Long Gun Registry -Yes- No

Long Gun Registry - For - Against - To Lazy to care


  • Total voters
    43
  • Poll closed .

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
Just out of curiosity, why are people so opposed to registering whose weapons are whose?

Are they shy about it? Do they feel like it puts them in the same league as a sex offender?

To me, I liked the idea that it be made it official and clear that those weapons are mine.

What in the world is so freaking people out about it?

Perhaps a few aren't the sort of gong-heads who start breakfast with beer and start targeting road signs if they haven't got a deer by noon... in other words, the kind of guys who'd vote for Harper.

Some of them may even not trust government to do anything in the way they make it sound in the pretty paper....
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
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Vernon, B.C.
Just out of curiosity, why are people so opposed to registering whose weapons are whose?

Are they shy about it? Do they feel like it puts them in the same league as a sex offender?

To me, I liked the idea that it be made it official and clear that those weapons are mine.

What in the world is so freaking people out about it?

Ten billion dollars for starters and still rising.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
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I don't follow your reasoning. Why do cars have to be identified for 'benign purposes'? Why do you think that registering guns is 'hassling' the population, but registering cars isn't?


This analogy is so simplistic, so incredibly inappropriate, and so universally used......it makes me crazy.

1. You can't get ten years in prison for failing to register your car.

2. You don't get a criminal record for failing to register your car.

3. The fact you have registered a number of cars does not give the police the right to search your home.

4. If your registered car is stolen by a thief, you don't get charged with unsafe storage.

5. No registered class of vehicles has ever been seized without compensation.

6. The registration of cars is not an attempt at control of the population, but simply a revenue-generating device.

7. The right to own cars has never been considered one of the basic rights of man by any serious political philosopher.

8. And lastly .....most importantly......YOU DON'T HAVE TO REGISTER YOUR CAR! Cars only have to be registered if they are to be driven on public roads.

Tell you what, I willingly will register every firearm I intend to fire on public roads...okay?

:roll:
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
1,694
3
38
Vancouver
Perhaps a few aren't the sort of gong-heads who start breakfast with beer and start targeting road signs if they haven't got a deer by noon... in other words, the kind of guys who'd vote for Harper.

Some of them may even not trust government to do anything in the way they make it sound in the pretty paper....
Hmm... well, personally I liked the idea of a registry, because I'm kind'a attached to my weapons. I grew up with them, and we've had some serious adventures together, and if they were stolen and found I'd want to be able to get them back, but, having read some of Colpy's comments, I'm starting to think the act might have been badly written.

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. I honestly can't count the number of times someone came up with a good idea, and by the time the legislators had finished doing their committee thing on it, it had not only been watered down, but it had actually become counter-productive (strange thing about committees is there's an inverse relationship between the number of heads on it and the quality of thinking that comes out).

So... *sigh*... I guess I'd better actually read the act.

But just so you know, if there is a problem with it, I'm not going to complain to the MP. MPs are mostly colour-blind used-car salesmen in bad checkered suits. Something like that gets taken to a Senator. That's what they're there for.

Because people are still working there. :smile:
Well crumb... if you're going to factor in the year-to-year staffing costs, *any* program will be in the "billions and still rising" category.

Didn't the CACP report imply that it was saving them money?
 
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Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Team CSSA welcomes Brant Scott and opens Ottawa office.
Ethics expert says police chiefs' association
has track record of "dodgy behaviour."



By Larry Whitmore
Executive Director
Canadian Shooting Sports Association

..................................................

So, why do the politically motivated police associations lobby so breathlessly to keep the registry? The answer may have more to do with financial gain than social conscience.

There was barely a ripple within the mainstream media when ethicist Dr. John Jones suddenly resigned his position on the CACP's ethics committee last year. The whole committee had been warning the CACP board of directors for some time that they should stop taking money from organizations they do business with – the ethics committee said it's a clear conflict of interest.

In April 2009, media reports confirmed the CACP accepted about $115,000 from CGI Group, a Bell Mobility affiliate. Is it mere coincidence that CGI is the software contractor for the gun registry and the chiefs' organization is strident in its support for the registry? The CGI donation was used to send CACP conference delegates to a Céline Dion concert. The CACP annual galas are legendary for their opulence as cities compete to out-do the conference before. During this year's gala in Edmonton on August 22-25, the media reported that the chiefs voted unanimously to support the gun registry.

