The witness to Jesus

[MHz]

In reply to MHz:

Christians, don't be enthusiastic about Jesus Christ

Moses was thirty years and he was at his utmost power, then when his age was forty years his mind and experience was mature.

This is in the Quran 28: 14
وَلَمَّا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَاسْتَوَى آتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَكَذَلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ

The explanation:
(And when he [Moses] attained his [thirty years] age of full strength, and reached his [forty years] age of maturity, We offered to him authority [concerning the miracles] and knowledge;

thus [Mohammed] do We reward those [of your nation] who are kind [to the poor and needy: also We give them authority and knowledge.] )

Let's try and determine how old he was when called, he died at the age of 120, 40 years were spent in the desert, even adding in 10 years for traveling and the plagues on Egypt that still leaves him close to the age of 70. Zachariah and Elizabeth were well on in years as could have been the case for her cousin Mary, Jesus's mother as given by the heritage in Luke.
Come to think of it I'm not sure I have every intentionally compared the ages of when the OT Prophets were called into service. I would put Daniel and perhaps Jonah as being the youngest. At any rate even anybody called to service in the NT should also have been at least 30 years old. (temple service rather than fighting in war which is 10 years younger, 20)

Anyhow, God preferred some apostles over others by giving them some specific criteria; as in the Quran 2: 235
تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ

The explanation:
( These [tales of the] apostles [: messengers, We relate to you, Mohammed; of whom] did We prefer some above others [by specifying him with special criteria.]
Among them was [Moses] to whom God spoke [in the valley of Sinai],
and another one [: Idries: Elia] We raised [to certain high] degrees [of honor],
and We gave to Jesus, the son of Mary, the manifest [miraculous] signs and We aided him by [Gabriel:] the Holy Spirit. )

I would agree that there were some OT Prophets that experienced more and wrote more than others but none of those were given any information that they did not pass on to 'the readers'. That means not one of them had more pieces than they were given. Even Daniel would not have understood the prophecies in the same way the writer of Revelation would have just because of the 'increase in knowledge' that writer had.

How important was that writer that 5 books are attributed to that writer., that same writer was a disciple of John the Baptist, that is where that authority was based from, Moses was the first called for the house of Israel, John was the last to be called (by God) to the house of Israel. Moses had 5 books to write, John had a disciple of his write 5 books. Combine the 'rest' of the NT as being Jesus's Apostles and He has the most to say in the NT, that doesn't mean it should be taken lightly even when is is about who God has determined is highest amoung men, and it isn, Moses, or Abraham, ........ or anybody else.

How important is the meanings derived from just the OT in what still lies ahead. Not much, policy and sequences and lime limits are all based solely on NT prophecies, the OT prophecies that have to do with the bruise to Satan's head are just along for the ride. They were given to the people who be bring the Messiah into the world and would be the method the first bruise of Ge.3:15 was completed.

And about John Baptist, God described him as a pious man: as in the Quran 19

يَا يَحْيَى خُذِ الْكِتَابَ بِقُوَّةٍ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْحُكْمَ صَبِيًّا
وَحَنَانًا مِّن لَّدُنَّا وَزَكَاةً وَكَانَ تَقِيًّا
وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَيْهِ وَلَمْ يَكُن جَبَّارًا عَصِيًّا
وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا​

The explanation:
([God revealed to John when he grew:] "John, hold fast with the Scripture"; and We gave him judgment when a youth.
And compassion from Us, and purity [from sins], and he used to ward off [the disobedience.]
And kind to his parents, and he was not arrogant, rebellious.
And safety to him the day he was born, and the day he dies and the day he will be sent alive [to the Judgment.] )

The Temple staff hated John almost as much as they did Jesus and as the 'valid' (anointed by God) he has as big a struggle with them as any other OT Prophet sent by God, the difference is John was equal in authority to Moses. What made him greater is he was a witness to the Messiah and he never killed anybody or ever offended God (water from rock incident)

And about Jesus, God - be glorified - commanded people that they should not be enthusiastic about Jesus in many ayat, like this aya 4: 171
يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً

The explanation:
(People of the Bible, do not exaggerate in your religion nor say aught concerning God save the truth.
The Messiah Jesus the son of Mary was but a messenger of God, and His word, that He cast to Mary and a spirit [coming] from His [neighborhood],
so believe in God and [all] His messengers [not only the Messieh].
Say not "Trinity"; desist [from such words] it will be better for you; for God is One God;
Far Exalted is He above having a son.
To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.
God suffices for a One Who registers their works.)

