What would YOU want to hear at church?

[gerryh]

Hi, okay, you do believe in ethics, so I presume you also believe in God...

You can presume what you want. I can guarantee that MY "God" is not the same "God" you are talking about. I also guarantee you won't like me very much by the end of this post as I do not take fools or hypocrites lightly.

Yes, there is a general revelation of right/wrong granted by God. You just have no ability to explain why something is right or wrong, because you deny the existence of the very source of ethics. You ask Christians about "evil" as if it's a difficult thing for Christians to explain, but you yourself cannot answer the question, "why should one thing even be called evil?" (Or perhaps you don't call anything "evil.")

Since you asked, I'll start the answer to your question by pointing out that there's a difference between the individual and the state.

In the scripture, we are taught that the individual must not seek revenge (Romans 12:19), but then a few verses later we are taught that the civil government has the right (the duty!) to carry out God's wrath on wrongdoers. (Romans 13:4.)

See the difference? I am not the state. The ethics of the individual are not identical to the ethics of the state, which was instituted by God for the purpose of governing and bearing the sword of vengeance.

Nice dodge hypocrite. So, there's no problem at all with "the state" killing anyone because it's not YOU actually doing the killing.:roll:

For your second question, we need to step back, because I disagree with an assumption that shows in the way you worded the question. I don't believe there is even a such thing as a "good person" outside of Christ. So... unless one is saved through faith in Christ, they will be eternally damned. Hence, the urgency of evangelism.

So, my belief that our Father in heaven's love for us is unconditional is wrong eh.

Third question is combined with the second. We are eager to spread the message of Christ. Perhaps it is possible for God to illumine the hearts and minds of people in remote places via some method other than the Bible and the preaching, but such illumination, if it were unto salvation, must necessarily involve an awareness and embrace of Jesus the Christ. They DO NOT need to know how to spell or pronounce his Greek name or his Hebrew name. But they need to know him personally as the Son of God, and as their substitute. In a manner of speaking, the believers in Old Testament times were less enlightened than we are, for they had not the privilege of knowing the mysteries of the fulfillment of the prophets. However, we Christians believe that many of them are saved, though in their lifetime they never heard the name "Jesus." They were saved through faith in this same Christ, though. They looked ahead through the prophets, we look back through the apostles, but we're all looking at the One Christ.

My opinion, you're full of shyte. My Father in heaven loves ALL OF US equally.

Capital punishment: a fair trial that sentences death upon a murderer is a just and fitting punishment. It's not merciful, but it is just. Justice is always righteous, even when we prefer mercy. The sentencing of criminals makes me cringe, and I do have a prayer that such men and women will have a second chance. One thing I know is that, though guilty and punished in this lifetime, many of these criminals will yet be eternally glorified because they embraced the Righteous One who laid down His life for the unrighteous, and so their sins were nailed to the cross with Him.

Like I said, hypocrite.

How do I define hell? It is eternal suffering under the wrath of God. It's not merely the absence of God, but it is the presence of his divine wrath. I do not know the details of how that looks or feels, but I am certain it is the most unpleasant thing beyond our understanding.

Am I ever glad that I know in my heart that you have been lead down the garden path. And yet.... just below you quote the truth and ignore it.

You're right, Christ was "of the Jews." More precisely, descended from Israel, he is the Christ for all the children of Israel -- the children of God -- all who are counted as children according to the promise, from among the Jews and Gentiles, for "Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’"

I often see in the forum some recurrence of that recessive gene of that supposed ancestor on the right hand side of the picture......;-)

It happens when idiots take, the OT especially, as truth as written. As "Gospel truth" so to speak.

 

[darkbeaver]

There was far less genetic mutation back then. (I.E., the opposite of evolution is true -- our DNA has a tendency to degrade over time, as you can see, for example, with the poodle dog breed which is full of mistakes and sicknesses.) To put this into practical terms, the offspring of Cain and his sister were not likely to be mentally handicapped, as the case would be today, and hence the laws forbidding it.


Correct -- there are two senses of the term. Jesus was, of course, ethnically an Israelite.

Ethnicity plays no part whatever in the grade of Israelite. There was only ever one sense of the word and that has been appropriated for other purposes than intended.

Certainly our father in heaven loves us equally, sonlight is like that.

 

[L Gilbert]

Really? So without religion, there is no right or wrong? Don't you think
that ethics transcends religion as a survival strategy for communal
living in a social species?

Of course it does. Otherwise atheists and some agnostics would all be "evil" and bent on destruction, inflicting misery, grabbing whatever they could grab regardless of ownership, etc.[/quote]That just doesn't describe us generally.

I believe I read somewhere that brown eyes are actually dominant to blue and though this island might have all blue eyed people, if any of them carry a brown eyed gene, it'll pop up and then it's only a matter of selection. Just a thought.

Right. And it makes sense considering that our entire species originated in southeast Africa about 250,000 years ago. And most of the planet's people have brown eyes as a result.

 

[gopher]

Abraham and Sarah were sinners needing the Gospel too.

Saul of Tarsus was a convicted mass murderer. Yet, he was forgiven. Today we call him St Paul and I live in the city named for him.

