Several dead, many wounded in bus attack in Israel

[mentalfloss]

I like where this thread is going now.

Now, all we need left are some maps with big, curvey red arrows.

 

[DaSleeper]

I like where this thread is going now.

Now, all we need left are some maps with big, curvey red arrows.

What!!!! No pie charts???? Shyte......

 

[earth_as_one]

Perhaps....I know they had them by the late sixties.....

Now, are you suggesting they should have waited for the Arabs to attack.....then nuked them???

It would have been their only option.

I'm not making any suggestions about tactics.

My point was that a superficial look at the numbers is misleading regarding relative strength. Israel possessing better quality bombs (nukes) alone proves your assertion that Israel was militarily weaker than their adversaries was incorrect. It also makes my point about the difference quality makes. If we were just comparing numbers of bombs possessed by both sides, then the Arabs would appear to have the advantage. But the reality is that Israel's nukes gave them a clear advantage.

Bombs aren't the only area where Israel had a qualitative advantage. Israel also had better quality aircraft, tanks, warships.... Israel's soldiers were better trained and better armed. The Arab leadership was fragmented and disorganized. Israel's leadership was unified and coordinated. A closer analysis of the relative strengths of the two sides indicates Israel was much stronger relative to their adversaries than numbers alone suggest.

Israel's leaders knew their qualitative superiority gave them military superiority and they would probably win a conventional war. If they attacked first without warning, they were virtually certain to win. Possessing nukes gave Israel's leaders the confidence to initiate a conventional war. If things went wrong, they could stop the war with a single nuke, or decimate their opponents with a series of nukes.

BTW, I'm not criticizing Israel for striking first. As I said, all is fair in love and war. I am simply refuting your belief that in 1967 Israel was at a military disadvantage or that their existence was at stake.

 

[mentalfloss]

Israel was worried it wouldn't exist?

 

[earth_as_one]

That's the commonly perceived myth.

 

[lone wolf]

Theatrics, dramatics, exaggeration.... How better to get people onboard?

 

[earth_as_one]

Back in 1948, evil Arab hordes attacked the innocent Zionists as they tended their kibbutzes. Hopelessly out numbered and unarmed but determined they responded by forming a rag tag group of militias. They made their own weapons with their bare hands from mud and tree bark. Their uniforms were made from leaves and grasses. During the battle when it looked like defeat was certain and the brave Zionists might loose hope, God intervened on their side. He smit the enemy of his chosen people and the cowardly Arabs fled, proving Israel's creation was a miracle.

As I said, I'm not criticizing Israel for having a stronger military than their adversaries or attacking first. I'm debunking common myths about Israel and this conflict. Another myth is that Israel follows International Laws regarding their treatment of POWs.

...The haters NEEDED to revise history.

...The POW was escorted to a distance of about 100 meters from the building and given a spade. I watched the POW digging a big pit which took about 15 minutes. Then the policemen ordered him to throw out the spade. When he did so one of them pointed his Uzi gun at the POW inside the pit and shot two short bullet bursts, consisting maybe of three four bullets each. The POW fell dead. After a few minutes another POW was escorted to the same pit, forced to go into it and was also shot dead. A third POW was brought to the same place and also shot dead. Since the process was repeated a number of times, the grave was filled up...

Mass Graves

I'm not the one revising history here....

 

[Colpy]

Back in 1948, evil Arab hordes attacked the innocent Zionists as they tended their kibbutzes. Hopelessly out numbered and unarmed but determined they responded by forming a rag tag group of militias. They made their own weapons with their bare hands from mud and tree bark. Their uniforms were made from leaves and grasses. During the battle when it looked like defeat was certain and the brave Zionists might loose hope, God intervened on their side. He smit the enemy of his chosen people and the cowardly Arabs fled, proving Israel's creation was a miracle.

As I said, I'm not criticizing Israel for having a stronger military than their adversaries or attacking first. I'm debunking common myths about Israel and this conflict. Another myth is that Israel follows International Laws regarding their treatment of POWs.

Mass Graves

I'm not the one revising history here....

Well, I looked.

What I found was a Jewish historian relating the execution of Palestinian terrorists wearing Egyptian uniforms....ten people.

I also found an article in which the authors of that report claim to have been misquoted.

I also found this;

In 1997, the BBC reported on a Sept. 7 news conference held by the Egyptian Human Rights Organization. EHRO Secretary-General Muhammad Munib described a report which “had taken 18 months to prepare and complete, during which certified testimonies were obtained from several Egyptian officers and soldiers who were eyewitnesses to the killing of Egyptian POWs at the hands of Israeli forces during the wars of 1956 and 1967."
According to the BBC, Munib’s report confirmed that Israel had killed between 7,000 to 15,000 Egyptian prisoners of war during the wars of 1956 and 1967. Munib said that “the locations of 11 mass graves had been determined in Sinai and Israel, in which thousands of Egyptian prisoners were buried.

