Whats your take on Unions?

[countryboy]

This is where responsible government steps in and shuts the borders to capital flight. Now you know what "free trade" means=free capital. Now in the old days that capital stayed where it was earned, within reason according to regulation, use of national and regional markets had a price, use of the regional and national infrastructure (roads, education, police, work force) had a price, all that's virtually free to corporations now.
Now that the cookie jar is getting empty and the industrial base has been destroyed and any social direction totally gone, recovery will be impossible without the draconian jack boots phase. A union member is a shareholder JlM, labour is the superior form of capital, labour is the source of all wealth.

DB, I beg to differ with you, especially on your point about "labour is the superior form of capital." I don't think so, at least not in our country and many others like it. Labour (I assume you mean employees of the organization) are part of the team that makes the entire enterprise work. Without it, there would be no company.

But, it's one part of it - there are many more. If you're talking labour in the production area, somebody had to start the process that ultimately led to the production. Depending on the organization, it might have been the owner, but in many companies it is more likely a team of people who did all the legwork to determine what will be produced, how much of it, when, where the raw materials would come from, how much they would cost, how they would be shipped and staged, where the shipments of finished goods would go, how would they be shipped, in what quantities, at what price, and much, much more.

All of these functions are necessary to keep a manufacturing company going, and they don't happen automatically. It takes people to do it....many different kinds of people with many different skills. And, it takes a management team to plan it all and keep it going successfully.

The Soviet Union tried to focus on the power of labour as being the driving force behind their economy, but it proved to be unrealistic and unworkable. They couldn't even feed their people properly because they seemed to have overlooked some key items such as how to get the food products from the field to the consumer.

I think it's more realistic to take a look at the entire process (or big picture) of how things work. Nothing wrong with supporting labour as it is an important piece of that picture, but it's only one piece.

And, I don't think our industrial base has been "destroyed" at all. It's taken some hits, but that means that adaptations will have to take place to keep things moving along successfully. Canada has some pretty impressive production capacity and capabilities in all parts of the country.

 

[JLM]

This is where responsible government steps in and shuts the borders to capital flight. Now you know what "free trade" means=free capital. Now in the old days that capital stayed where it was earned, within reason according to regulation, use of national and regional markets had a price, use of the regional and national infrastructure (roads, education, police, work force) had a price, all that's virtually free to corporations now.
Now that the cookie jar is getting empty and the industrial base has been destroyed and any social direction totally gone, recovery will be impossible without the draconian jack boots phase. A union member is a shareholder JlM, labour is the superior form of capital, labour is the source of all wealth.

"Responsible Government" steps in"- Ooooooooooh, not sure if I like that. "Shuts the borders to capital flight"........Does that have anything to do with me not being able to move MY money around as I see fit?

 

[petros]

You've said quite a bit already, Dixie and so far you make sense. I'm not sure just how high a regard Unions have for shareholders, but if they are risking their money for less than 6 or 7%, they are going to be putting it elsewhere and good bye company, good bye Union.

Maybe the shareholders should hire some thugs to smash knee caps?

 

[JLM]

Maybe the shareholders should hire some thugs to smash knee caps?

You save that until everything else fails..........................:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[petros]

You save that until everything else fails..........................:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

It was smashed knee caps, long hours and low pay and deadly conditions that started unions in the first place.

As an employer almost all my guys and gals are union and it saves me massive money a year in downtime trying to find someone who isn't lying about their qualifications and skills.

If I want to double my staff I can have people working without any training sometimes in just a few hours.

They are all professional men and women who are dedicated to doing fanstatic work efficiently and safely. Rules are tight in their feild, there is no bullying, no assholes, no dopers and no professional drunks who only produce after 2PM. I like it. They like it.

Sure there may not be knee smashing at present but many employers and employees as well like to cut corners. Who does that hurt? The share holders or the customer and employees?

If I do get any pressure or grief from the employees it usually comes in the form of safety or working environment.

Would you feel safe in an airplane that was built by people who were under paid and hated their boss?