"I resigned on a matter of principal," Dr. Jones explained to the CSSA. "I was deeply discomfited that Celine Dion tickets were supplied to CACP by Bell and a couple of other sponsors at their Montreal conference. They were handed out to delegates. It didn't sit well with me because if a front line officer takes so much as a cup of coffee, they are considered to be in a conflict of interest. I thought it was hypocritical on the part of those chiefs to accept those tickets.

"We (CACP ethics committee) had worked with the chiefs for about six months trying to constructively change their opinion," he adds. "I resigned when we received a letter from them that said 'thanks but no thanks, we're going to continue to do business.' What makes it unethical for me is that first step that puts you in debt to these corporations."

Dr. Jones, who was also an ethics adviser to the International Association of Chiefs of Police, says the practice of accepting donations is particularly unethical when the CACP provides public support for a product that a donor provides.

"It's simply the impropriety of taking gifts from people with whom the chiefs do extensive business," he says. "That puts them in the pockets of the chiefs and I think that's an unfortunate state of affairs. If there is a link between Bell and CGI and this registry work, then there is definitely a conflict. There were other sponsors at the time who were funding lavish dinners that no one is talking about.

"There is a track record there," adds Dr. Jones. "There was a very public endorsement of Taser International – there's certainly a precedent for this kind of endorsement in the face of sponsorship. My advice was 'hands off' – keep a distance so you can't be accused of favouritism or being swayed in your opinion-making. It's not ethical. In the moral domain, it's really dodgy behaviour. It's just inviting public criticism in my view."

Dr. Jones also notes that some Taser shareholders expressed concern that company funds shouldn't be handed out without some assurance of a return. In the wake of the CACP public endorsements for Taser and GCI, surely even the chiefs can't deny the trend.

Given the CACP's questionable business methods exposed by their own ethicist, there is scant reason to trust the chiefs' shrill edict that the registry is essential to police. With this said, why does the Liberal Party of Canada place so much trust in a self-serving group that has demonstrated that its approval is for sale?

On the other side of the chess board, Detective Sergeant Murray Grismer of the Saskatoon Police Service recently appeared before the federal public safety committee to opine on Private Members' Bill C-391 to scrap the gun registry. He claims that Canada's top cops are pulling rank by prohibiting police officers from speaking out.

"I represent the opinion of thousands of police officers across Canada who are, in my opinion, the silent majority and, for some, the silenced majority," Det. Sgt. Grismer told the parliamentary committee. "(They are) not only police officers who have been ordered not to speak out against the long-gun registry, but also officers who fear for their careers should they voice an opinion publicly in opposition to continuation of the registry or against the position adopted by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, their chief of police, or commanding officer. To say the police community is divided on support for the long-gun registry is an understatement."

Meanwhile, even pro-registry police admitted to the public safety committee that if the registry advised there was no gun present in a residence, police would not trust that information to be accurate. Conversely, if registry data said there were a specific number of guns present, they would not trust that information either, and assume there could be more guns. So, if pro-registry police recommend ignoring both a positive and negative registry result, it seems obvious that the registry is an utter waste of time for police.

Criminologist Dr. Gary Mauser, Professor Emeritus at Simon Fraser University, told the committee that the registry data itself is too corrupt to be useful.

"It is difficult to understand why the chiefs of police support the long-gun registry," says Dr. Mauser. "(It) has so many errors that relying upon it puts the lives of rank-and-file police members at risk. This is a classic database problem: garbage in, gospel out. The police should know better.

"Millions of entries are incorrect or missing," he adds. "Most striking, less than half of all long guns in Canada are in the registry. The long-gun registry does worse – it misdirects the police. People who have registered their firearms are less likely to be violent than Canadians who don't even own firearms. They should be. Gun owners have been screened by the police since 1979. We are told that 15 percent of the guns used in homicides are long guns. What is not said is that virtually none were registered. How does the gun registry help? When I spoke at the Ontario Police College, one of the instructors told me privately that trusting the registry was a way to get good police officers killed."

..............................................................

The burning question is this: Since when do Canadians allow police chiefs to create the policies that should be made by our elected representatives?
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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This analogy is so simplistic, so incredibly inappropriate, and so universally used......it makes me crazy.

1. You can't get ten years in prison for failing to register your car.

2. You don't get a criminal record for failing to register your car.

3. The fact you have registered a number of cars does not give the police the right to search your home.

4. If your registered car is stolen by a thief, you don't get charged with unsafe storage.

5. No registered class of vehicles has ever been seized without compensation.

6. The registration of cars is not an attempt at control of the population, but simply a revenue-generating device.

7. The right to own cars has never been considered one of the basic rights of man by any serious political philosopher.

8. And lastly .....most importantly......YOU DON'T HAVE TO REGISTER YOUR CAR! Cars only have to be registered if they are to be driven on public roads.

