What Americans should know about Israel and probably don't.

[earth_as_one]

And let's not forget the Nazi's! The Grand Mufti and translated versions of Mein Kampf.

It bears no weight on the subject at all...

eao: Actually it doesn't. The region's million or so residents, about three quarters of which were ethnically cleansed off the land lived peacefully with their neighbors and had no involvement with Nazis. You are on the wrong contintent CB. But if you have proof of Palestinians rounding up Jews and putting them in concentration camps similar to the one in Gaza, please post references.

This is where you slide off the biscuit each and every time eao. You pick and choose what elements of history you wish to use in your constant attacks on Israel. Try reading the history of the area eao. I posted a great easy to read version around here somewhere. You want me to dig it up for ya?

eao: Yes please do. Since I am referencing Jewish Israeli historians to back up my points, perhaps you could reference Muslim Palestinian historians to back up your points. Or how about any reputable historian who has published a peer reviewed paper recently?

Tell me again why I shouldn't believe you support terrorists and terrorist regimes, with your selective silence and selective acknowledgment of historical facts.

Personal attacks aren't a proper form of debate. Simply accusing me of something without backing it up with examples doesn't prove your point. Either make your point with logic backed up with references as I have or debate my points using your own references and logic.

C'mon CB, you've been here long enough that I shouldn't have to tutor you.

Trex:

They should know that racism and anti-semitism is alive and and well on the Internet.
They should know that web sites will continue to subtlety spawn and accept racial hatreds.
They should know Stormfront is still accepting and promoting like minded individuals.

But hey, its all freedom of speech.
Group hug time.

Typical statements of a lazy Israeli apologist.

Please quote an example of an anti-Semitic statement I've made, Trex. Criticizing the Zionist State of Israel's oppression and injustice regarding their treatment of Palestinians is hardly anti-Semitic. Many of Israel's most vocal critics and many of my references are Jews and Israelis. But to address your accusations squarely, I have no problems with Jews or Judaism. In fact recently I've joined a Jewish group which is actively raising awareness of the problems caused by the Zionist State of Israel. I fully support their goals and objectives, signed their petitions and sent off copies of their emails to American and Canadian political leaders.

Being against ethnic cleansing, using chemical weapons against children, blocking humanitarian food and medical aid and causing disease and malnutrition, war crimes and crimes against humanity.... isn't anti-semitic. I can't see how you defending these things makes you pro-Jewish.

 

[CDNBear]

Personal attacks aren't a proper form of debate. Either you make a point and back it up with references or logic like I have or debate my points.

It's not a personal attack there oh sensitive one. Not like yours on me in your other thread. Oh ya, that was ok, because you were doing it and it supported your agenda.

And you haven't the grey matter to tutor me eao.

You're selective eao, very selective, about what registers as fact and what you will even allow past your eyes.

eao: Actually it doesn't. The region's million or so residents, about three quarters of which were ethnically cleansed off the land lived peacefully with their neighbors and had no involvement with Nazis. You are on the wrong contintent CB. But if you have proof of Palestinians rounding up Jews and putting them in concentration camps similar to the one in Gaza, please post references.

Actually it bears much weight, if one actually gave a rats ass about the real issues at play here.

eao: Yes please do. Since I am referencing Jewish Israeli historians to back up my points, perhaps you could reference Muslim Palestinian historians to back up your points. Or how about any reputable historian who has published a peer reviewed paper recently?

The British under the Balfour Decloration attempted to set up self governing institutions in palestine, in an attempt to appease both sides. And control their own interests.

The Arabs would have no part of anything involving Jews and rioted and set up on the Jewish inhabitants. Thus creating the need for the creation of Haganah.

So guess what eao. Your buddies, the people you perpetually claim are innocent Palestinians, that never hurt anyone. Were in fact the ones that started this whole mess. Then perpetuate it. With of course, the mindless meanderings of people like you. People who condone, with their silence on Arab atrocities and constant whining about Israel.

Your cut and pastes do you no good, when you don't actually understand what you cut and paste.