The Bible refers to Him as the son of Mary when Joseph in no longer in the picture. He came as the last blood sacrifice, dfeath was the bruise that God chose fore 'Eve's seed,, the prophecies left untouched are when Jesus applies the same form of bruise to Satan's head. Death fot any Angel is the fiery lake. If the cross was a message from 'Mom' then Revelation covers how 'Dad' delivers the message.

And this aya 5: 75 is also about the Christ (the Messieh)
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

The explanation:
(The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger, [many] messengers before him passed away [so why do you glorify him alone, excluding others?]
His mother was a true believer [in the Ten Commandments of her Lord];
[the Messiah and his mother] both ate food [and anyone eats food, has to relieve nature, therefore how could they be gods?]
See [Mohammed] how We make clear the revelations to them; then see how perverted they are [away from the truth!]

Mary was a daughter of Aaron, there was nothing common about her.

Say: "Do you serve, apart from God, [the Messiah] that [now] cannot hurt or profit you [because he died and his soul ascended to heaven, among angels]; while God is the All-Hearing [of any who cries to Him], the All-Knowing [of any who supplicates Him?]​

​

The best way to serve God is to obey Him.

M't.17:5
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.

Proverb.8:32
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Proverb.8:33
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.

Say: "People of the Bible, do not go beyond the bounds, in your religion, other than the truth [that the Christ is the son of man, not the son of God],​

and follow not the vain desires of a people [: your monks and clergymen] who went astray before [away from the truth, seeking after wealth and position], and led astray much many [of people], and themselves erred from the plain way [of Paradise, so they reached the Fire in the afterlife.])​

I'm not including anybody not covered in this single verse. If you think it doesn't include you, well ..... I would like to read the explanation.

Re.1:7
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen.

Once I attended the Friday prayer together with Abu Abd Allah; the orator mentioned a tradition that only Mohammed can intercede for people on the Judgment Day, so that all the other apostles like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus will be afraid from interceding for people, because God will be wrathful.

Mohammed will be sitting in judgment himself, people go past Christ to get to God. You seem to be operating under OT rules that got 'updated'. The Beloved Disciple is the most important person to Jesus, even above His cornerstone Apostle, Peter.

So after conclusion of the prayer, Abu Abd Allah objected to the orator, and said: This tradition is fabricated; it can't be that such prophets excepting Mohammed cannot intercede.
I was beside him and I said: "Each prophet will intercede for his nation." And Abu Abd Allah agree and said: "Yes, each prophet will intercede for his nation" The explanation: Moses will intercede for his people before the coming of Jesus. And Jesus will intercede for his nation before the coming of Mohammed.

By intercede do you mean God sealing 144,000 before the fan starts up? From that time till it stops for the last time the salvation of the living is in their own hands, aided by the 7 Angels and the 2 witnesses. Salvation is based on individual conduct so even cheering for the wrong side will determine what side of the fence is greener.

I say this; because it is very obvious that such text, of the Gospel which you mentioned, is fabricated; and it cannot be that John Baptist was better than Noah, Abraham, Moses and Elia: Certainly these were higher in rank than John Baptist although John was pious and God-fearing.

Yet that is just what the Bible say. For the real test of 'authority' they would be to have come out of the grave at the same time Jesus did. Since that was not the whole of everybody from the OT that will be alive, it must be a select portion. Maybe as small as 24, the same number as the Saints around the Throne. 24 is close to the number of OT Prophets so would that include all the ones you mentioned (and a few more) of can it be 24 of the oldest people that ever lived, in this case the time before the flood would give you tha majority and the whole number if God included 12 men and their 12 wives as equaling 24 'redeemed from mankind'

Not necessarily. God does choose His apostles according to His wisdom.
As in the Quran 6: 124
اللّهُ أَعْلَمُ حَيْثُ يَجْعَلُ رِسَالَتَهُ

The explanation:
( God knows best where to place His message)

And God said in the aya 22: 75
اللَّهُ يَصْطَفِي مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا وَمِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ بَصِيرٌ

The explanation:
(God chooses, out of angels and out of people, messengers; surely God is All-Hearing [and] All-Seeing.