Tell you what, I willingly will register every firearm I intend to fire on public roads...okay?

:roll:

And I do not want any nutcase to be able to walk in off the street and buy a gun. And you know as well as i there are plenty of nutbars out on the street.

Will it save lives - I believe so

As to CACP and the Celine Dion tickets etc - taser - Don't care

As to rifles, pistols etc - I do care.

I want them restricted - I want people who are possibly going off the deep end, where a medical professional can contact Police - Call it an invasion - i call it preventative medicine - Not Big Brother -

But my right to have these people protected from themselves, and to protect me and others as well.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
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8. And lastly .....most importantly......YOU DON'T HAVE TO REGISTER YOUR CAR! Cars only have to be registered if they are to be driven on public roads.


If this is the most important point, then fine. Don't register unused firearms, only register firearms which will be used. That's a simple fix, one that would easilly get passed in Ottawa.

 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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And I do not want any nutcase to be able to walk in off the street and buy a gun. And you know as well as i there are plenty of nutbars out on the street.

Will it save lives - I believe so


As to rifles, pistols etc - I do care.

I want them restricted - I want people who are possibly going off the deep end, where a medical professional can contact Police -.

Well Goob, sad to say today my opinion differs from yours. I think the concern about the nutcases (and excons) is mainly unfounded. Those people for the most part are "registered" and generally prohibited from owning/possessing firearms, which is good- as I've said all along identify the perpetrator. I'm also in agreement with the necessity of everyone purchasing a firearm to have to show identification so it can be ascertained that he is not restricted. I think that is all that should be necessary. No law abiding, sane person is going to provide an irresponsible person with a gun for nefarious purposes.
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
1,694
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Vancouver
And I do not want any nutcase to be able to walk in off the street and buy a gun. And you know as well as i there are plenty of nutbars out on the street.

Will it save lives - I believe so

As to CACP and the Celine Dion tickets etc - taser - Don't care

As to rifles, pistols etc - I do care.

I want them restricted - I want people who are possibly going off the deep end, where a medical professional can contact Police - Call it an invasion - i call it preventative medicine - Not Big Brother -

But my right to have these people protected from themselves, and to protect me and others as well.
Well, hmm... just to shine some light on things from a different angel...

In high-school I was the buck-toothed pencil-neck science geek, and there was this other guy, let's call him RR, who was the star center block on the football team, president of the student's council, dated the blond lead cheerleader, teacher's pet... the whole nine yards.

After high-school he an I ended up in a theater company together (that was one of the few things to do in that boring town), and one evening after a show we were down in the green room getting super-stoned, and he started telling me about his gun collection.

Turns out he had *300*! His basement was like an armory! And... THEY ALL HAD NAMES! He would talk to them while cleaning them! It was creepy to listen to while stoned, and among other things I wondered if he'd ever actually hunted anything. I had an antelope, several deer, and countless bags full of pheasant, grouse and partridge by that time.

Now, some background. Him and his buddies had a tradition of Thursday night poker starting in junior-high. Come hell or high-water, no matter what, whether it be girlfriends or bad weather, they'd meet for poker.

Forward again. He explained how his obsession was to become RCMP, and some time later, he somehow got accepted into the Regina Academy.

Upon graduation, he was back home waiting for assignment, and his brain was spinning with conviction that somewhere a crime was being committed, so, he noticed it was a Thursday, and so he drove to the house where he knew a poker game was being played. He knocked, they let him in, saying, "Hey RR, where ya been! Long time no see! Si'down and cut some chips!"

He pulled out his badge and slapped it on the table telling them they were all under arrest for illegal gambling.

The judge was stupefied. He declared the accused guilty and sentence-suspended as he slammed the gavel and told them to get the hell out of his court, and then he demanded to speak to RR's commander.

He ended up posted to some cabin in northern Saskatchewan, with a bucket for hauling water, and a food drop every six weeks.

I'm trying to imagine how his head would have reacted to news that he must now enforce a gun registery. Would the issue have been that there was no place on the form for the gun's name?
 
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karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
I simply do not see long guns as a huge risk to public safety, any more so than any other tool that people use. And I think that the government ought to exercise great caution when limiting or placing strings on the access of its populace to tools.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
Well, hmm... just to shine some light on things from a different angel...