Ahhh....excuse me??? That was FOURTEEN YEARS AGO. Where are these mass graves in Egyptian-controlled Sinai???????

Are the Egyptians sparing Jewish sensibilities???

Gimme a break.

They have not been revealed.....because they don't exist.

BTW, most of the stuff I found on this was on sites with links to contribute to Ernst Zundel's defense.....and another site called "Jew Watch"

Right.

And more lies: that the Israelis enjoyed a massive qualitative advantage in the 1967 war.........the Israelis used mostly upgraded Sherman tanks..........with a few Centurions thrown in..........the Arab forces of Jordan and Syria also used upgraded Shermans........the forces of Egypt used upgraded T-34s (the BEST tank of WWII) and a other Soviet armor, some of it very modern.

As for air, the Egyptians were using the Mig 17, Mig 19, and the vast majority of their aircraft were the excellent Mig 21 (some flown by Soviet pilots.....yes there were Soviets killed)......Israel destroyed most of these on the ground, as was necessary for them to have any chance......Israel lost 10% of her attack aircraft in the first morning....imagine if they had waited to be attacked!!!

Remember, the Arabs had THREE TIMES the armor and air...........

The "quality advantage" existed....in the Israeli civilian soldier, who understood he was fighting FOR HIS LIFE and that of every Jew in Israel.

 

[petros]

24 days...

 

[Colpy]

Oh, one more thing:

Egyptian KIA in the 1956 War were approximately 3,000.

Egyptian KIA in the 1967 War were approximately 10,000.

These idiots are accusing the Israelis of murdering up to a number of Egyptian soldiers than is actually significantly MORE than the total number killed in those wars...........

uh-huh.

And this:

Michael Adams of the Council for Anglo-Arab Understanding, a pro-Arab lobby, made the claim that the Israeli army had massacred 200 Arabs in Gaza. David Pryce-Jones, an esteemed journalist who in 1973 wrote The Face of Defeat, a book about the Palestinians, was alarmed at the charge of such an atrocity in the territory he was covering. He relates:

• “So I investigated. The story had begun with Gazans themselves. For days on end, they escorted me helpfully through the crowded streets of Gaza City from one house to another in search of families with a missing relative. There was always one more address to be visited, and one more rumor to be explored, but we found neither victims nor burial place for the simple reason that none existed. The story was untrue.”

Result of The Six Day War | Palestine Facts

I'm not the one revising history here....

Clearly, yes you are.

 

[TenPenny]

For our apologist revisionist friend

In 1947, the Zionist movement accepted the United Nations partition plan, whereas the Arab side rejected it and went to war against it. A decision to go to war has consequences, just as it did in 1939 or 1941.
The importance of this distinction becomes clear upon perusing the op-ed that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas recently published in The New York Times. Abbas mentioned the partition decision in his article, but said not one single word about the facts - who accepted it and who rejected it. He merely wrote that "Shortly thereafter, Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs."
That is like those Germans who talk about the horrors of the expulsion of 12 million ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after 1945, but fail to mention the Nazi attack on Poland, or the Japanese who talk about Hiroshima, but fail to mention their attack on Pearl Harbor. That is not a "narrative," it is simply not telling the truth. Effects cannot be divorced from causes.

 

[earth_as_one]

Oh, one more thing:

Egyptian KIA in the 1956 War were approximately 3,000.

Egyptian KIA in the 1967 War were approximately 10,000.

These idiots are accusing the Israelis of murdering up to a number of Egyptian soldiers than is actually significantly MORE than the total number killed in those wars...........

uh-huh.

And this:



Result of The Six Day War | Palestine Facts



Clearly, yes you are.

Palestine Facts is about as objective as AIPAC and CAMERA. You really can't tell $hit from Shinola. Relying on Israeli propaganda sources and extreme neoconservative hate sites are probably the root cause of your many misperceptions. Here is what was reported in the NYT back in 1995 about claims regarding Israel executing POWs:
Egypt Says Israelis Killed P.O.W.'s in '67 War - NYTimes.com

I can find many other credible testimonies and reference physical evidence which support the case that Israeli forces executed at least some Egyptian POWs. I'm not making claims about specific numbers or examples.

Attributing similar claims to me that I did not make so you can refute them is a Straw Man argument.

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

For our apologist revisionist friend

Do you believe the 1947 partition plan fairly divided up Palestine?