He knows what [admonitions, they rehearsed to their peoples] – in their presence, and what [religious ways] they left behind [– in their absence], and to God will souls return [after death.])

On the day of Christ's return the saved number is 1/3 of the ones alive on that day, in the 3 years prior 1/3 of those alive will be killed by Satan and Co. God lets people sort themselves out during that time, to have 1/3 left alive would mean the previous death must not have affected their numbers to any great degree. That still leaves the majority in delusion and that costs them their life (for awhile)

 

[eanassir]

Odds are that he is. There's no line of evidence or argument available to support your claim that doesn't apply equally well to all other deities, or admit of more prosaic explanations, or both. That is not sufficient to justify accepting your claim as true.

God the Creator is called with different names in different languages by each people and nation. The Creator is known to all people, although some atheists deny His existence, and they are obviously wrong. Each people or nation admits that there is the Creator. But the variation is they adopt other gods besides Him.
God is not an invention, the idols and other gods were fabricated apart from the Most Gracious. In fact God invented the creation without following any model (lit. He invented the creation.)

So the atheist denies the Creator, and the idolater associates the idols with the Creator.

The idols are almost symbols of some angels or righteous men statues like that of Jesus and his mother Mary.
Many gods and idols are called by names : names only without a real existence.

This is what Prophet Joseph son of Jacob said to his fellow prisoners, as in the Quran 12: 39-40

يَا صَاحِبَيِ السِّجْنِ أَأَرْبَابٌ مُّتَفَرِّقُونَ خَيْرٌ أَمِ اللّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ
مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِهِ إِلاَّ أَسْمَاء سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنتُمْ وَآبَآؤُكُم مَّا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَانٍ إِنِ الْحُكْمُ إِلاَّ لِلّهِ أَمَرَ أَلاَّ تَعْبُدُواْ إِلاَّ إِيَّاهُ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَـكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ​

The explanation:

("O my two fellow-prisoners, which is better: many differing gods or God: the One, the Omnipotent?"

"Apart from Him, you worship none other than names you have named, you and your fathers, concerning which God has not sent down any authority. The decision is up to God only. He has commanded that none other than He should be worshipped. That is the religion of [Jacob] the guardian [on his sons and his household], but most of people do not know [the truth.]")

Mohammed will be sitting in judgment himself, people go past Christ to get to God.

By intercede do you mean ...

All prophets including Mohammed and Jesus will be judged by God Himself, then when their judgment is completed, God orders them to judge their nations according to what they obeyed and disobeyed of their books.

The Judgment of Jesus and the other prophets- salam be to them:

Judgment of the prophets and apostles​

 

[Dexter Sinister]

God The Creator is known to all people, although some atheists deny His existence, and they are obviously wrong.

The number of people who believe something has nothing to do with whether or not it's true. All atheists disbelieve in his existence, that's what the word means, and some go further and actively deny it, but that claim is no more provable than yours. What's obvious is that you and all other believers have failed to prove your claim. You're the ones claiming he exists, I'm saying your evidence is insufficient to establish that truth of the claim so by the rules of reason and evidence it deserves to be rejected. The burden of proof is yours, making the claim repeatedly is not evidence and won't make it true. It's also false to claim, as many do, that belief without evidence is a virtue. It's a mistake.

 

[talloola]

God the Creator is called with different names in different languages by each people and nation. The Creator is known to all people, although some atheists deny His existence, and they are obviously wrong.

No one has ever proven the existence of any gods, so what is 'obvious' about being wrong, other than
'you' believe there is a god, and that is fine, believe what you wish, doesn't make it true.

 

[gopher]

Whatever the truth might be, there is no question that millions of people have been killed in the name of both Jesus and Mohammed as well as the Bible & Koran. You have to question the rationality of a god who supposedly inspired the writing of those books.

 

[MHz]

All prophets including Mohammed and Jesus will be judged by God Himself, then when their judgment is completed, God orders them to judge their nations according to what they obeyed and disobeyed of their books.