BTW. After your comments towards me, about me, after the conversations we've had in PM. I have no respect for you at all anymore. I will give you no accord here. You are without a doubt, by your actions, as culpable as those that would launch rockets into Israel. You just don't have to run from the school, after the triggers pulled.

 

[Zzarchov]

Please EAO, let us know 1.) Why religion matters to a historians accuracy (he either is or isn't)
2.) What muslim majority nations allow free and open historical research so we can appease your nature?

 

[petros]

How many of you knew all this death over 65 odd years could have been avoided with the help of Stalin of all people?

Uncle Joe offered Birobidzhan Siberia as The Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Kinda in the middle of no-where but in reality would have been like beig handed the Yukon pre gold rush.

 

[Colpy]

EAO said

Being against ethnic cleansing, using chemical weapons against children, blocking humanitarian food and medical aid and causing disease and malnutrition, war crimes and crimes against humanity.... isn't anti-semitic. I can't see how you defending these things makes you pro-Jewish.

So, I can assume then, that you were completely supported the invasion of Iraq.........because Saddam Hussein was guilty of all these things in spades.....and he killed people by the tens and hundreds of thousands.......

But somehow I doubt that you WERE a supporter of the invasion of Iraq.

The problem, EAO, is that you are simply not consistent. Israel grants rights to its Arab residents, they vote, they have representation in the Knesset.......even if all your criticisms of Israeli actions were perfectly accurate (and they are FAR from that) Israel only killed 966 civilians in a 22 day war with their actual enemies.....

Yet I hear not a peep from you about the (at least) 300,000 civilians dead in darfur.....the 20,000 dead in Zimbabwe from Cholera, the hundreds of thousands dead in North Korea from starvation, .....instead you simply indulge in an orgy of criticism of western societies....Israel and the USA, primarily.

Why is that?

They are us.

Why focus on our friends, instead of our enemies?

 

[Colpy]

How many of you knew all this death over 65 odd years could have been avoided with the help of Stalin of all people?

Uncle Joe offered Birobidzhan Siberia as The Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Kinda in the middle of no-where but in reality would have been like beig handed the Yukon pre gold rush.

Well, that's lovely........except Uncle Joe was a worse murderer than Adolph himself.....he regularly indulged in genocidal orgies.....excet he didn't focus on a single people, he hated everybody equally.

Except Georgians.

 

[earth_as_one]

Please EAO, let us know 1.) Why religion matters to a historians accuracy (he either is or isn't)
2.) What muslim majority nations allow free and open historical research so we can appease your nature?

1) References to Muslim/Arab historians would be discounted by people like you as anti-Semitic propaganda, regardless of accuracy. Referencing Jewish Israeli historians to make the same point eliminates this tactic.

2) I would accept any reputable Muslim/Arab historian who has recently written a peer reviewed paper on this subject from any country who backs up your viewpoint. Most raw information regarding Israel's early years is in British and Israeli government archives. Arab/Muslim historians live in both Israel and the UK. I suggest you start looking for you Arab Muslim historian in these countries.


More diversionary arguments Colpy?

...somehow I doubt that you WERE a supporter of the invasion of Iraq.

...Yet I hear not a peep from you about the (at least) 300,000 civilians dead in darfur.....the 20,000 dead in Zimbabwe from Cholera, the hundreds of thousands dead in North Korea from starvation, .....instead you simply indulge in an orgy of criticism of western societies....Israel and the USA, primarily...

But I'll answer them. I was against the Iraq invasion.

Iraq was not a credible WMD threat and all remaining WMD issues were within months of being resolved peacefully:
Security Council 7 March 2003

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

The Iraq war could not be justified as a humanitarian intervention:
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/pdfid/402ba99f4.pdf

15 years before the 2003 invasion when Iraq was actually using chemical weapons against civilians with US government support, I was in favor of an arms embargo and other sanctions against Iraq.
Democracy Now! | Halabja: How Bush Sr. Continued to Support Saddam After the 1988 Gassing of Thousands And Bush Jr. Used it As a Pretext For War 15 Years Later

Its been 6 years Colpy and you still haven't figured out you were conned into supporting a war crime.
Lessons of Iraq war underscore importance of UN Charter - Annan

