What Americans should know about Israel and probably don't.

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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WP is not used specifically against civilians, if the enemy (who ever they are) are hiding behind civilians and killing or trying to kill your comrades in arms, then you do what ever must be done to protect your brother soldiers. What ever it takes. Civilians become what is called collateral damage, not on purpose of course. A soldiers first priority is to protect the guy to your right and left fighting with you. It is up to the defenders to make sure civilians are moved to safety or out of harms way, it is not up to the attacker. WP does not come under the catagory of Chemical Weapon.
 

OkiefromMuskoki

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Mar 18, 2009
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A soldiers first priority is to protect the guy to your right and left fighting with you.
Yup, but if he is found in violation of the Geneva Conventions he is liable
It is up to the defenders to make sure civilians are moved to safety or out of harms way, it is not up to the attacker.
Not true. It is up to the attacker to take reasonable precautions that the area is clear of civilians. A defender does not have the luxury or the time to evacuate civilians. Look at Google Earth and locate Gaza. It is one of the most heavily populated areas on earth. Combatants are certainly not going to stand ias targets in the few open fields there are.
WP does not come under the catagory of Chemical Weapon.
Nevertheless, it is a "restricted" weapon.

When one has overwhelming military power, it will use it to fight from a distance to prevent taking casualties. Unfortunately, this inevitably entails "collateral damage". The world will judge whether or not it was necessary.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Combatants are certainly not going to stand ias targets in the few open fields there are.


Then they are committing war crimes. Combatants are expected to stand as targets, its their job to be clear targets so civilians aren't accidentally hit. Thats why soldiers wear uniforms, why they dont' fight from hospitals etc.

Yes, they will lose if they fight a superior conventional army in a conventional battle, rules of war do not guarantee victory.

Because the other option is that Israel fights like they do, and they still lose, but EVERYONE dies. The rules are war are not there to protect the superpower from the insurgent, they are there to protect the insurgents countrymen from the superpower.




WP does not come under the catagory of Chemical Weapon.
Nevertheless, it is a "restricted" weapon.

Actually, no its not.

It is not in any way restricted beyond other weapons. Its restricted against targetting civilians with it, thats no different than a bullet or a knife.

The "bad part" of WP is that it burns and causes fire. If someone wants to use it primarily as an incindiary weapon, go for it.

But they could just use NAPALM instead , as its cheaper and more effective.

Again, not only is WP not a chemical weapon, it is an incindiary weapon and the only "Restriction" is not to use it on civilians, or if you signed protocol III (which most nations have not because all weapons including bullets are potentially incindiary) in civilian areas. There is no restriction about using it against military or militant forces.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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When the states and israel come knocking, run to the hills
In the case of Gaza, they are surrounded by walls with guard towers and razor wire. Gaza city itself was the war zone. Both combatants and civilians were trapped in the war zone. Preventing civilians from being able to flee a war zone may be a new kind of war crime. If Israel wanted to be compliant with international law, Gaza civilians should have been able to flee Gaza city as refugees.

Instead, the IDF picked out children and put them at the front of them as they advanced on Hamas positions and took fire:

UN accuses troops of using boy, 11, as human shield
By Donald Macintyre
Tuesday, 24 March 2009

An 11-year-old boy was used as a human shield by Israeli troops during their 22-day offensive in Gaza – including when they came under fire – according to a report by UN human rights experts published yesterday.

The report says that on 15 January, as Israeli tanks moved into Tel el Hawa in Gaza City, forces moved into a building from which families had been evacuated with personal belongings.

The 11-year-old boy was told to open the bags – one of which had a lock which a soldier shot at, though without injuring the boy, the report said. The boy was then ordered to walk in front of a group of soldiers as they moved through the neighbourhood, it added.

When the soldiers arrived at the headquarters of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, the boy was made to enter first and when the patrol was later shot at as it moved through the streets, "the boy remained in front of the group". He was released when the unit arrived at al-Quds hospital....