The Judgment of Jesus and the other prophets- salam be to them:

Judgment of the prophets and apostles​

Jesus was 'judged' on the day of his resurrection (as will all men be similarly judged in the very same manner) These 3 verses show the sequence that must have been completed or the last event could not have taken place for anybody.

Joh.7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit,
which they that believe on him should receive:
for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;
because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh.20:17
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.

Joh.20:22
And when he had said this,
he breathed on them,
and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

How much closer to God can anybody be? You cannot be glorified without having stood judging, for Jesus He was judged on obeying God even to the point of accepting death without struggle. No Ap[ostle has ever ascended to God to revieve glorification, that happens for them when it happens for everybody, as soon as the wicked are in the grave the righteous are being removed from the same grave.

The glorification that Jesus went to Heaven for will be available here on earth as this will be part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[eanassir]

The number of people who believe something has nothing to do with whether or not it's true. All atheists disbelieve in his existence, that's what the word means, and some go further and actively deny it, but that claim is no more provable than yours. What's obvious is that you and all other believers have failed to prove your claim. You're the ones claiming he exists, I'm saying your evidence is insufficient to establish that truth of the claim so by the rules of reason and evidence it deserves to be rejected. The burden of proof is yours, making the claim repeatedly is not evidence and won't make it true. It's also false to claim, as many do, that belief without evidence is a virtue. It's a mistake.

I said this because you claimed God is invented like all other gods. I said God (the Creator) is known by all people, but the problem with them is that they associate others with Him: the messengers or apostles came to correct this association and enthusiasm about those gods and men apart from Him.

Turning the subject upside down cannot avail you anything; because:
atheists could not answer (and deliberately ignore) the outstanding question: Who created everything in the universe? and that the universe cannot come spontaneously to existence without One Who created it.

Nature

Natural Factors

========================================================

The glorification that Jesus went to Heaven for will be available here on earth as this will be part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

MHz, if Jesus now comes and tells you:

• You should not glorify me, but glorify God That sent me.
• I am a son of man, not any son of God.
• Don't associate me with God: God is Most Great; don't say Trinity: God is only One without associate or son or equal.
• God saved me from their wickedness, and they could not crucify me, then I lived for some period of time, then I died: my body was buried, while my spirit went to the kingdom of heavens.
• I am only an apostle like many apostles that passed away before me.
• Believe in Prophet Mohammed the noble prophet who broke up all the idols of his people and worshipped God alone.
• Believe in the Quran the word of God.
• And believe in the interpretation of the Quran as said to you by the interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan whom I instruct and whom I taught him the interpretation of the Glorious Quran.

Will you believe Jesus Christ and obey him to this, or will you keep to your traditions and distorted books.


"Actually I have studied the present Torah [included in the Old Testament] and the Gospel, the Psalms and the Quran; and discovered that the first three books had been somewhat altered by the hands of men, so that they changed some of their statements and distorted the truth. Therefore, from now on we cannot rely upon them. For this reason, anyone who seeks after the truth should hold fast with the Quran which no falsehood can touch whether beforehand or afterwards, that is the revelation from a Wise and Praiseworthy (God.)

Mohammed-Ali Hassan."​

preface

 

[MHz]

Slamming the Bible to make your book more valid isn't going to sway me and your list of 'points' is a contradriction to the Bible, very specific verses, so that has even less appeal to me. You either consider the Books holy (in accuracy) or you do not. That you don't doesn't alter what will come to be

"The Quran is the word of God, that cannot be imitated by any creature. The Quran is the last heavenly scripture, conveyed by Gabriel the angel, who revealed them to Prophet Mohammed, peace be on him."


Is the man to be revered when an Holy Angel is also present, a true Prophet from God would have had the Angel as being the 'most blessed' in that situation. Originally I thought the RCC was wayward enough to have 'left their first love' with the reverence they give the Pope, perhaps those that revered Mohammad more than Jesus will also be chastised to the same degree.
.

 

[eanassir]

I don't say Mohammed or Jesus is better than each other; I say Mohammed and Jesus are brothers like all the prophets are brothers. Preferring any prophet is up to God not up to me.

To me l love both Mohammed and Jesus and don't make any descremination among the apostles of God so that I believe in some and disbelieve in others; but my love to God is more than loving even Jesus and Mohammed and Moses.