Darfur:

eao: I agree with Canada`s approach to Darfur. Provide money, and logistical support for other nations to send in peacekeepers. We can`t take an active role in every conflict. Sometimes we have to play a supporting role.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/82496-darfur-2.html#post1065156

I've been consistent:

Using chemical weapons is a war crime:
YouTube - Cairo hospitals treat Gaza's war-scarred children -25 Jan 09

Soldiers deliberately shooting unarmed civilians is a war crime:
IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement - Haaretz - Israel News

Civilians have a right to protection by authorities
B'Tselem - Settler violence - 10 Dec. '08: Hebron: Willful abandonment by security forces

Blocking humanitarian food and medical aid in order to cause disease and malnutrion is a crime against humanity.
Trapped – collective punishment in Gaza | Amnesty International

and

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Inside Gaza: Malnutrition and shortages

Back on Topic:

Zionism turned a peaceful corner of the world into a war zone more than 60 years ago.

Non-Jewish residents of Palestine have suffered more than 60 years of ethnic cleansing.

US taxpayers fund the Zionist State of Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The Zionist State of Israel is not interested in peace until it has completed its ethnic cleansing. That includes Israel, the West bank and Gaza.

Hamas respected their June 18, 2008 ceasefire obligations until the Zionist State of Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4, 2008.

The Zionist State of Israel never allowed humanitarian food and medical aid to enter Gaza freely as per their ceasefire obligation and international law.

 

[Just the Facts]

Zionism turned a peaceful corner of the world into a war zone more than 60 years ago.

Non-Jewish residents of Palestine have suffered more than 60 years of ethnic cleansing.

US taxpayers fund the Zionist State of Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I disagree with the above, I've tried to see your point of view but you have failed to support these arguments satisfactorally....but you're entitled to your opinion, I guess.

The Zionist State of Israel is not interested in peace until it has completed its ethnic cleansing. That includes Israel, the West bank and Gaza.

That's pretty out there, considering the Arab population of Israel has been increasing, Israel abandoned Gaza, and the Palestinians never bothered to decalare a state in the West Bank anyway. Where exactly, pray tell, are Palestinains being ethnically cleansed to?

Besides that, the two main Palestinian governing bodies, Fatah and Hamas, both have commited themselves to the destruction of Israel. Yes, Palestinians may be suffering from ethnic cleansing....the Palestinian attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Jews, which keeps blowing back at them.

Hamas respected their June 18, 2008 ceasefire obligations until the Zionist State of Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4, 2008.

You amuse me, EAO. This has been demonstrated numerous times to be untrue, yet you persist in declaring it. Is that an honest mistake? Hmmm. I think that makes it just a lie.

From June 24
Hamas: We want truce, despite rocket attacks - CNN.com
Hamas leaders in Gaza are still committed to a cease-fire agreement with Israel despite numerous rocket and mortar strikes Tuesday, a Hamas spokesman said.

From June 26
The rocket hit the Sderot industrial area on Thursday afternoon, exploding near a gas station and shattering the truce for a fourth time this week.
Livni: Israel should respond militarily | Israel | Jerusalem Post

From July 10
Two Qassam rockets were fired from northern Gaza towards Israel on Thursday afternoon, one of them landed near a kibbutz in the Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Council.
:::Hacked By JURM-TEAM:::

But Israel was responsible for violating the ceasefire in November. Riiiiiight. Got it.

The Zionist State of Israel never allowed humanitarian food and medical aid to enter Gaza freely as per their ceasefire obligation and international law.

Another lie. Free flow of aid was not part of the agreement. The border crossings were to be opened increasingly in graduated manner depending on the success of the ceasefire stopping the rockets.

See above for how well that worked out.

I'm pretty sure Shalit was part of the mix there somewhere too. How's he doing? Oh yeah, no one knows, not even the red cross.

 

[OkiefromMuskoki]

The ceasefire was conditional on the blockade being lifted. It never was because Israel thought it could use the blockade to put pressure on the Gazans to reject Hamas. Israel chose to "delay the full implementation" of the ceasefire unilaterally.