UN accuses troops of using boy, 11, as human shield - Middle East, World - The Independent

... they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them.

"They would make us go first, so if any fighters shot at them the bullets would hit us, not them," said 14-year-old Al'a al-Attar.

His brothers, Ali, 15, and Nafiz, 16, described how when the three of them were being led through built-up areas in their home town of *Attartra, the soldiers would order them to suddenly stop ‑ then fire their rifles over the brothers' shoulders and between their legs...

..."For a week and a half they [Israeli soldiers]lived with a family of Palestinians whose home became their stronghold." In it an officer talks openly of using the house as a base for operations while keeping the family in a downstairs room.

"At the top floor of the house we have established an improvised operational room and soldiers' bedroom, we have opened firing positions and observation points in the three additional rooms," the officer was quoted as saying. "In addition, we have established another guarding position on the entrance door of the family home."...


Palestinian brothers: Israel used us as human shields in Gaza war | World news | guardian.co.uk

and so on.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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while allegations of evil atrocities certainly catch the headlines, they are rarely true. For instance the German Empire never actually bayonetted babies, raped nuns nor crucified captured POW's in WWI.


And again, the Gazan refugees are free to flee, not flee into a nation they are at war with.

If you honestly believe any country is obliged to let waves of enemy forces population (civilians, out of uniform soldiers, spies, commandos) waltz into their nation you are daft.

Maybe Egypt should have let them in, but Egypt doesn't want the lunatics who run the place in their country either.
 

OkiefromMuskoki

Nominee Member
Mar 18, 2009
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Here Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War is a link to
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War[/FONT]


Here Geneva Conventions: Does Anybody Remember? is a link to some specific items

Chapter IV: Precautionary Measures
Article 57: Precautions in Attack

  1. In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects.
  2. With respect to attacks, the following precautions shall be taken:
    1. those who plan or decide upon an attack shall:
      1. do everything feasible to verify that the objectives to be attacked are neither civilians nor civilian objects and are not subject to special protection but are military objectives within the meaning of paragraph 2 of Article 52 and that it is not prohibited by the provisions of this Protocol to attack them;
      2. refrain from deciding to launch any attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;
    2. an attack shall be canceled or suspended if it becomes apparent that the objective is not a military one or is subject to special protection or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;
  3. My bold but this indicates the onus is on the attacker. The judges at the war crimes trial will have to decide whether or not it was "excessive".
Here White phosphorus (weapon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a link to Article 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons

To quote a part of it

The Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, not the Chemical Weapons Convention, goes on, in its Protocol III, to prohibit the use of all air-delivered incendiary weapons against civilian populations, or for indiscriminate incendiary attacks against military forces co-located with civilians.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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How about pictures Z? Will that convince you?

http://attendingtheworld.files.word...stinian-boy-as-human-shield-by-nazionists.jpg

http://www.stopdebezetting.com/images/wereldpers/resize/ATT00345.jpg



How about movies?

YouTube - IDF Using Human Shields "Children "( Caught On Tape Again )

YouTube - Israel IDF Using Human Shields ( More Proof Again )

Still in denial?
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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Would it be better if they just released him and started shooting at those throwing stones?

Just about says it all again. Israel did not start this war, but they will finish it.

"Israel is a real nation, unlike the manufactured entity calling itself “palestine”, which is not a real nation.
Israel is a legitimate and sovereign nation voted imprimatur into the United Nations in 1948. It may be a surprise to you, but 5′8″ tall Jews didn’t just magically or manually uproot “palestinians” from their homes. Palestinian Arabs voluntarily left their homes to flee elsewhere by the call from their leaders - the same leaders who commandeered the call to attack Palestinian Jews - and attack Palestinian Jews is exactly what the Arabs did. Seven nations attacked Palestinian Jews on on May 14 and May 15, 1948: Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen.
Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared Israel were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property when the victorious Arabs won the war.
When the war ended, Israel won and survived despite a 1% loss of it’s entire population. Those Arabs who did not run away became today’s Israeli Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of “Palestinian Arab refugees.”
http://smoothstoneblog.com/about
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
while allegations of evil atrocities certainly catch the headlines, they are rarely true. For instance the German Empire never actually bayonetted babies, raped nuns nor crucified captured POW's in WWI.


