The witness to Jesus

[eanassir]

In reply to MHz:

Christians, don't be enthusiastic about Jesus Christ

Moses was thirty years and he was at his utmost power, then when his age was forty years his mind and experience was mature.

This is in the Quran 28: 14
وَلَمَّا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَاسْتَوَى آتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَكَذَلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ

The explanation:
(And when he [Moses] attained his [thirty years] age of full strength, and reached his [forty years] age of maturity, We offered to him authority [concerning the miracles] and knowledge;

thus [Mohammed] do We reward those [of your nation] who are kind [to the poor and needy: also We give them authority and knowledge.] )


Anyhow, God preferred some apostles over others by giving them some specific criteria; as in the Quran 2: 235
تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ

The explanation:
( These [tales of the] apostles [: messengers, We relate to you, Mohammed; of whom] did We prefer some above others [by specifying him with special criteria.]
Among them was [Moses] to whom God spoke [in the valley of Sinai],
and another one [: Idries: Elia] We raised [to certain high] degrees [of honor],
and We gave to Jesus, the son of Mary, the manifest [miraculous] signs and We aided him by [Gabriel:] the Holy Spirit. )


And about John Baptist, God described him as a pious man: as in the Quran 19

يَا يَحْيَى خُذِ الْكِتَابَ بِقُوَّةٍ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْحُكْمَ صَبِيًّا
وَحَنَانًا مِّن لَّدُنَّا وَزَكَاةً وَكَانَ تَقِيًّا
وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَيْهِ وَلَمْ يَكُن جَبَّارًا عَصِيًّا
وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا​

The explanation:
([God revealed to John when he grew:] "John, hold fast with the Scripture"; and We gave him judgment when a youth.
And compassion from Us, and purity [from sins], and he used to ward off [the disobedience.]
And kind to his parents, and he was not arrogant, rebellious.
And safety to him the day he was born, and the day he dies and the day he will be sent alive [to the Judgment.] )

And about Jesus, God - be glorified - commanded people that they should not be enthusiastic about Jesus in many ayat, like this aya 4: 171
يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً

The explanation:
(People of the Bible, do not exaggerate in your religion nor say aught concerning God save the truth.
The Messiah Jesus the son of Mary was but a messenger of God, and His word, that He cast to Mary and a spirit [coming] from His [neighborhood],
so believe in God and [all] His messengers [not only the Messieh].
Say not "Trinity"; desist [from such words] it will be better for you; for God is One God;
Far Exalted is He above having a son.
To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.
God suffices for a One Who registers their works.)

And this aya 5: 75 is also about the Christ (the Messieh)
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

The explanation:
(The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger, [many] messengers before him passed away [so why do you glorify him alone, excluding others?]
His mother was a true believer [in the Ten Commandments of her Lord];
[the Messiah and his mother] both ate food [and anyone eats food, has to relieve nature, therefore how could they be gods?]
See [Mohammed] how We make clear the revelations to them; then see how perverted they are [away from the truth!]

Say: "Do you serve, apart from God, [the Messiah] that [now] cannot hurt or profit you [because he died and his soul ascended to heaven, among angels]; while God is the All-Hearing [of any who cries to Him], the All-Knowing [of any who supplicates Him?]​

Say: "People of the Bible, do not go beyond the bounds, in your religion, other than the truth [that the Christ is the son of man, not the son of God],​

and follow not the vain desires of a people [: your monks and clergymen] who went astray before [away from the truth, seeking after wealth and position], and led astray much many [of people], and themselves erred from the plain way [of Paradise, so they reached the Fire in the afterlife.])​

Lu.7:28
For I say unto you,
Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist:
but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Since that is a quote from Jesus it cannot be reduced in meaning. That would carry down through the other Prophets as well (in that John was called to duty by God at about the age of 30) God must consider what he did in those much fewer years as being more important to the overall reading of the Christian Bible.

Once I attended the Friday prayer together with Abu Abd Allah; the orator mentioned a tradition that only Mohammed can intercede for people on the Judgment Day, so that all the other apostles like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus will be afraid from interceding for people, because God will be wrathful.

So after conclusion of the prayer, Abu Abd Allah objected to the orator, and said: This tradition is fabricated; it can't be that such prophets excepting Mohammed cannot intercede.
I was beside him and I said: "Each prophet will intercede for his nation." And Abu Abd Allah agree and said: "Yes, each prophet will intercede for his nation" The explanation: Moses will intercede for his people before the coming of Jesus. And Jesus will intercede for his nation before the coming of Mohammed.