Clearly, it was Israel that was responsible for the breakdown of the ceasefire in spite of their spin.

 

[Colpy]

The ceasefire was conditional on the blockade being lifted. It never was because Israel thought it could use the blockade to put pressure on the Gazans to reject Hamas. Israel chose to "delay the full implementation" of the ceasefire unilaterally.

Clearly, it was Israel that was responsible for the breakdown of the ceasefire in spite of their spin.

The rockets never stopped. If you are shooting at me, I am not going to feed you.

 

[earth_as_one]

...

From June 24
Hamas: We want truce, despite rocket attacks - CNN.com
Hamas leaders in Gaza are still committed to a cease-fire agreement with Israel despite numerous rocket and mortar strikes Tuesday, a Hamas spokesman said.

From June 26
The rocket hit the Sderot industrial area on Thursday afternoon, exploding near a gas station and shattering the truce for a fourth time this week.
Livni: Israel should respond militarily | Israel | Jerusalem Post

From July 10
Two Qassam rockets were fired from northern Gaza towards Israel on Thursday afternoon, one of them landed near a kibbutz in the Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Council.
:::Hacked By JURM-TEAM:::

But Israel was responsible for violating the ceasefire in November. Riiiiiight. Got it.



Another lie. Free flow of aid was not part of the agreement. The border crossings were to be opened increasingly in graduated manner depending on the success of the ceasefire stopping the rockets.

See above for how well that worked out.

I'm pretty sure Shalit was part of the mix there somewhere too. How's he doing? Oh yeah, no one knows, not even the red cross.

JTF: Go back and reread your links. They support what I said. Hamas was not responsible for a single rocket or mortar fired at Israel from the beginning of the ceasefire until it was ended by an Israeli attack on the same day the US elected Obama. As per your link, the group which fired those rockets was the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades who are associated with Fatah, not Hamas. This militant group violated the ceasefire, not Hamas.

As I already stated, not only did Hamas not fire those rockets, they arrested those responsible:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html

BTW, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades was armed by the US and Israel when they were fighting Hamas:

Abbas to request more weapons from US - Israel News, Ynetnews

Hmmmmm????

But since you are so convinced Hamas violated the ceasefire, perhaps you can explain how Hamas locking up militants armed by the US and Israel who fired rockets at Israel is an example of a ceasefire violation.

BTW, Shalit was not part of this ceasefire agreement. Israel can secure Shalit's release anytime in exchange for a few hundred of the 10,000 or so Palestinian hostages held by Israel.

 

[earth_as_one]

The rockets never stopped. If you are shooting at me, I am not going to feed you.

That's a clear statement in favor of Israel's collective punishment of 1.5 million men, women and children.

In October 2008, only one rocket was fired at Israel from Gaza. As per my previous post Hamas was trying to prevent the rocket attacks and was 99% successful. Yet Israel blocked most international food and medical aid from reaching 1.5 million Gazans.

Blocking humanitarian food and medical aid isn't just a ceasefire violation, its also a crime against humanity.

YouTube - Gaza's children suffering from malnutrition- 8 June 08

BTW, that was June 8, 2008. Things have gotten considerably worse since then. Most likely the child in the above video has since died.

As I posted previously, Israel not only starves children, but also burns them alive with chemical weapons:
YouTube - Cairo hospitals treat Gaza's war-scarred children -25 Jan 09

Colpy, do you also support burning children alive with chemical weapons as well as starving them?

 

[earth_as_one]

More Colpy quotes:

Which means the majority of Palestinians are party to their crimes, their policy of genocide, their refusal to recognize Israel, their attacks.

So maybe you guys should stop whining about civilian deaths in Gaza, huh?

 

[Just the Facts]

As per your link, the group which fired those rockets was the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades who are associated with Fatah, not Hamas. This militant group violated the ceasefire, not Hamas.

What you're saying then is that Hamas is irrelevant and does not have the political authority to negotiate a ceasefire on Gaza's behalf. I will agree with that.

As I already stated, not only did Hamas not fire those rockets, they arrested those responsible:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html

Have these rogue terrorist groups been disarmed? As stated before, a symbolic arrest is not particularly placating.