And again, the Gazan refugees are free to flee, not flee into a nation they are at war with.

If you honestly believe any country is obliged to let waves of enemy forces population (civilians, out of uniform soldiers, spies, commandos) waltz into their nation you are daft.

Maybe Egypt should have let them in, but Egypt doesn't want the lunatics who run the place in their country either.

Zzarchov you should go help your brothers now, they need you. Israel isn't a country, it's a last stand, for some, and Palestine for the rest.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
WP is not used specifically against civilians, if the enemy (who ever they are) are hiding behind civilians and killing or trying to kill your comrades in arms, then you do what ever must be done to protect your brother soldiers. What ever it takes. Civilians become what is called collateral damage, not on purpose of course. A soldiers first priority is to protect the guy to your right and left fighting with you. It is up to the defenders to make sure civilians are moved to safety or out of harms way, it is not up to the attacker. WP does not come under the catagory of Chemical Weapon.

Congradulations ironlungs you have won The Completely Full of **** Memorial Award.:lol:
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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"WP does not come under the catagory of Chemical Weapon."

Nobody is claiming that. It is a weapon thet is banned from being used where civilians are gathered.

What is that, your 20th or so time of claiming what it is not? Speak up, what is it?
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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NETANYAHU AT HIS BEST

Even those who aren't particularly sympathetic to Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from this interview with British Television during the retaliation against Hamas' shelling
of Israel.


The interviewer asked him: "How come so many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis?" (A nasty question if there ever was one!)
Netanyahu: "Are you sure that you want to start asking in that direction?" Interviewer: (Falling into the trap) "Why not?"
Netanyahu: "Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the war was caused by Germany's aggression. And in response to the German blitz on London, the British wiped out the entire city of Dresden, burning to death more German civilians than the number of people killed in Hiroshima. Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen, some of the bombs missed their target and fell on a Danish children's hospital, killing 83 little children. Perhaps you have another question?"
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]


Benjamin Netanyahu gave another interview and was asked about Israel's occupation of Arab lands.
[/FONT]

His response was, "It's our land".

The reporter (CNN or the like) was stunned. Netanyahu then cited information that doesn't always get fair and accurate reporting from the media. Here are some overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation. These were compiled by a non-Jewish university professor:


BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY...(It takes just 1.5 minutes to read!)
1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two thousand years before the rise
of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it
their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10 The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee
group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an
apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.


 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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You should have posted your source IS. This time your pro-Israel propaganda originates from a right wing Christian religious zealot.

John Mark Ministries
The Brief Facts On The Israeli Conflict Today....


More crap from the same source:
THE BEST ARTICLE ON A CHRISTIAN APPROACH TO HOMOSEXUALITY...
A Consistent Biblical approach to '(homo)sexuality' by Keith Dyer

Placing 'Bible' and 'homosexuality' together in the one sentence always provokes questions. Some questioners are genuinely puzzled, some are angry: 'Why do we continue to ask what the Bible says about 'homosexuality' when the few verses that do seem to refer to it are very clear in their meaning (particularly Lev 18:22; 20:13 and Rom 1:26-28)?'

'Surely the incessant re-opening of this question is evidence itself of the moral bankruptcy of the Western church as it tries to twist the 'plain sense' of Scripture to legitimate its own selfish and lustful behaviour?' 'How can we possibly justify the time spent on discussing the 'deviant sexuality of a tiny minority' in the face of such major human disasters as hunger, poverty, war, genocide and environmental degradation?' 'How can we fail to see that opening the door to 'homosexuality' in the Church will undermine the Christian family and begin a slippery slide that will lead inevitably to paedophilia, bestiality and all kinds of immorality?'
A Consistent Biblical Approach to '(Homo)sexuality' (Keith Dyer)

and similar trash...
 