I say this; because it is very obvious that such text, of the Gospel which you mentioned, is fabricated; and it cannot be that John Baptist was better than Noah, Abraham, Moses and Elia: Certainly these were higher in rank than John Baptist although John was pious and God-fearing.

Anybody called after John was chosen by Jesus with Him clearly be the one in command.

Not necessarily. God does choose His apostles according to His wisdom.
As in the Quran 6: 124
اللّهُ أَعْلَمُ حَيْثُ يَجْعَلُ رِسَالَتَهُ

The explanation:
( God knows best where to place His message)

And God said in the aya 22: 75
اللَّهُ يَصْطَفِي مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا وَمِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ بَصِيرٌ

The explanation:
(God chooses, out of angels and out of people, messengers; surely God is All-Hearing [and] All-Seeing.

He knows what [admonitions, they rehearsed to their peoples] – in their presence, and what [religious ways] they left behind [– in their absence], and to God will souls return [after death.])

 

[Dexter Sinister]

More BS promoted as fact by another non believer.

And you're in a position to dispute him in his area of scholarly expertise, are you? But naturally anybody who disagrees with your religious opinions must be wrong, regardless of the evidence. The dates on the Gospels have been known since Ehrman was a little boy, I've got material published in the 1960s that offers the same conclusions (he was born in 1955), and the fraudulence of some of Paul's letters was first broached in 1802. The claims I made about the New Testament are the consensus judgments of biblical scholarship around the world, not simply Ehrman's opinions. It also seems worth noting that Ehrman went from being a committed Christian to an unbeliever through careful study of biblical texts in their original languages. But no doubt you've done that too and have a better understanding of them than he does.

 

[gerryh]

And you're in a position to dispute him in his area of scholarly expertise, are you? But naturally anybody who disagrees with your religious opinions must be wrong, regardless of the evidence. The dates on the Gospels have been known since Ehrman was a little boy, I've got material published in the 1960s that offers the same conclusions (he was born in 1955), and the fraudulence of some of Paul's letters was first broached in 1802. The claims I made about the New Testament are the consensus judgments of biblical scholarship around the world, not simply Ehrman's opinions. It also seems worth noting that Ehrman went from being a committed Christian to an unbeliever through careful study of biblical texts in their original languages. But no doubt you've done that too and have a better understanding of them than he does.

Is the New Testament Forged?, Christian News, The Christian Post

"Dr. Paul Maier, a professor of ancient history at Western Michigan University and a first rate scholar of the New Testament and its history, told me, “Both [Ehrman] and his publisher [HarperOne] are guilty of cheap sensationalism with little or no regard for the truth.”

 

[MHz]

Just out of curiosity Dex how did the scholars and experts decide that these two examples were patently false statements? They would have stuck out as obvious lies. The NT says to 'run away from liars, wouldn't having a eye-witness (let alone 4 for just the Gospels), if 1 is validated as being one then the other 4 also have to be 'reexamined'. This would also open the concept that all 66 books were truthful when promoting things seen in the first-person POV.

Joh.21:24
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things,
and wrote these things:
and we know that his testimony is true.

1Jo.1:1
That which was from the beginning,
which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon,
and our hands have handled,
of the Word of life;
1Jo.1:2
(For the life was manifested,
and we have seen it,
and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life,
which was with the Father,
and was manifested unto us

The first verse above is the latest that any of the 4 Gospels cover. Another verse says they will be given help in remembering Jesus's quotes when it came time for them to write. If expedience was part of God's plan then they would have been published at the earliest convince rather than at it's latest. By the time Revelation was revealed the 7 Churches would all have had copies of all the other books that make up the current Bible. 200 years later the RCC was directed to assemble one for the Emperor, which is how we ended up with the NT (the OT was as well established work). Some 1400 years later The KJV took the text back to being a 'fresh copy' but in the English language. The actual time it took might indicate how 'difficult' it was for the NT texts.

Why is it so hard to 'imagine' that Peter had those 4 books with him the night 'strangers' came knocking.? If the book promotes things being a certain way and you insist that it is the other way then the original meaning will be changed. Should I point out that your 'sources' are men that can all be following the advice of a few that also may not have considered all the available information and have a few basic facts wrong.

If 100 people study a subject that should result in something more accurate than one reading and determining for the 99 what it means?

 

[In Between Man]

Nope, biblical scholarship is pretty clear on this. The Gospels are not eyewitness testimony, nor were they written by anyone who even met Jesus. The earliest one, Mark's, is dated at around 70 CE, the other three are dated within the next two or three decades. They were not written by Jesus' disciples, nor were the books of Peter written by Peter, and six of the Pauline letters were not written by Paul, who never met Jesus either. A substantial fraction of the New Testament is forgery. I suggest you look up the works of Dr. Bart Ehrman for popular accounts of the results of modern biblical scholarship. You'll never make your case based on provably false claims.