In high-school I was the buck-toothed pencil-neck science geek, and there was this other guy, let's call him RR, who was the star center block on the football team, president of the student's council, dated the blond lead cheerleader, teacher's pet... the whole nine yards.

After high-school he an I ended up in a theater company together (that was one of the few things to do in that boring town), and one evening after a show we were down in the green room getting super-stoned, and he started telling me about his gun collection.

Turns out he had *300*! His basement was like an armory! And... THEY ALL HAD NAMES! He would talk to them while cleaning them! It was creepy to listen to while stoned, and among other things I wondered if he'd ever actually hunted anything. I had an antelope, several deer, and countless bags full of pheasant, grouse and partridge by that time.

Now, some background. Him and his buddies had a tradition of Thursday night poker starting in junior-high. Come hell or high-water, no matter what, whether it be girlfriends or bad weather, they'd meet for poker.

Forward again. He explained how his obsession was to become RCMP, and some time later, he somehow got accepted into the Regina Academy.

Upon graduation, he was back home waiting for assignment, and his brain was spinning with conviction that somewhere a crime was being committed, so, he noticed it was a Thursday, and so he drove to the house where he knew a poker game was being played. He knocked, they let him in, saying, "Hey RR, where ya been! Long time no see! Si'down and cut some chips!"

He pulled out his badge and slapped it on the table telling them they were all under arrest for illegal gambling.

The judge was stupefied. He declared the accused guilty and suspended as he slammed the gavel and told them to get the hell out of his court, and then he demanded to speak to RR's commander.

He ended up posted to some cabin in northern Saskatchewan, with a bucket for hauling water, and a food drop every six weeks.

I'm trying to imagine how his head would have reacted to news that he must now enforce a gun registery. Would the issue have been that there was no place on the form for the gun's name?

I love that anecdote, but I can't figure out why "some cabin in Northern Sask." - he should be in some igloo on the north end of Ellemere Island with a box of matches and a small can of mosquito dope. Moral of your story is - it is impossible to fully protect ourselves against everybody.
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
1,694
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Vancouver
I simply do not see long guns as a huge risk to public safety, any more so than any other tool that people use.
They're not. Part of my childhood was spent growing up on a farm, and the weapons we had were vital for all kinds of situations. Mostly it was the 22.
And I think that the government ought to exercise great caution when limiting or placing strings on the access of its populace to tools.
I agree. The problem is handguns. I have relatives in Wyoming, the most red-state in the Union, and *they* say handguns creep them out, even though they're armed to the teeth every other way.

Still, I liked the registery because I have a deep and personal attachment to mine, and I want to be able to get them back if they're stolen.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
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Vernon, B.C.
I simply do not see long guns as a huge risk to public safety, any more so than any other tool that people use. And I think that the government ought to exercise great caution when limiting or placing strings on the access of its populace to tools.

Right on Karrie. Hey, I think it would be much cheaper to deal with the drug problem then trying to account for every gun (and it's owner) and to my mind the drug problem is 100 times worse than the gun problem, not to mention when cleaning up the drug problem that would take care of a lot of "illegal" guns, but would leave the "legal" ones alone. I've been told on good authority (knew a cop or two in my last hometown) the cops already know who the majority of the drug pushers are & it would be absolutely no problem apprehending them- but to no avail as the judges just turn them loose. I say lets band together write letters, attend meetings, break knee caps (hee hee, I'm really too old for that) and rid us of the drug problem.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
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They're not. Part of my childhood was spent growing up on a farm, and the weapons we had were vital for all kinds of situations. Mostly it was the 22.
I agree. The problem is handguns. I have relatives in Wyoming, the most red-state in the Union, and *they* say handguns creep them out, even though they're armed to the teeth every other way.

Still, I liked the registery because I have a deep and personal attachment to mine, and I want to be able to get them back if they're stolen.
First handguns had to be registered a long time before C-68
And then, you might not rcognize that rifle or shotgun of yours after some wannabe gang banger has cut off the barrel and the stock to make it more easily hidden:-(
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
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I love that anecdote, but I can't figure out why "some cabin in Northern Sask." - he should be in some igloo on the north end of Ellemere Island with a box of matches and a small can of mosquito dope.
Well, there were no roads in or out. Transportation was by pontooned aircraft. The territory had a reputation for lots of cranky Crees fighting and killing each other. It was a real Dudly Doright situation. I heard he spent most of his time patrolling for claim-jumpers.
Moral of your story is - it is impossible to fully protect ourselves against everybody.
I know, and I'm just trying to get my head around the picture of that being the kind'a guy required to enforce a registery.