BTW, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades was armed by the US and Israel when they were fighting Hamas:

Yes. A foolish policy that will come back to bite them for sure. To this day they are arming and training Fatah in the West Bank. Very stupid. But there you have it. Israel and the U.S. are so desperate for peace they do these things on the slightest glimmer of hope that it might make a difference and end the conflict. In the meantime, Fatah is laughing their guts out:

It is only the Palestinian Authority government, Dahlan insisted, that must "recognize" Israel - not out of conviction or sincerity, but in order to receive the needed help of the international community.

FrontPage Magazine

In other words, tell them what they want to hear so that they'll send us money. Then, when the time is right, we'll turn on them and use their generosity against them.

But since you are so convinced Hamas violated the ceasefire, perhaps you can explain how Hamas locking up militants armed by the US and Israel who fired rockets at Israel is an example of a ceasefire violation.

The ceasefire was violated from within Gaza. I don't care who violated it. It was violated by the Gaza side. End of story. This is not something I am convinced of, this is pure fact.

BTW, Shalit was not part of this ceasefire agreement. Israel can secure Shalit's release anytime in exchange for a few hundred of the 10,000 or so Palestinian hostages held by Israel

No, I'm pretty sure Shalit was part of the deal. Of course it was a fairly loosely constructed agreement. It's all academic anyway since it didn't take more than a day or two for the rockets to fly out of Gaza. Launched by Hamas or otherwise, it really makes no difference.

 

[earth_as_one]

What you're saying then is that Hamas is irrelevant and does not have the political authority to negotiate a ceasefire on Gaza's behalf. I will agree with that.

eao: What I'm saying is Hamas prevented 99% of the rockets. That's hardly irrelevant. The only faction they can't stop comletely is the one supported by the US and Israel.

Have these rogue terrorist groups been disarmed? As stated before, a symbolic arrest is not particularly placating.

eao: I imagine it would be easier for Hamas to disarm this rogue groups if they weren't being armed by the US and Israel.

Yes. A foolish policy that will come back to bite them for sure. To this day they are arming and training Fatah in the West Bank. Very stupid. But there you have it. Israel and the U.S. are so desperate for peace they do these things on the slightest glimmer of hope that it might make a difference and end the conflict.

Somehow I doubt arming and supporting a dictator and his militias against the democratically elected leaders will lead to peace.


In the meantime, Fatah is laughing their guts out:

It is only the Palestinian Authority government, Dahlan insisted, that must "recognize" Israel - not out of conviction or sincerity, but in order to receive the needed help of the international community.

FrontPage Magazine

In other words, tell them what they want to hear so that they'll send us money. Then, when the time is right, we'll turn on them and use their generosity against them.

eao: Palestinians elected Hamas because Fatah was corrupt and sold them out. Now they are being armed and funded by the US and Israel. What do you think they are going to do to the hand when it stops feeding them?

The ceasefire was violated from within Gaza. I don't care who violated it. It was violated by the Gaza side. End of story. This is not something I am convinced of, this is pure fact.

eao: I can't see how killing the people who arrest those who fire rockets at Israel will reduce or eliminate the number of rockets fired at Israel.

No, I'm pretty sure Shalit was part of the deal. Of course it was a fairly loosely constructed agreement. It's all academic anyway since it didn't take more than a day or two for the rockets to fly out of Gaza. Launched by Hamas or otherwise, it really makes no difference.

I guess you are right. When Israel lifted the blockade, Shalit would be released. We can see how close Israel came to respecting their end of the bargain above. Looks to me like the more successfull Hamas was at stopping the rocket attacks, the more Israel blocked food and medical aid from entering Gaza.

BTW, JTF, do you also support Israel's efforts to block international food and medicine aid from entering Gaza?

 

[CDNBear]

Where's the outrage eao?