 

[MHz]

If you walked into a Christian church off the street, what question would you like to hear answered?

Why the church changes a two day course that would explain the whole Bible in as much vivid detail as the bible does has been changed in the price being endless servitude that can get you screws in the ass, literally?
The answer to the question of 'who is saved' is everybody, some at the beginning of eternity and the rest came at the 'end of the first day'. The church should give something that easy to understand out for free, if they can get members that is a blight on the flocks critical thinking skills rather than the blame all going on teacher for not being able to resist sin.
If the Priest tells you something you check it out yourself just like you do for all the other important stuff in your life, if you don't check it out you shouldn't whine when you do eventually find out it is a lie, if that never happens then you were never a very wise person in this life. Just saying, ..... into every knife drawer a little dullness must shine.creep. (take your pick)

 

[Kreskin]

I'd want to hear "nuff said, FREE BEER for EVERYONE!"

 

[MHz]

Before or after the sermon? (is nuff said the whole sermon)
Before of after the barn-raising??

 

[adopted]

I believe I read somewhere that brown eyes are actually dominant to blue and though this island might have all blue eyed people, if any of them carry a brown eyed gene, it'll pop up and then it's only a matter of selection. Just a thought.

[/FONT]

If everybody had blue eyes, then there couldn't possibly be a brown-eyed gene around, because if a person had genes for both blue and brown, then he would have brown eyes not blue. I'm saying, if everybody had blue eyes, then the brown-eye gene would be extinct.

You can presume what you want. I can guarantee that MY "God" is not the same "God" you are talking about. I also guarantee you won't like me very much by the end of this post as I do not take fools or hypocrites lightly.

gerryh, you're very angry, at least in this post. Your quarrel is not with me, but with the Bible.

 

[Cliffy]

If everybody had blue eyes, then there couldn't possibly be a brown-eyed gene around, because if a person had genes for both blue and brown, then he would have brown eyes not blue. I'm saying, if everybody had blue eyes, then the brown-eye gene would be extinct.



gerryh, you're very angry, at least in this post. Your quarrel is not with me, but with the Bible.

No, all those who have an issue with you is because you are so self righteous that you think you are above being self righteous. You think that your truth is so superior to everyone else's that you need to, nay, are obliged to, evangelize to the world about it. Well I have news for you, many have come before you and have been driven from these forums because such self righteousness garners contempt from thinking people, people of other faiths and those of no beliefs. Expect ridicule if you continue to insist on the superiority of your beliefs. They are only of value to you and a few other self righteous individuals on here.

 

[adopted]

No, all those who have an issue with you is because you are so self righteous that you think you are above being self righteous. You think that your truth is so superior to everyone else's that you need to, nay, are obliged to, evangelize to the world about it. Well I have news for you, many have come before you and have been driven from these forums because such self righteousness garners contempt from thinking people, people of other faiths and those of no beliefs. Expect ridicule if you continue to insist on the superiority of your beliefs. They are only of value to you and a few other self righteous individuals on here.

Cliffy -- if you've heard anything I've said, I've confessed my great need of salvation precisely because I am not righteous. I cling to this Jesus Christ because HE is righteous and I am not. Why do you continue to miss that, and continue to insist that I am "self-righteous?" If I were self-righteous, then the Gospel would not be "good news" to me, for I would not require it. But it is you who excludes yourself from requiring it.

Logically, there are only two possibilities. Either the Bible is correct, and I am therefore obligated to speak as I do; or, the Bible is false, and I am therefore delusional (along with Jesus the Nazarene who turned the world upside-down and the army of men and women who built the free nations we now enjoy). But you're going with the "self-righteous" argument?

It's not "my" truth. The truth I'm clinging to is the one well-documented in the most-published book in the world.

But don't expect me to consider it "news" that you've driven other Christians from these forums. This here is not "my" truth, but is pulled directly from 1 Corinthians -- a book which legions of men and women much smarter than me have devoted their lives to:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. [emphasis mine]
​

You think you're being original in your thoughts, but you're just fulfilling prophesy.

Paul

 

[Serryah]

If everybody had blue eyes, then there couldn't possibly be a brown-eyed gene around, because if a person had genes for both blue and brown, then he would have brown eyes not blue. I'm saying, if everybody had blue eyes, then the brown-eye gene would be extinct.

Then you don't know how genetics works do you.

Even if everyone has blue eyes, the gene for brown is still there. Say person A and person B have kids; both blue eyed, and their kids are blue eyed. But if person C and D have kids, and they both carry the brown eyed gene more strongly than A and B, then the chance of their having a brown eyed kid is more likely.

The problem with your theory is that you don't say how the people got to this island, how long they've been isolated and so on. In the end, the brown eyed gene can be repressed and dormant, but it won't ever go away. All it'd take is the right timing, co-ordination and "luck" for the gene to switch back on again, and give a brown eyed child.

So no, the brown-eyed gene is never extinct.