It's not recorded by eyewitness but it still contains their testimony.

Suppose someone wrote a book in 1980 describing your hometown as it was that year. In the book, the author correctly describes: your town's politicians, its unique laws and penal codes, the local industry, local weather patterns, local slang, the town's roads and geography, its unusual topography, local houses of worship, area hotels, town statutes and sculptures, the depth of the water in the town harbor, and numerous other unique details about your town that year.

If the author claimed he had visited your town that year - or said he had gotten good information from people who had been there - would you think he was telling the truth? Of course! because he provides details that only an eyewitness could provide. That’s the type of testimony we have throughout much of the new testament!

Then look at the span in time from the original to the first surviving copies, in addition to the number of copies produced:

The time span between the original and first of copy of Homer's Iliad is 500 years! Yet you surely don't doubt it accurately records the original words of Iliad!

In comparison the first surviving copy of the new testament from the original is only 25 years! That's remarkably early for an ancient document!

The new testament documents are early and contain even earlier source material.

At least 10 ancient non-Christian writers within 150 years of Christ's life give information about Jesus, and their collective references provide a timeline consistent with the new testament.

Why doubt the new testament? It's clearly recorded history!

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Just out of curiosity Dex how did the scholars and experts decide that these two examples were patently false statements?

You can't prove a book's veracity by citing it in support of itself. You know better than that.

... details that only an eyewitness could provide.

...details that anybody could have invented, and given the fantastic nature of some of the claims, certainly did.

 

[gopher]

Some Muslims believe the ''Comforter'' was destined to be Mohammed. But that is impossible according to the New Testament as the 'Paraclete' is defined as,

1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
1) of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon




Reading further in that Book we see that the Comforter is specifically identified as:


Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Since Mohammed was a mortal man, he could not possibly be such a spiritual being.

 

[petros]

You can't prove a book's veracity by citing it in support of itself. You know better than that.

...details that anybody could have invented, and given the fantastic nature of some of the claims, certainly did.

There is no shortage of documentation in Roman records documenting Yeshu. Like the Nazis the Romans were sticklers for documentation

How the hell do you plan on disproving the Roman accounts?.

 

[petros]

You can't prove a book's veracity by citing it in support of itself. You know better than that.

...details that anybody could have invented, and given the fantastic nature of some of the claims, certainly did.

There is no shortage of documentation in Roman records detailing Yeshu. Like the Nazis the Romans were sticklers for documentation

How the hell do you plan on disproving the Roman accounts?.

 

[eanassir]

Some Muslims believe the ''Comforter'' was destined to be Mohammed. But that is impossible according to the New Testament as the 'Paraclete' is defined as,

1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
1) of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon




Reading further in that Book we see that the Comforter is specifically identified as:


Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Since Mohammed was a mortal man, he could not possibly be such a spiritual being.

The "comforter" or the "sensuring" or the "rebuking one" or the "Paraclete" is the Mahdi, who is the apostle of the Christ. The Christ will send the Mahdi.

What they say about the second coming of the Christ: the world will not see him anymore, and will come like the lightning: as a spirit not in his material body; he will come as a spirit to instruct the Mahdi and acquaint him about the true interpretation of the Quran.

"
Therefore, the saying of the Christ: “and the world sees me no more” means: he will come with his spirit not with his body; and for this reason people cannot see him.

Truly, he came [to me: I am Mohammed-Ali Hassan] with his spirit, and made me understand many things."
صفحة جديدة 1

The Gospel as the original words of Jesus Christ is certainly true and truth; but the available now gospels are obviously not the original; and not all what they include now is dependable as a source to base one's doctrine and belief on.

Both the Torah (included in the Old Testament) and the Gospel (included in the New Testament) have been manipulated by people at different intervals and at different situations in addition to the translations and the many versions.

The truth is now included in the Glorious Quran which is known by heart by a large number of people; and it is the correction of the previous texts of the Torah and the Gospel.

preface

The Bible, The Qur'an and Science

Moreover, the Quran has been interpreted by the late interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly who explained fully all its mysterious ayat.
المتشابه من القرآن 1
http://www.quran-ayat.com/index.htm#Quran_interpretation

 

[gopher]

''The truth is now included in the Glorious Quran which is known by heart by a large number of people; and it is the correction of the previous texts of the Torah and the Gospel.''