 

[taxslave]

My take on unions. First off I have been on both sides of the fence and many times as a contractor I wished all my competitors had unions. I belong to a union now although the company I work for is non union some of the (family) group of companies are union and we work together. It helps that the union involved is not closed shop. However the whole forest sector in B.C. is facing problems that are partly union induced and many old unionists do not want to change even if the alternative is the close of their employer which strikes me as counter productive.
Because we deal with very expensive equipment in a dangerous environment it would seem to me that it is in everyones best interest to have an educated, well paid workforce. Eg. I would not let someone who cannot read a manual operate a million dollar machine, while unions expect promotions to be based on seniority rather than ability. Nor would I hire an operator for said machine that was willing to work for less than $25/hr. Most times you get what you pay for. Work scheduling is another issue where unions place unnecessary costs on operating. The trucking arm of this group has been around for fifty years now and union most of that time although part of the time the trucks with their regular drivers work through the non union company because after the last strike the US land owner refuses to let union contractors bid on their logging.
Last year though the drivers were put in the position of taking an overtime pay cut or the company would shut down because of competition from O/Os that will work for less. No OT until after ten hours and no double bubble. (It is rare to work less than ten hours)In this case the union went along with it mostly I think because the drivers would de unionize to keep their jobs.
So while unions do have their place, they must learn to adapt to changing conditions so face extinction, possibly forever taking businesses with them and killing the economy.
Government unions are a whole different story as they operate in a vaccume with no competition and no relation to market conditions. These, at least in B.C. need to be reigned in and not be permitted to become involved in politics as it creates a conflict of interest.

 

[petros]

Eg. I would not let someone who cannot read a manual operate a million dollar machine, while unions expect promotions to be based on seniority rather than ability. Nor would I hire an operator for said machine that was willing to work for less than $25/hr. Most times you get what you pay for.

In this seniority process there is no weeding out of those who can or can't operate said machine?

I'd rather have an experienced illiterate sew the buttons on my pants than an over educated or illiterate first timer.

 

[petros]

Ever heard of CLAC? It's not a union but it will hire anyone (preferably born agains) and put the inexpeienced in dangers way or using or repairing equipment that has nothing to do with their true skill set.

CLAC is a dangerous entity that is going to do a lot of damage if not stopped ASAP.

 

[darkbeaver]

DB, I beg to differ with you, especially on your point about "labour is the superior form of capital." I don't think so, at least not in our country and many others like it. Labour (I assume you mean employees of the organization) are part of the team that makes the entire enterprise work. Without it, there would be no company.

But, it's one part of it - there are many more. If you're talking labour in the production area, somebody had to start the process that ultimately led to the production. Depending on the organization, it might have been the owner, but in many companies it is more likely a team of people who did all the legwork to determine what will be produced, how much of it, when, where the raw materials would come from, how much they would cost, how they would be shipped and staged, where the shipments of finished goods would go, how would they be shipped, in what quantities, at what price, and much, much more.

All of these functions are necessary to keep a manufacturing company going, and they don't happen automatically. It takes people to do it....many different kinds of people with many different skills. And, it takes a management team to plan it all and keep it going successfully.

The Soviet Union tried to focus on the power of labour as being the driving force behind their economy, but it proved to be unrealistic and unworkable. They couldn't even feed their people properly because they seemed to have overlooked some key items such as how to get the food products from the field to the consumer.

I think it's more realistic to take a look at the entire process (or big picture) of how things work. Nothing wrong with supporting labour as it is an important piece of that picture, but it's only one piece.

And, I don't think our industrial base has been "destroyed" at all. It's taken some hits, but that means that adaptations will have to take place to keep things moving along successfully. Canada has some pretty impressive production capacity and capabilities in all parts of the country.

Any work performed is labour, it dosn't matter if it's intellectual or manual, it (labour) is the prime source of wealth. All the gold and jewels will do you no good without a source of labour. Labour is literally the worlds most valuable commodity. The industrial base of the west left for China twenty years ago. Check the numbers out, last time I looked the industrial capacity of the USA was eight per cent of what it had been in the fiftys and sixtys. That's clothing furniture most of the cars much of the food and all of the electronics add the fuels to that list. What do you hope to use to stage a recovery in the west. I've seen estimates of two decades to rebuild industrial capacity in the west.
Labour is thee one piece of the big picture that you cannot do without.

 

[petros]

Labour is literally the worlds most valuable commodity.

Labour is 2nd. Food is No. 1 No food, no labour.

 

[darkbeaver]

Labour is 2nd. Food is No. 1 No food, no labour.

