to due with feelings or thoughts, we need salvation regardless if believe it or not. People who need it but don't believe so are like blind people walking to the edge of a deadly cliff. Some of us are trying to warn you to no avail!

Notice the hypocrisy of your camp. Which stripe on your technicolor flag (that's suppose to mean DIVERSITY and TOLERANCE) represents Jesus Christ being the ONLY way, the truth and the life? It's not represented on your hypocritical flag. That's because the truth is unpopular and people want to justify their sinful behavior instead of feeling the weight (shame) of their sin.

That doesn't mean never judge. You misconstrue what it says. It's referring to hypocrisy. If I confronted someone with their homosexual sin when I myself are participating in homosexual behavior (or sinful heterosexual behavior) I would obviously be a hypocrite and I would feel the weight of my own sin if I was to be judged as well.

You know that when Jesus said that it was because the religious leaders wanted to LITERALLY stone a woman accused of adultery? Context Cliffy. There's a world of difference between using words to communicate to someone that they're breaking God's law (judgment) and using violence (condemnation) for breaking God's law. There not the same thing.



Man, you just didn't drink from the cup of moral relativism, you slammed the whole bottle!

So Cliffy, if I believe after I die I become God almighty himself with all the omniscience that comes with it, will it come to pass? Is that all it takes? Whatever you believe, so be it? Seems rather convenient not to mention illogical and irrational!

You know something? Only an asshole would throw the gay flag in my face and make such outrageous statements as it is my flag. You crossed the line there dick head. Adios.

 

[TenPenny]

Once again you think it all comes down to how people feel and what they think. It has nothing to due with feelings or thoughts, we need salvation regardless if believe it or not. People who need it but don't believe so are like blind people walking to the edge of a deadly cliff. Some of us are trying to warn you to no avail!

You need salvation, apparently, but many of us do not. If you are so weak and uncertain, that you need to prop up your fragile self image with religious claptrap, that's not my problem, it's yours.

 

[Cannuck]

Well it's a fine line if you ask me. We're all sinners and there's not one good person among us, so you should alwayz approach others with love and your own sense of humility. But on the other hand if people never heard that their behavior was sinful they would never realize that they need forgiveness and salvation.

I'm not a sinner. In fact, I've never sinned in my entire life.

 

[JLM]

I'm not a sinner. In fact, I've never sinned in my entire life.

If you don't count arguing you may be right. :lol:

 

[karrie]

I'm assuming (& I know...the ass/u/me thing) that's just the
way it is for those that are Homo or Bi or whatever.

Bi people muddy the issue, as they can actually make a choice to live life one way or another. Thus you get the few who people can actually say decided to live a straight life, or decided to live a gay life, and it's not exactly wrong, is it?

 

[taxslave]

Well it's a fine line if you ask me. We're all sinners and there's not one good person among us, so you should alwayz approach others with love and your own sense of humility. But on the other hand if people never heard that their behavior was sinful they would never realize that they need forgiveness and salvation.

All that only works for believers. I have no need of either forgiveness or salvation. Well not quite I need salvation from self righteous religious fanatics that think they have a right to tell the rest of us what is tight or wrong.

 

[levanty]

Yet you say "there are many ways to salvation". Why would there be many ways or even one narrow way to salvation if there was no need for it?

That doesn't matter. Not all viewpoints and beliefs are valid, in fact only one viewpoint is - the correct one.

No I wouldn't! People can preach any message they want! It's actually imperative that everyone is free to share whatever faith they want, because that way Christians are also free to express their faith.

Have I ever written that we should "get medieval" on their asses? No. I'm just not willing to appease their political agenda, nor am I willing to tolerate their widespread violence.

And is that I why I should only see it your way?

Thinking that your beliefs are the only true beliefs and everybody else is wrong is being self righteous. Telling someone that is being a self righteous prick.

You're a very patient man In Between. I've altogether stopped wasting my time on nose-picking a-holes who think that they're the only ones who have a right to an opinion around here. If only I had the chance, I'd knock one of them upside the head with a fricking 2x4. These name-calling anti-Christs aren't even getting paid to be pricks. Don't bother trying to convert them In Between, they just do it for the fun. They're messing with you and you're wasting your time trying to shed some light onto their poor excuse for a mind. Wannabe intellectuals, low-class scum off the street that don't even deserve the air that they breath. Do you hear me In Between? Let it go! Oh, but don't stop praying for Cliffy...he asked me to pray really hard.

 

[Vaessen]

It's a fetish

 

[Corduroy]

Have you ever told a lie?

Lying's not a sin.

 

[Cliffy]

We can measure the damage done by the murderer and the rapist but we have no mechanism to measure the damage done by the self righteous.