Hamas police in Gaza seized thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents, the AP reports, threatening to fracture relations between the international agency that cares for most of Gaza's residents and the territory's militant rulers. A UN spokesman called the incident "absolutely unacceptable." Hamas policemen forcibly broke into an aid warehouse in Gaza City last night and confiscated 3,500 blankets and more than 4,000 food parcels—aid meant for 500 families—after UN officials refused to voluntarily hand it over to the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs, the UN says. The UN provides food, education, and health care to more than half of Gaza's residents.
Source: Associated Press

 

[earth_as_one]

I agree with you on this one CB. UNRWA should be able to operate in Gaza without interference by anyone...including Hamas or the IDF. Shortly after this incident, UNRWA was able to "convince" Hamas to return everything. Of course that story didn't make out news.

UN lifts suspension of Gaza food imports after Hamas returns stolen aid

Food awaiting distribution in UNRWA warehouse


9 February 2009 – The main United Nations relief agency responsible for feeding 900,000 Palestinian refugees in Gaza today lifted its suspension of aid imports after Hamas returned all the aid it had stolen last week.


But the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) warned that its distribution operation continued to be jeopardized by Israel’s refusal to let in materials for plastic bags, more than three weeks after the end of the devastating offensive it launched with the stated aim of halting Hamas and other rocket attacks against it.

UNRWA Director of Operations in Gaza John Ging said Hamas had returned all the aid stolen on two occasions last week, including 300 tons of food, and assured the Agency that there would not be a reoccurrence, a condition UNRWA had demanded to resume its import operations.

“Our confidence in those assurances is based on the return itself and the realization, I believe, among the leadership of Hamas that this is not acceptable to the people here in Gaza,” he told a news conference in New York by video-link from ground zero.

“We had extremely strong support from the community here who demand respect for UNRWA on the ground and have no tolerance for any theft from our resources or aid,” he said, adding that imports would resume on Wednesday since all crossings will be closed tomorrow due to Israel’s general elections.
Mr. Ging, who denied Hamas claims that some UNRWA aid was being given to Hamas rivals Fatah, voiced frustration at the limited access Israel is granting at the crossing points into Gaza, including the ban on the import of bulk plastic needed to package the food aid....

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=29827&Cr=gaza&Cr1=unrwa

Sounds like there is more to this story than the headlines indicate....

Another perspective is that in a state of emergency, governments have the authority to "commandeer" what they need. During Canada's icestorm '98, the Canadian military "commandeered" supplies and materials like generators and re-allocated them according to priorities - hospitals, nursing homes, gas stations, grocery stores... I imagine that's how Hamas would have described their "theft". But UNRWA didn't see it that way and was able to "convince" Hamas of the error of their actions. As a result Hamas returned all supplies.

So that takes care of Hamas interference in UNRWA's activities. You must be so relieved that Hamas is no longer interfering with aid to Gaza civilians.

Now what about Israel's interference in UNRWA activities in Gaza? Now than your concern for the well being of Gaza civilians is well established CB, would you care to express outrage over Israel blocking most humanitarian aid from entering Gaza in the first place? Or like Colpy, do you also support this crime against humanity?

Additionally, would you care to comment regarding Israel buring children alive with chemical weapons:

YouTube - Cairo hospitals treat Gaza's war-scarred children -25 Jan 09

Since you are so concerned about the well being of Gaza civilians, I'm sure you must have strong feelings. Please don't hold back. Please express your true feelings regarding this horrendous war crime...

 

[CDNBear]

Oh I'm not concerned eao. I've long since put to rest any concern I had for them.

In fact, I feel it safe to say, the thoughts that run through my head border on hate crimes...

I hope that settles any misconceptions you had eao.

 

[earth_as_one]

Sure does.

 

[Cannuck]

I agree with you on this one CB. UNRWA should be able to operate in Gaza without interference by anyone...including Hamas or the IDF. Shortly after this incident, UNRWA was able to "convince" Hamas to return everything. Of course that story didn't make out news.

Hmmm....interesting how the rhetoric quiets down when it is your boys. If it were the Isrealis we would probably hear something more akin to.....

Blocking humanitarian food and medical aid isn't just a ceasefire violation, its also a crime against humanity.

...but at any rate, now that it would appear that Hamas has committed (in your own words) "crimes against humanity" shouldn't we expect your response to be the same as it would be if Israel had done this? Where is the outrage? Where is your disgust?