 

[Walter]

No, all those who have an issue with you is because you are so self righteous that you think you are above being self righteous. You think that your truth is so superior to everyone else's that you need to, nay, are obliged to, evangelize to the world about it. Well I have news for you, many have come before you and have been driven from these forums because such self righteousness garners contempt from thinking people, people of other faiths and those of no beliefs. Expect ridicule if you continue to insist on the superiority of your beliefs. They are only of value to you and a few other self righteous individuals on here.

Just a reminder to all those "thinking" people that as soon as you resort to ad hominem attacks you have lost the debate.

 

[JLM]

Just a reminder to all those "thinking" people that as soon as you resort to ad hominem attacks you have lost the debate.

Actually you are bang on, BUT some people are such A$$holes, that you hate debating with them because right or wrong their debating style is not pleasant.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy -- if you've heard anything I've said, I've confessed my great need of salvation precisely because I am not righteous. I cling to this Jesus Christ because HE is righteous and I am not. Why do you continue to miss that, and continue to insist that I am "self-righteous?" If I were self-righteous, then the Gospel would not be "good news" to me, for I would not require it. But it is you who excludes yourself from requiring it.

Logically, there are only two possibilities. Either the Bible is correct, and I am therefore obligated to speak as I do; or, the Bible is false, and I am therefore delusional (along with Jesus the Nazarene who turned the world upside-down and the army of men and women who built the free nations we now enjoy). But you're going with the "self-righteous" argument?

It's not "my" truth. The truth I'm clinging to is the one well-documented in the most-published book in the world.

But don't expect me to consider it "news" that you've driven other Christians from these forums. This here is not "my" truth, but is pulled directly from 1 Corinthians -- a book which legions of men and women much smarter than me have devoted their lives to:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. [emphasis mine]
​

You think you're being original in your thoughts, but you're just fulfilling prophesy.

Paul

Paul was not an apostle. He was a Johnny come lately who screwed up the whole thing. He took the message of Jesus out of the equation and turned the movement into a religion about the deification of Jesus instead of the teachings of Jesus. It was not up until 300+ years after the fact that Jesus was deified. Until then, to most Christians, Jesus was just a great teacher (rabbi). The gospels are not wrong, it is the interpretation of them that is misguided and misinterpreted.

The true story of the teachings and life of Jesus have been lost in the myth that rose up around the history. The deification of Jesus was completely fabricated from more ancient myths from Egypt, Babylon, Persia and India by the Romans. You know nothing of the history of the bible. Even the OT is a fabrication borrowed from the Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians and Babylonians.

What you don't get is, that you are not a wretch that needed saving. You are not a sinner because of something that happened (or didn't happen) hundreds of thousands of years ago. You do not need any external forces or saviours to make you whole or righteous. What you need more than anything is to love yourself. You are misplacing your love on a myth, a love that is meant for you. The fundamentalist literal interpretation of the bible is utter nonsense. It has no basis in any reality.

Anybody who has studied the bible to any degree, and has not relied on someone else to tell them what it means will tell you that. What you have done is given away your personal responsibility to find the truth to someone else because you did not trust your own inner wisdom. That is the saddest part of all. Fundamentalist Christians are spiritual cripples feeding off the insecurities of other spiritual cripples.

Jesus supposedly spent 40 days and nights in the desert wrestling with his demons, praying and meditating of the meaning of life. It is what is required of every human who seeks the truth. It cannot be handed to you, you have to earn it, fight for it, become worthy of it. The path is narrow because it is your path. No one else can make it for you. It takes courage and determination. A book is only a map, a guide, but eventually you have to put down the book and go off on the journey, a leap of faith.

 

[Cannuck]

Expect ridicule if you continue to insist on the superiority of your beliefs. They are only of value to you and a few other self righteous individuals on here.

Judging by the way you talk to Christians in generally, it's pretty clear that the ones you are talking to are not the only self righteous ones that insist on the superiority of their beliefs. Maybe you should practice what you preach.

 

[darkbeaver]

You can presume what you want. I can guarantee that MY "God" is not the same "God" you are talking about. I also guarantee you won't like me very much by the end of this post as I do not take fools or hypocrites lightly.

At least one foolish hypocrite enjoys your company every waking hour.

Since there is only one God your guarantee is worth the paper it isn't written on.

 

[JLM]

At least one foolish hypocrite enjoys your company every waking hour.

Since there is only one God your guarantee is worth the paper it isn't written on.

Where is that carved in stone, other than perhaps the Ten Commandments? I can think of dozens, like Thor, Zeus, Woden, Dollar! :lol:

 

[darkbeaver]

Where is that carved in stone, other than perhaps the Ten Commandments? I can think of dozens, like Thor, Zeus, Woden, Dollar! :lol:

Those are different pronounseaations of God.

 

[lone wolf]

I recognize the "one God" thing too. I'm just not arrogant enough to add "mine"

 

[gerryh]

At least one foolish hypocrite enjoys your company every waking hour.

Since there is only one God your guarantee is worth the paper it isn't written on.

Not surprising that you missed what I was saying by a mile. You're good at that. Yes, IMO opinion there is only one God. People know h by different names all around the globe. The vengeful God that has been portrayed here is inaccurate. God is neither vengeful or hateful.


Crawl back into your hole beav.