 

[Colpy]

Palestine Facts is about as objective as AIPAC and CAMERA. You really can't tell $hit from Shinola. Relying on Israeli propaganda sources and extreme neoconservative hate sites are probably the root cause of your many misperceptions. Here is what was reported in the NYT back in 1995 about claims regarding Israel executing POWs:
Egypt Says Israelis Killed P.O.W.'s in '67 War - NYTimes.com

I can find many other credible testimonies and reference physical evidence which support the case that Israeli forces executed at least some Egyptian POWs. I'm not making claims about specific numbers or examples.

Attributing similar claims to me that I did not make so you can refute them is a Straw Man argument.

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.



Do you believe the 1947 partition plan fairly divided up Palestine?

From the NY Times article:

The discovery of the two graves, one near a former Egyptian air base about three miles from El Arish and the other about 18 miles from town, was described today in the Government-owned newspaper Al Ahram.

Oh wonderful!!! The Egyptians claim they found at most 60 bodies in some unfilmed, undisclosed grave from 1967......not quite 7,000 to 15,000 is it???

You know, people get killed in wars, and often dumped in common graves....IF it is even true......

The Government-owned newspaper Al Ahram

The government daily Al-Ahram - the leading paper in Egypt - published a full-page article by columnist 'Adel Hamooda entitled, "A Jewish Matzah made from Arab Blood."Following are excerpts from this article:

The Murder of Father Toma
"Every time I see the children of the stones in occupied Palestine as they spring like blood from the arteries I remember my grandfather who used to gather all the neighborhood children in his home in Alexandria to give them candy and tell them the tale of the Jew who slaughtered a boy and made Passover Matzah from his blood. Then, drunk with lust and barbarity, they devoured it."
"I thought that my grandfather's story was a fairy tale like the story about the wicked witch who turned children into frogs. But when I matured and read. I found out that the story of the Jewish blood Matzah is true [and] that all its details are recorded in the Shar'i [Islamic Religious] Courts in Damascus, Aleppo and Hama in 1840. The French Orientalist Charles Laurand published these details in a book called The Murder of Father Toma and his Servant Ibrahim Amara. The book was translated to Arabic by Dr. Youssef Nasrallah and published in Cairo in 1898."

Leading Egyptian Newspaper raises Blood Libel

And you accuse ME of using biased sources!!!!!!!

You do have your gall, not much less than I expected in such an ardent Jew-hater....

 

[EagleSmack]

The US and Western 1941 embargo of Japan provoked the 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
The Arab 1967 blockade of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping provoked the 1967 Israeli attack against its Arab neighbors.

The Japanese decided that when we would not support the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, which basically meant the Far East under control of Japan and the Far East in servitude to the Emperor they chose to take by force the materials they needed.

Provoked? How so? We did not attack. We were in no position to attack and could not even defend ourselves successfully. Attacking us would not better their chances of getting us to sell them oil and raw materials or to un-freeze their assets. No sir, they attacked because we were the only ones that could oppose them. They attacked us and the Anglo-Allies because we were the only ones who could possibly stand in the way of their designs for a Great Far East Empire under the yoke of Japan.

Provocation... I think not.

But the blockade of the Straits of Tiran, and movement of Arab armies to the border of Israel, coupled with the rhetoric that war and the destruction of Israel in imminent was clearly a provocation. We both agree there.

 

[Goober]

Back in 1948, evil Arab hordes attacked the innocent Zionists as they tended their kibbutz's. Hopelessly out numbered and unarmed but determined they responded by forming a rag tag group of militias. They made their own weapons with their bare hands from mud and tree bark. Their uniforms were made from leaves and grasses. During the battle when it looked like defeat was certain and the brave Zionists might loose hope, God intervened on their side. He smit the enemy of his chosen people and the cowardly Arabs fled, proving Israel's creation was a miracle.

I'm not the one revising history here....

No you revise and then twist facts. Palestine ( meaning Jews) were under an arms embargo- But Arab countires were wll supplied.
You simply have no idea why the Jews fought so hard- They knew beyond all doubt that if they lost a Kibbutz, a town the country - They would be slaughtered like sheep.

Do you doubt that the Arabs would have committed Mass Murders - Genocide - of the Jews?Or is that to difficult for you to comprehend?


War of Independence

1948 Arab

The 1948 War

Arab Order of Battle | 1948 Arab-Israeli War | Military History | Balagan | Steven Thomas

 

[Cliffy]

Several dead, many wounded in pro Israeli/ pro Palestinian debate on CC. Several others have been reported missing as sniper fire increases.