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earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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In rebuttal, I'll reference a far more objective source which is also a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate
The Amnesty International 2009 Annual Report
RE: Israel and the Occupied Territories

Israeli forces launched a military offensive on an unprecedented scale – code-named “Operation Cast Lead” – on 27 December in the Gaza Strip, killing many civilians and destroying homes and other civilian property. Earlier in the year there had been a marked upsurge in killings of civilians and others by both Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) before a ceasefire was agreed in June (see Palestinian Authority entry). Some 70 children were among the 425 Palestinians killed in the first half of the year. In addition to the large-scale destruction of homes and property in the Gaza Strip, Israeli forces also destroyed scores of Palestinian homes in the West Bank and in Bedouin villages in the south of Israel. Throughout the year, the Israeli army maintained stringent restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the OPT, including a blockade on the Gaza Strip, which caused an unprecedented level of humanitarian hardship and virtually imprisoned the entire population of 1.5 million. This was further exacerbated by the Israeli offensive launched on 27 December. Hundreds of patients with serious medical conditions requiring treatment not available in local hospitals were refused passage out of Gaza; several died. Hundreds of students could not travel to their universities abroad because they could not leave Gaza, where many fields of study are not available. Most of Gaza’s inhabitants depended on international aid, but the Israeli blockade hampered the ability of UN agencies to provide assistance and services. In the West Bank the movement of Palestinians was severely curtailed by some 600 Israeli checkpoints and barriers, and by the 700km fence/wall which the Israeli army continued to build mostly inside the West Bank. The expansion of illegal Israeli settlements on seized Palestinian land increased to a level not seen since 2001. Israeli soldiers and settlers who committed serious abuses against Palestinians, including unlawful killings, assaults and attacks against property, enjoyed impunity in most cases. Hundreds of Palestinians were arrested by Israeli forces; reports of torture and other ill-treatment were frequent, but investigations were rare. Some 8,000 Palestinians remained in Israeli prisons, many after unfair military trials.

To find out more about:
Gaza blockade and other restrictions fuelling humanitarian hardship

Killings of unarmed Palestinian civilians

Military justice system

Torture and other ill-treatment

Increase in violence by settlers

Impunity

Forced evictions, destruction of Palestinian homes and expansion of illegal Israeli settlements

Refugees, asylum-seekers and migrants

Prisoners of conscience – Israeli conscientious objectors

Amnesty International visits

Amnesty International reports

Follow this link:
Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories | Amnesty International Report 2009

By the way, how many Nobel Peace Prizes or international awards have any of your sources won IS?
 

Just the Facts

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By the way, how many Nobel Peace Prizes or international awards have any of your sources won IS?

Here's one:

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
Yasser Arafat, then head of the PLO and PA President - Private speech entitled "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996


Still, nothing in your posts or mine that contradict the 20 points in IS's post. You may as well post e=mc2. Means nothing. There was no rebuttal.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Where did you get that quote JTF? Middle East Facts or another one of your pro-Israel anti-Arab hate sites?

Anyone capable of critical thought should be able to see through your hate propaganda which attempts to justify theft and murder.

Even a child knows that theft and murder is wrong.

I believe actions speak louder than words. Anyone who reads AI's 2009 Annual Report on Israel and the Occupied Territories can see that Israel's actions last year included war crimes and crimes against humanity, just like they did in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005... 1948.

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories | Amnesty International Report 2009

Amnesty International Report 2008 •

Amnesty International Report 2007 • Israel and the Occupied Territories

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...46f-11dd-8743-d305bea2b2c7/pol100012006en.pdf

Each year I keep thinking there's no way Israel can be more cruel and inhumane to their victims. Yet somehow, Israel has consistently sunk lower and lower. Sooner or later Israel's actions will cross a threshold where Americans will finally say, "Enough!" and stop financing Israel's cruelty.
 
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