If you wish to believe it, fine. But historical scholars (both Christian and others who do not believe in it) agree that the Comforter is a spiritual, not mortal being.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

There is no shortage of documentation in Roman records detailing Yeshu. Like the Nazis the Romans were sticklers for documentation

How the hell do you plan on disproving the Roman accounts?.

Easy. Your first sentence isn't true. Roman accounts are about Jesus' followers and their irksome--to the Romans--behaviour, they don't confirm any of the biblical stories about Jesus, or even that he existed at all.

 

[MHz]

I hate to bring this up again, but this is a period of time that is 'faith based' in that the 'gathered' are those whom (for whatever reason) believe without saying then why would you expect God to not have covered all the tracks? If it is still a question after 2,000 years then He seems to be quite good at it.

In that exploration of His existence I assume you have to use the NT to come up with a list of events? How do you prove you are using the right parameters that the Apostles laid down.

If you become a believer by 'bigger literal events' (like a Roman tax assessment for the family) why are you so resistant to the bible be a lot more literal? (Granted the events at face value are way past what all of mankind to do as resurrection from the grave is number one task for any believer)

In the parable of the door not being answered that change is too late for the 'easy route', the other route gives you a 'list' of the things God can protect you from so that by the time they actually have to make a 'choice' they are quite willing to go along with the 'preferred way'. To have the Bible tell a coherent story is also a danger to 'those not yet convinced' as the more it meshes the more it points to a single author. (meaning Genesis and Revelation are covering events that both cover) What are the odds that 66 writers in 66 different rooms would come up with a document that was 'one big event'?

 

[eanassir]

''The truth is now included in the Glorious Quran which is known by heart by a large number of people; and it is the correction of the previous texts of the Torah and the Gospel.''

If you wish to believe it, fine. But historical scholars (both Christian and others who do not believe in it) agree that the Comforter is a spiritual, not mortal being.

God knows the truth, and certainly not all "historical scholars (both Christians and others do not believe in it)" according to your words; but certainly there are men upright and just in their justice and have guidance from thier Lord knows it is the truth.

As God described those Christians who converted and believed in the Islam: the devotion to God alone, in the Quran 5: 82-85

لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ النَّاسِ عَدَاوَةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُمْ مَّوَدَّةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ الَّذِينَ قَالُوَاْ إِنَّا نَصَارَى ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَانًا وَأَنَّهُمْ لاَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ
وَإِذَا سَمِعُواْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ تَرَى أَعْيُنَهُمْ تَفِيضُ مِنَ الدَّمْعِ مِمَّا عَرَفُواْ مِنَ الْحَقِّ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا آمَنَّا فَاكْتُبْنَا مَعَ الشَّاهِدِينَ
وَمَا لَنَا لاَ نُؤْمِنُ بِاللّهِ وَمَا جَاءنَا مِنَ الْحَقِّ وَنَطْمَعُ أَن يُدْخِلَنَا رَبَّنَا مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الصَّالِحِينَ
فَأَثَابَهُمُ اللّهُ بِمَا قَالُواْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا وَذَلِكَ جَزَاء الْمُحْسِنِينَ
وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَكَذَّبُواْ بِآيَاتِنَا أُوْلَـئِكَ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ
​

The explanation:

( You [Mohammed] will surely find the most hostile of men to the believers are the Jews and the idolaters;

and you will surely find the nearest of them in love to the believers those who say: "We are Christians"; that is, because some of them are priests and monks, and they wax not proud.

And when they [: Najashi and his friends who were Christians and converted] hear [the Quran] that has been revealed to the messenger [Mohammed], you see their eyes overflow with tears because of the truth they have recognized; they say: "Our Lord, we have believed, so do Thou write us down among the witnesses [to the truth.]"

"Why should we not believe in God [alone, and abandon the doctrine of the Trinity after discovering the truth] and [believe in] the truth [: the Quran] that has come to us, and hope that our Lord will admit us [into Paradise] together with the righteous people [in the afterlife.]"

And God has rewarded them for what they have said with gardens in which rivers flow below their [trees] to abide therein forever; such is the recompense [in the afterlife] of the good-doers.

But those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations [We have revealed to Mohammed in the Quran], such are the fellows of Hell-fire.

 

[darkbeaver]

Jesus was the greatest story ever sold by the media giant of the ancient day and continues to thrill audiences well into its fifth millinium.