Labour made and or picked the food. Somebody got to labour to reap what you sow mon. Labour comes first every time no question. You can't brush your teeth or wipe your ass without work.

 

[petros]

Labour of the plant. There was no labour until the farms produced more than the families working them needed.

Labour as commodity came far later on. it was in the 20th century that industry finally employed more than agriculture. It's a pretty new thing and is already evolving from industrial falling second to information.

 

[Dixie Cup]

It was smashed knee caps, long hours and low pay and deadly conditions that started unions in the first place.

As an employer almost all my guys and gals are union and it saves me massive money a year in downtime trying to find someone who isn't lying about their qualifications and skills.

If I want to double my staff I can have people working without any training sometimes in just a few hours.

They are all professional men and women who are dedicated to doing fanstatic work efficiently and safely. Rules are tight in their feild, there is no bullying, no assholes, no dopers and no professional drunks who only produce after 2PM. I like it. They like it.

Sure there may not be knee smashing at present but many employers and employees as well like to cut corners. Who does that hurt? The share holders or the customer and employees?

If I do get any pressure or grief from the employees it usually comes in the form of safety or working environment.

Would you feel safe in an airplane that was built by people who were under paid and hated their boss?

Point taken. Since you have a "union" shop, how are promotions made? As mentioned in a previous post, is it via senority or qualifications and work ethics?
My experience has been the former rather than the latter. What's yours?

 

[darkbeaver]

Labour of the plant. There was no labour until the farms produced more than the families working them needed.

Labour as commodity came far later on. it was in the 20th century that industry finally employed more than agriculture. It's a pretty new thing and is already evolving from industrial falling second to information.

There was no farms until labour built them. There was nothing before someone laboured to make it real. Right from day one, you want to eat you got to do the work of gathering and hunting down the food and you have to labour to build a leanto over you're head.
Then one day a long long time ago in a place far far away some lazy guy sat on a rock and watched the local labour picking dinner and arrived at the fact , by some unknown avenue or agent or whatever, that picking and eating were incontrovertibly connected directly by sweat and that you didn't have to do the picking if you played your cards/club smart. The details are shrouded in the fog of antiquity. So , just to reiterate, labour is thee prime active mover and uncontestably the only source of wealth there is. When we buy anything we buy labour.You got a heap of gold it's worthless untill you convert it into labour or tthe products of labour, be it art works fast cars or designer drugs to make your plumbing bigger and better. Maby that's a bit Marxian but it's the truuf. so hep me dog

 

[TenPenny]

In my experience, he is NOT the exception but the rule. He is just my "current" experience. Like others I have experienced before, he's simply a good "business man" who has not only his family but my family interests at heart.

Sounds similar to the place I work; we have about 12 employees; we are all basically given the freedom to get the job done, on the assumption that we know what we are doing. At the end of the year, as long as the company has met the ROI target set by the owner, the employees will share equally in a pot consisting of 1/2 the remaining profit.

 

[L Gilbert]

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Gov'ts are too chicken to hold businesses accountable for treating Canadians properly, so we have unions. Some unions take their job seriously and others abuse it. If all companies treated employees well and all governments treated people well, we wouldn't need unions.
I think a lot of unions have overextended their influence.

 

[TenPenny]

Ever heard of CLAC? It's not a union but it will hire anyone (preferably born agains) and put the inexpeienced in dangers way or using or repairing equipment that has nothing to do with their true skill set.

CLAC is a dangerous entity that is going to do a lot of damage if not stopped ASAP.

Oh yeah, CLAC had a bunch of guys here in Saint John last summer. It was ugly.

 

[darkbeaver]

Point taken. Since you have a "union" shop, how are promotions made? As mentioned in a previous post, is it via senority or qualifications and work ethics?
My experience has been the former rather than the latter. What's yours?

When you get older you'll understand seniority. Time on task indicates skill in the vast majority of cases, it is therefore the most reliable indicator of expectations. Almost no one keeps an un performing worker. The peter principle applies to management and administration primarily, as I remember.

 

[TenPenny]

There was no farms until labour built them.

Well, more like there were no farms until farmers built them. A farmer is the labour and the management and the entrepreneur.

Your point about labour being so important makes it seem like having an idea and turning it into a business has no value.

 

[L Gilbert]

Labor, as in bureaucratic organisation, is different from labor, as in plowing land and growing things, Beav. The latter is more useful.