What Americans should know about Israel and probably don't.

[ironsides]

There can be no peace between Hamas, Iran, Syria and a multitude of smaller organizations with Israel, because as in the movie "Independence Day" Hamas and the others will settle only for the complete destruction of Israel.

Hamas arrested 3 people for firing 2 rockets at Israel. Hmmm out of hundreds fired. Not what I would call a good faith gesture, or big whoop. As for Shalit, Hamas wants all prisoners released for him. Bet the prisoners are being treated better than he is.

I have no idea why Israel keeps accepting U.N. brokered ceasefires, they never work. As Colpy said, "The rockets never stopped. If you are shooting at me, I am not going to feed you."

No country wants the people in Gaza. They were kicked out of neighboring countries for a reason.

 

[petros]

Zionists are just looking to steal the multi-coloured thong of power. Long live the gonch messiah!

 

[Zzarchov]

Honestly, the more outright lies and blatant attempts to pull on heartstrings with sappy songs and slideshows of sad images I see for Gaza,

the more my heart turns to ice for their plight. I help the homeless because I have empathy, because its what I should do. But when I see "homeless activists" come harass me with accusatory glances about how I luxuriate while the homeless suffer and feed me garbage statistics (that are false) and statements about their suffering (to feed their own ego about being an avenging angle), I just say "********" and go spend my time and money on a nice lunch out. Takes lot of effort sometimes to ignore those people and drop a 5 in a paper cup rather than a timmies till.

 

[Just the Facts]

I imagine it would be easier for Hamas to disarm this rogue groups if they weren't being armed by the US and Israel.

Can't argue with that.

Palestinians elected Hamas because Fatah was corrupt and sold them out. Now they are being armed and funded by the US and Israel. What do you think they are going to do to the hand when it stops feeding them?

I already answered that. You are absolutely correct, the desire for peace on the Israeli side causes them to do foolish things in desperate hope.

I guess you are right. When Israel lifted the blockade, Shalit would be released. We can see how close Israel came to respecting their end of the bargain above.

The crossings were opened many times. They kept being closed because of rockets being fired.

Looks to me like the more successfull Hamas was at stopping the rocket attacks, the more Israel blocked food and medical aid from entering Gaza.

Yeah, I've seen you say that before. It makes no sense.

BTW, JTF, do you also support Israel's efforts to block international food and medicine aid from entering Gaza?

I support rational people putting down their weapons and agreeing to put aside their differences in order to build a better life for their children. When you provoke war, you get war, and people suffer and die. This is not a profound revelation EAO. The Palestinians need to put aside their hatred and live side by side with Israel. Otherwise the war and suffering will continue. It's really that simple.

 

[Johnnny]

We shouldnt hate america for supporting israel, dont we support an independent kosavo?

 

[earth_as_one]

Hmmm....interesting how the rhetoric quiets down when it is your boys. If it were the Isrealis we would probably hear something more akin to.....

...but at any rate, now that it would appear that Hamas has committed (in your own words) "crimes against humanity" shouldn't we expect your response to be the same as it would be if Israel had done this? Where is the outrage? Where is your disgust?

I can see war crimes committed by both sides. You only see the crimes committed by Hamas. You've never said anything negative regarding Israel's blatant war crimes or crimes against humanity.

You attempt to portray my criticism of Israel's use of chemical weapons to burn children alive as proof of my support for Hamas is ridiculous. I no more support Hamas's war crimes than I support Israel's war crimes and your criticism of me on this is more than just a little disingenuous.

But here's your chance to gain some credibility. Care to comment about the IDF's use of an 11 year old human shield as they advanced under fire on a Hamas position?

...Israel Defense Forces soldiers used an 11-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield during the war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, a group of UN human rights experts said Monday.

IDF troops ordered the boy to walk in front of soldiers being fired on in the Gaza neighborhood of Tel al-Hawa and enter buildings before them...
'IDF troops used 11-year-old boy as human shield in Gaza' - Haaretz - Israel News

How about Israel's use of CWs against civilians including children?

...Almi said the entire body of one victim was burned within an hour. It was the first time he had seen the effects of what he called a "chemical weapon"...

Video shows evidence of phosphorus bombs in Gaza | World news | guardian.co.uk

On the scale of atrocities, how do either of the above rate relative to Hamas's retracted decision to commandeer food and medicine or with Israel's nearly 2 year blockade of humanitarian food and medical aid?