 

[eanassir]

And this is about Jews who converted to the Islam like Abdullah son of Salam and his friends:
In the Quran 46: 10

قُلْ أَرَأَيْتُمْ إِن كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ وَكَفَرْتُم بِهِ وَشَهِدَ شَاهِدٌ مِّن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَلَى مِثْلِهِ فَآمَنَ وَاسْتَكْبَرْتُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ​

The explanation:
(Say [to them, o Mohammed,] “Tell me your opinion: If the [Quran] be from God, and you unbelieve in it [: what will your fate be in the afterlife, before God?]


Moreover, a witness [:Abdullah, the son of Salam] out of the Children of Israel testifies to its similarity [with the monotheism included in the Law of Moses]; so [the witness] has believed,


whereas you have become arrogant [; because you are wrong-doers;] surely God guides not the wrong-doing people.”)



In addition, some genies who were Jews converted when they heard Prophet Mohammed rehearsing the ayat of the Quran; as in the aya 46: 29-32

وَإِذْ صَرَفْنَا إِلَيْكَ نَفَرًا مِّنَ الْجِنِّ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقُرْآنَ فَلَمَّا حَضَرُوهُ قَالُوا أَنصِتُوا فَلَمَّا قُضِيَ وَلَّوْا إِلَى قَوْمِهِم مُّنذِرِينَ
قَالُوا يَا قَوْمَنَا إِنَّا سَمِعْنَا كِتَابًا أُنزِلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَى مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ يَهْدِي إِلَى الْحَقِّ وَإِلَى طَرِيقٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ
يَا قَوْمَنَا أَجِيبُوا دَاعِيَ اللَّهِ وَآمِنُوا بِهِ يَغْفِرْ لَكُم مِّن ذُنُوبِكُمْ وَيُجِرْكُم مِّنْ عَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ
وَمَن لَّا يُجِبْ دَاعِيَ اللَّهِ فَلَيْسَ بِمُعْجِزٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَيْسَ لَهُ مِن دُونِهِ أَولِيَاء أُوْلَئِكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ​

It means: God directed some of genies to listen to the Quran recited by Mohammed, and when they attended his recital, they said to each other: listen to this Quran recital, then when Mohammed completed his recital, they went back to their folk, and warned them of the association and the enthusiasm, and they became the warners for their folk; they said to them: We have heard a Quran that has been revealed now after the Book of Moses the Torah), and we have believed in it and found it confirming the messenger (the apostle) Mohammed, and it guides to the truth and to a straight path leading to Paradise in the afterlife; so our folk obey Mohammed the caller to God ...
The meaning of these ayat I have not yet translated.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... why would you expect God to not have covered all the tracks?

I don't expect god to cover any tracks. I don't believe he's real, he's a fictional character like every other deity humanity has invented and has no reality beyond that.

 

[eanassir]

I don't expect god to cover any tracks. I don't believe he's real, he's a fictional character like every other deity humanity has invented and has no reality beyond that.

God the Creator is not invented; other gods are invented and have no reality: only names.

 

[MHz]

I don't expect god to cover any tracks. I don't believe he's real, he's a fictional character like every other deity humanity has invented and has no reality beyond that.

Is that an agreement on what the book says or not?
Fact or fiction doesn't even apply. Can you have a faith based religion if there are 'oodles of solid evidence' that he was real? (and the Apostles were eye witnesses.

God the Creator is not invented; other gods are invented and have no reality: only names.

Fallen angels aren't exactly slouches when it come to 'wisdom/power' departments.

How do you handle the dating of some of the ancient stone structures in South America and in Turkey. Could we even build this underground city today? 2:45 mark in particular. for some of the crew here it should be noted that 'we' did the lighting. (this time)

YouTube - Ancient Aliens: Underground Aliens pt 1/3 (Season 2: Episode 4)

 

[Dexter Sinister]

God the Creator is not invented

Odds are that he is. There's no line of evidence or argument available to support your claim that doesn't apply equally well to all other deities, or admit of more prosaic explanations, or both. That is not sufficient to justify accepting your claim as true.

Is that an agreement on what the book says or not?
Fact or fiction doesn't even apply. Can you have a faith based religion if there are 'oodles of solid evidence' that he was real? (and the Apostles were eye witnesses.

Seriously, you have to ask? Not. If you have evidence you don't need faith, the facts would be there for all to see. But they're not. What facts there are admit of simpler explanations than the extraordinary hypothesis that there's at least one supernatural being with some interest in us. The apostles certainly were eyewitnesses to whatever was going on in the last few years of Jesus' life, assuming he existed at all (and there are others about whom similar claims have been made), but they didn't write the gospels. And even if they had, eyewitness testimony is known to be the least reliable form of evidence.