Moreover, the original Bible revealed to Moses, the prophets of the Children of Israel, the Psalms revealed to David, the original Gospel revealeed to Jesus and written by his disciples according to God's commanding them, in addition to the Glorious Quran revealed in Arabic to Prophet Mohammed -- I believe in all that being revealed by God Most Gracious.

See these glorious ayat of the Quran 26: 192-220

وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنزِيلُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ
عَلَى قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ
بِلِسَانٍ عَرَبِيٍّ مُّبِينٍ ..إلخ
​

The explanation:

(And the [Quran] is the revealing of the Lord of the worlds.
The 'Trustworthy Ghost' came down with it,

Upon your heart [O Mohammed], that you should become [one] of those who warn.
In a fluent Arabic language.
[The tales of the prophets in the Quran] is [even written] in the scriptures of the ancients.
Was it not a sign for them [of the truthfulness of Mohammed] that the doctors [of Law] of the Children of Israel have acknowledged that?
But had We revealed [the Quran] to one of the non-Arab.
And [this man] had rehearsed it to them, they would not have believed in it.
[As if the Quran was non-Arabic]; as such have We made it traverse the hearts of the guilty.
[Who] will not believe in [the Quran] until they see the painful chastisement.
And the [death] will come upon them suddenly, while they are not aware.
They will – then – say: "Shall we be respited?"
Do they [wish to] hasten on Our torment?
See [O Mohammed] that if We give them enjoyment [of life in this World] for years.
Then [the torment], that they are threatened with, will befall them.
It will not avail them, whatever [time] they [tarry] for enjoyment.
And never did We destroy any city[-population], but it had its warners.
As a reminder; and We never were wrong-doers.
The devils have not brought it down.
It is not meet for them, nor is it in their power.
Truly, they are banished from the hearing.
Therefore invoke not, [together] with God, another god, lest you [Mohammed] be one of the doomed.
And warn [about that] your tribe of near kindred.
And show kindness to the believers who follow you.
Then if they disobey you, say: "I am quit of all that you do."
And rely [in preaching your message] on [God:] the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful.
Who sees you when you carry out [your mission.]
And [sees] your discretion in [your comrades:] the submissive worshippers.
Surely, He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.)​

And hear this marvellous soora 50 of the Quran by clicking on the audio:
ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÓÏíÓ - ÇÓÊãÇÚ æÊÍãíá ÓæÑÉ Þ

 

[MHz]

I don't say Mohammed or Jesus is better than each other; I say Mohammed and Jesus are brothers like all the prophets are brothers. Preferring any prophet is up to God not up to me.

Jesus alone sits at the right hand of God. Jesus is the one giving directions, if the Apostles gave instruction it was a relay message from Jesus rather being something that came from their own thoughts. That is a one way street, only Jesus currently has gifts from God that we will eventually have, making us equal in authority to what any Apostle or Disciple is. Authority would have Jesus as the head of mankind, next would be the OT Saints that came out of the grave. Everybody else is part of two groups, some are gathered first and their relationship to the OT Saints if they are children (in therms of wisdom and power) (power being granted authority to ask the Holy Spirit to accomplish what you say. (in very limited terms compared to what God can) When the 2nd group shows up they are greeted by the ones who are now as wise as the OT Prophets were compared to the 'new arrivals' was the 1st group.

This is more about the 'correctness' of the books and if the Bible contains errors that would disqualify it from being the only book that has authority. God would have made sure it was correct in the important things. For instance the space of time between Jesus prophecising something and the number of days it took before it was manifested, one says 6 days, another says 8. Yet the quotes are more accurate, that is the control the Spirit would have helped them with when writing.

"Then, dear reader, look and contemplate: Is it logical that a prophet makes for his people a calf of gold, then he asks them to worship it, and makes a solemnity for it, then builds an altar so that they may sacrifice for it!? Aren’t these mere lies of Ezra against Aaron?"

At the time Moses was the only one 'anointed by God'. Moses killed somebody before God called him, that sin didn't disqualify him from service. Aaron never 'sinned' once Moses was gone, if Moses had caused Aaron to die for making the calf who would have lead after that?
I assume Hebrew women were modest in the amount of gold in ear-rings so the 'idol' could have been very small. Gold certainly has it's place in God's temple so the metal itself is not 'evil'.