 

[jimmoyer]

What's the solution Earth-as-one ?

Eradicate Israel?

Two-State Solution?

For a moment, let us no longer fight over the never-ending list of injustices.

What is your solution?

And, where will you channel your energy once the world realizes you are right and peace in Palestine is obtained?

 

[earth_as_one]

A truth commission. Amnesty for the truth.

A one state solution. Over time, make them all Israeli civilians with voting rights. So much for the zionist state of Israel. Good riddance.

If any Israeli Jews don't feel comfortable with the transition.... welcome to Canada, the US, Europe... and all the other countries who voted in favor creating this problem in the first place.

 

[jimmoyer]

Thank you Earth-As-One.

That was a direct answer, specific, concise.

And I support a two state solution, but with the proviso that the wealth of Arab oil and the West build a viable country with schools and jobs.

But your answer is making me think.

I'd love to see you start a thread on discussing the solution and its mechanics.

I'd like to see the cataloging of the never-ending injustices in a separate thread because it invites blaming each other rather than both sides invested into a solution.

 

[earth_as_one]

The point of this string was to point out that Israel has committed many horrendous atrocties and almost none are reported in the US (or Canada). Since the US finances Israel's atrocities, its important Americans know what they are getting for their money. I have confidence that if Americans knew how their tax dollars were being spent, they would demand change. Maybe knowledge alone would be enough to stop Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

...Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

US Aid to Israel and the Palestinians

 

[Zzarchov]

Actually everything is reported. You just keep saying things we know and acting like its some great hidden mystery.

You have a hard time accepting that others can see what you see and draw different conclusions.

We all make our own lot in life, and you have a hard time accepting that Palestine might be responsible for Palestines problems, even a little.

You make conflicting claims like "Hamas is not responsible for a single rocket attack during the ceasefire" and "Hamas is the democratically elected government"

Which is it? Is hamas the government responsible for its people or just another group with no negotiating power?

 

[earth_as_one]

Consider the case of Robert Dziekanski

...lawyer representing the government of Poland, the country Robert Dziekanski left to come to Canada. He died at Vancouver International airport...

...The inquiry is being followed closely in Poland...

...Polish prosecutors are investigating the incident. "If a Polish citizen dies abroad, Polish prosecutors can conduct their own investigation."....

Mountie denies story was 'cooked up'

According to your logic, Poland is entitled to bomb Canada if they determine Dziekanski was murdered.

According to my logic, Poland has to wait and see if the Canadian government takes steps to ensure justice is served. If Canada lets the officers get away with murder, then Poland could justifiably start a war over the incident. But if Canada takes the appropriate steps to ensure justice to the satisfaction of the Poland, then war is averted.

Hamas is not responsible for every murder, robbery, rape, jay-walking incident which occurs in Gaza. What they are responsible for is their own actions and as the government, the fairness of their criminal justice system.

Gaza criminals firing about a dozen rockets at Israel over a 6 month period in defiance of Hamas is not an act of war. Israel has to wait and see how Hamas reacts first. In response top the rocket attacks which killed no one and created some potholes in empty fields, Hamas arrested the criminals and threw them in prison. That would appear to be more justice than what Poland is going to get in the case of Dziekanski and indicates a sincere effort by the Hamas government to abide by the terms of the ceasefire agreement.

If Hamas fired the rockets themselves, assisted in any way or did not take steps to hold those responsible accountable for their actions, then Israel would have a case for war.

I feel that starving 1.5 million people and killing 1300 more a not reasonable or warranted. You can disagree. I'm just glad you aren't in charge of the Polish government.

 

[jimmoyer]

Earth-as-One, you have done a lot to make me see how much abuse and atrocity comes from Israel.

And you are correct that the western media here barely reports half of the stories you list.

But I'd really be curious about a psychological experiment here.

The premise is, if we can't do it, how can we expect them to do it?

Put the same energy into a thread on solutions and its mechanics on how to get there.

You answered quite directly a solution.

Informed or not informed, all of us suspect that constant blaming and fingerpointing achieves nothing but its own continued existence of hate begetting hate. In fact it becomes it's own self-fulfilling industry.

Would some have no passion if the object of their hatred is gone?

Is this barnacle like relationship of host and leech, of this symbiosis, this symbiotic relationship become its own reason for continuation.