I mean, crumb, I know of at least one case where someone brought an elephant gun into the city, and for some reason the cops had a reason to confiscate it, and I know it ended up in one of the cops' personal collection. (City cops; not RCMP.)

Hmm... it's too bad we can't have all weapons chipped like Ottawa requires of pets. Some part of the gun where taking the chip out would disable it as a weapon.

Of course someone would figure out how to get around that, but at least the cops would know they're dealing with a criminal if they find an un-chipped or falsely chipped weapon, and yes I know that's probably unfeasible given the number of guns out there and what it might require engineering-wise, but I'm just thinking out-loud, okay?

It's just that I have friends from the Netherlands, and their thinking about their gun registry is very simple in a Dutch kind'a way, which is that their cops feel like they can presume they're dealing with a criminal if they find someone with an unregistered weapon.

I've been told on good authority (knew a cop or two in my last hometown) the cops already know who the majority of the drug pushers are & it would be absolutely no problem apprehending them- but to no avail as the judges just turn them loose.
I remember when Trudeau declared the War Measures Act, the cops in my part of the country went on a pom busting every drug pusher they knew to be there but which they'd had their hands tied against under the normal rules.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Right on Karrie. Hey, I think it would be much cheaper to deal with the drug problem then trying to account for every gun (and it's owner) and to my mind the drug problem is 100 times worse than the gun problem, not to mention when cleaning up the drug problem that would take care of a lot of "illegal" guns, but would leave the "legal" ones alone. I've been told on good authority (knew a cop or two in my last hometown) the cops already know who the majority of the drug pushers are & it would be absolutely no problem apprehending them- but to no avail as the judges just turn them loose. I say lets band together write letters, attend meetings, break knee caps (hee hee, I'm really too old for that) and rid us of the drug problem.


From what I understand it costs approx 4 mil to run the registry -

How much did it was either Alberta or Manitoba spend trying to nail some Hells Angels only to have have case thrown out.

More than 4 mil.

And the drug war is more hopeless than Vietnam ever was, will be or would continue to be if they fought another 30 years.
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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Just out of curiosity, why are people so opposed to registering whose weapons are whose?

Are they shy about it? Do they feel like it puts them in the same league as a sex offender?

To me, I liked the idea that it be made official and clear that those weapons are mine.

What in the world is so freaking people out about it?

REad post #58

Hmm... well, personally I liked the idea of a registry, because I'm kind'a attached to my weapons. I grew up with them, and we've had some serious adventures together, and if they were stolen and found I'd want to be able to get them back, but, having read some of Colpy's comments, I'm starting to think the act might have been badly written.

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. I honestly can't count the number of times someone came up with a good idea, and by the time the legislators had finished doing their committee thing on it, it had not only been watered down, but it had actually become counter-productive (strange thing about committees is there's an inverse relationship between the number of heads on it and the quality of thinking that comes out).

So... *sigh*... I guess I'd better actually read the act.

But just so you know, if there is a problem with it, I'm not going to complain to the MP. MPs are mostly colour-blind used-car salesmen in bad checkered suits. Something like that gets taken to a Senator. That's what they're there for.


Well crumb... if you're going to factor in the year-to-year staffing costs, *any* program will be in the "billions and still rising" category.

Didn't the CACP report imply that it was saving them money?

Now your getting the idea. It is not registering that we object to so much as to how the bill was drafted, the amount of money wasted and the rights given to bureaucrats/police to invade your home to see if you are obeying the letter of the law. Kiddie Porn producers have more rights than rifle owners. Note that most of the rules on possession and storage were written by someone that has never been closer to a hunting rifle that a movie. Then there is the small and insignificant;-)matter of criminals still don't register their automatic handguns. Were I grew up nearly everyone kept a loaded rifle over the back door and most left rifles in their trucks during hunting season. Never had a problem. Now ordinary people are being made into criminals because they are not following the dictates of some bureaucrat.
Comparing rifles to vehicles is something gun haters keep bringing up but it is not relevant. Vehicles are registered once and only licensed if you drive them on public roads. It is more of a tax than anything and sofar the government has not made certain types of currently registered vehicles illegal and confiscated them like they did to previously licensed restricted weapons. Now the only people I know with prohibited weapons are the ones that were either smart enough not to register them or are licensed collectors. And the rule for collectors are ridiculous. I don't know any criminals so not sure what they have but I bet they didn't register them either.