 

[earth_as_one]

In order for the NYT to print the story, they had to believe the story had merit. Let me know when the New York Times reprints Al Ahram's blood libel story.

Here is a NYT OpEd about the same story:

...Allegations of unprovoked killings first appeared last month when a retired Israeli General, Arieh Biroh, admitted he had killed Egyptian prisoners in the 1956 conflict with Egypt...

...An Israeli offer of compensation to the families of the victims is laudable, but not sufficient...

Graves and Questions in the Sinai - Editorial - NYTimes.com

How about the YNet?
Ynetnews is the English-language sister-site to Ynet, Israel's largest and most popular news and content website.
Former Meretz leader decries 1967 war crimes - Israel News, Ynetnews


Also according to my research, Egyptians probably executed some Israeli POWs in 1973. When Israeli PM Rabin was asked about the Egyptian POW executions and launching an investigation, he never denied them. Instead he said:

"There were digressions on both sides. No good would be served by bringing up these issues,"
Rabin rejects call to investigate alleged POW killings in '56, '67 | j. the Jewish news weekly of Northern California

 

[Goober]

Several dead, many wounded in pro Israeli/ pro Palestinian debate on CC. Several others have been reported missing as sniper fire increases.

Yes - Many on the Pro Israel side were ambushed as all they had to defend themselves were reams of facts - Guns make short work of paper - Charges of murder, Blood Libel and outright embellishment including the oft used tactic of revisionism are also expected to be laid at the door of the Pro Palestinians.

 

[Colpy]

In order for the NYT to print the story, they had to believe the story had merit. Let me know when the New York Times reprints Al Ahram's blood libel story.

Here is a NYT OpEd about the same story:

Graves and Questions in the Sinai - Editorial - NYTimes.com

How about the YNet?
Ynetnews is the English-language sister-site to Ynet, Israel's largest and most popular news and content website.
Former Meretz leader decries 1967 war crimes - Israel News, Ynetnews


Also according to my research, Egyptians probably executed some Israeli POWs in 1973. When Israeli PM Rabin was asked about the Egyptian POW executions and launching an investigation, he never denied them. Instead he said:

"There were digressions on both sides. No good would be served by bringing up these issues,"
Rabin rejects call to investigate alleged POW killings in '56, '67 | j. the Jewish news weekly of Northern California

Yep. People die in war, they get buried in mass graves. Sometimes they get shot out of hand..........

Crap has happened in every war since the beginning of time........get Real.

So, was it a dozen? May be thirty? Perhaps 60?

Or maybe they killed every Egyptian that was listed as KIA in the war..........and then imported some more to kill. As the Egyptian "human rights" people claim.

Spare me.

And, BTW, in case you haven't noticed, the NY Times is NOT famous for verifying its stories..........liars abound on its pages, or did you miss the big "I made it all up" scandals????

http://news.scotsman.com/newyorktimesscandal/Times-draws-line-under-fake.2444067.jp

That you would use a source that quotes the blood libel is outrageous.....it is like quoting "Mein Kampf" as a valid source on Jewish behaviour.

GET REAL.

If there were mass graves in the Sinai, you would see article after article after article......forensic pathologists would be interviewed at length, pictures would adorn news magazines of skeletal remains laid out on sheets awaiting ID.......

Where are they???

I remember them about Srebrenica, and Iraq, etc....

How are the public media missing this chance to smear the Jews???? They so love it.....

Guess what? It is at best a vast exaggeration, at worst a complete fabrication.

Like the illegality of the blockade, causing the flotilla "massacre"

Like the targeting of civilians in Operation Cast Lead.

Like the Great Jenin Massacre

Like the Blood Libel itself

Like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Get Real.

 

[Goober]

In order for the NYT to print the story, they had to believe the story had merit. Let me know when the New York Times reprints Al Ahram's blood libel story.

Here is a NYT OpEd about the same story:

Graves and Questions in the Sinai - Editorial - NYTimes.com

How about the YNet?
Ynetnews is the English-language sister-site to Ynet, Israel's largest and most popular news and content website.
Former Meretz leader decries 1967 war crimes - Israel News, Ynetnews


Also according to my research, Egyptians probably executed some Israeli POWs in 1973. When Israeli PM Rabin was asked about the Egyptian POW executions and launching an investigation, he never denied them. Instead he said:

"There were digressions on both sides. No good would be served by bringing up these issues,"
Rabin rejects call to investigate alleged POW killings in '56, '67 | j. the Jewish news weekly of Northern California

Is this not the same paper that stated Saddam had WMDs
Next - Civilians in the Sinai - really

Egyptian troops were know to strip off their uniform when losing so as to not appear as a combatant.

Lastly - No proof other than a report.