Psychologically we repeat patterns especially after a searing hurtful event, we even seek to resurrect a similar pain over and over again, because it is familiar and we know no other way of bonding.

Easily dismissable eh?

 

[earth_as_one]

Earth-as-One, you have done a lot to make me see how much abuse and atrocity comes from Israel.

And you are correct that the western media here barely reports half of the stories you list.

But I'd really be curious about a psychological experiment here.

The premise is, if we can't do it, how can we expect them to do it?

Put the same energy into a thread on solutions and its mechanics on how to get there.

You answered quite directly a solution.

Informed or not informed, all of us suspect that constant blaming and fingerpointing achieves nothing but its own continued existence of hate begetting hate. In fact it becomes it's own self-fulfilling industry.

Would some have no passion if the object of their hatred is gone?

Is this barnacle like relationship of host and leech, of this symbiosis, this symbiotic relationship become its own reason for continuation.

Psychologically we repeat patterns especially after a searing hurtful event, we even seek to resurrect a similar pain over and over again, because it is familiar and we know no other way of bonding.

Easily dismissable eh?

You mean like this?
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/80748-solution-arab-israeli-conflict.html

 

[earth_as_one]

Most Americans (and Canadians) have no idea what Israel does and has done to these people. Pointing out the news which goes unreported or the historical facts which contradict accepted myths, isn't finger pointing, its informing and raising awareness.

I believe most Americans have a strong sense of justice. I doubt many would support their tax dollars being used to buy Chemical Weapons for Israel to drop on Palestinian children. But if they are unaware of this reality, then American tax dollars will keep feeding the Israeli war machine. That's part of the problem.

If Israel lost US funding and arms, I doubt they would be so eager to start wars with their neighbors. That's why raising awareness and informing is so important.

 

[Zzarchov]

That is partly true.

For instance, you use the term "Chemical Weapon" citing a report which also places the work in brackets?

Why? Because its not a chemical weapon.

Oh sure, its a weapon, and chemicals are involved, but thats like saying TNT is a chemical weapon. Hell all conventional weapons are Chemical explosive based.

The banned chemical weapons are poison gas and the like. You know this, but you don't care. You'd rather mislead people to make them take your stance than have an honest debate.


People know these things about Israel, they don't know them as you state them mind you. But the actual events? They are reported.

Do most people listen to the reports? No, but they wouldn't listen to the reports if you put up big billboards saying "Israel eats babies alive" either. If it isn't about Britney flashing her junk to the Papparazi many people don't care. To claim they aren't being informed because they choose deliberately not to care? Thats either ignorance or propaganda. And with the choice of bias you try and shove down their throat, who can blame them for ignoring it.

If you want people to listen, stop treating them like they are idiots and just be honest. Phosphorous isn't poison gas, its an incindiary, which I should point out, war involves fire and has for literally a good million years, longer than our particular brand of hominids has lived.

 

[earth_as_one]

So basically you are saying that you approve Israel's use of WP to burn civilians.

White Phosphorus when used against civilians is clearly a prohibited chemical weapon.

Israel used White Phosphorus against civilian targets:
YouTube - Cairo hospitals treat Gaza's war-scarred children -25 Jan 09

The only countries who don't recognize WP as a chemical weapon are countries with a history of using it against civilians. The Americans used it extensively against civilians in Falluja.

What the ICRC says regarding Israel's use of WP against civilians in Gaza:

Does the use of weapons containing white phosphorous, in particular incendiary weapons, in a populated area give rise to any specific humanitarian concerns?

Yes. White phosphorous weapons spread burning phosphorous, which burns at over 800 degrees centigrade (about 1,500 degrees fahrenheit), over a wide area, up to several hundred square metres. The burning will continue until the phosphorous has been completely depleted or until it no longer is exposed to oxygen. The weapon has a potential to cause particularly horrific and painful injuries or slow painful death....

Phosphorous weapons – the ICRC's view

 

[OkiefromMuskoki]

Willie Pete....my interpretation......Can not be used as a weapon.....can be used in non populated areas to obscure troop advance.

Did Israel use it? Yes....In populated areas? Yes.....as a weapon? Debatable

 

[OkiefromMuskoki]

Playing games with the definition of a "chemical weapon" is not helpful.

 

[Johnnny]

When the states and israel come knocking, run to the hills