Moses was gone long enough that the people thought he was gone forever, the only religion they knew was what they still remembered from Egypt. This 'incident' removed the members who were not able to change even after 40 years. That was the first time God did something to keep the numbers smaller. In a round about way that made the ones taken captive into the Nations in 70AD. The prophecy of that is in De.4:30 passage.

"I say: Can the drunken man lose his senses [and mind] to the extent that he cannot distinguish between his two daughters and other women? In addition, if we suppose that the drunkenness is very severe so that he cannot recognize who is lying beside him, then in such instance the drunken man should lose his power and cannot make sexual intercourse with a woman specially if he is an old man like Lot, and his two daughters are virgin.

In addition, from where could they obtain wine, while the earthquake had destroyed those four cities? Moreover, the saying of his older daughter: “and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us,”​

Were not Abraham and the shepherds of his cattle in their neighborhood? Are not these [some] of the lies of Ezra about the prophets!?"​

Apparently they did take wine with them when they left the city. Grab a drunk man by the dick and he is going to perform, we can also assume they each only did it once rather than it taking a long time. I also assume the sons found wives somewhere rather than having to start over like a new Adam and Eve.

​

"I say: Is it logical that a man can marry seven hundred women, in addition to three hundred concubines? And how can he give them equal chance of sexual contact? And how can a woman await for three years in order that she may have one night with her husband? And if that was right, then Solomon’s children would be equal to the number of his wives, if not more numerous than them."​

Perhaps only the younger pretty ones were brought to his bed when they were fertile. All 699 wives would have been servants to the 1st wife and they all would have had 'day jobs' around 'home'. With 1,000 women around that would mean another 2-3,000 people to keep the 'castle' humming day in and day out. He had lots of money.

​

"Then, see-dear reader- how Ezra did dishonestly lie, concerning the master of the prophets: Abraham, with this story that was invented by Ezra himself.​

I say: Weren’t there in Egypt any beautiful women that Pharaoh could choose as a wife for his own? Was Abraham’s wife more beautiful than all the women of Egypt; so that Pharaoh would choose her for his own? Is it logical that Abraham, and he is the master of the prophets, could speak such a thing, while he is a husband jealous about his wife?​

These stories and accusations about the prophets, were from Ezra, he wrote them in his Torah [of the Hebrew Bible] and will accordingly receive his punishment from his Lord"

Abraham was jealous for his life, needlessly it seem a when the truth was discovered Pharaoh acted more noble than King David did when faced with a similar situation.

​

"There are many mistakes in the Hebrew Bible of Ezra. One of them is the story of the angels with Abraham, when they came and gave him the glad tidings of having a son. Ezra said that Abraham gave them food and they ate some of it. While God-be exalted-told us in the Quran that they did not eat of his food; because they were spirituals, that cannot eat from the material food of the people of this World, nor can they drink from their drink, but their food and drink is ethereal and spiritual that is suitable for them."

Angels can have children with a woman, eating supper is not going to be a problem, nor is going without 'food', even when we will have glorified bodies we will still eat, it is for the taste rather than it being nourishment.

They are again not much later.
Ge.19:3
And he pressed upon them greatly;
and they turned in unto him,
and entered into his house;
and he made them a feast,
and did bake unleavened bread,
and they did eat.

​

" I say:

[1] –Can there be any tree, which if you eat of its fruit, it will let you distinguish between good and evil?"​

Apparently, there is also a tree that can remove the death part. Just don't expect to find either tree around today.

​

"[2] – And can the serpent talk, so that it spoke to Eve and deceived her, until she ate of the fruit of that tree?​

But the devil [i.e. Satan] whispered to Ezra, and said to him: If you write in your Torah that the devil deceived Adam and Eve so they ate of that tree, then they will say to you: Where is the devil, and is he existent, then why can’t we see him! ? So they will not believe you; but it is better to say: the serpent deceived Eve so she ate of the tree, and gave Adam and he ate.​

The aim of the devil (i.e. Satan) from that was to divert the curse away from himself, and to direct the curse to the serpent; for he knew that people were enemies of the serpent."​

If an Angel can appear as a man then appearing as a 'pet' would take the 'guard down'

​

"[3] – Moreover, the saying of Ezra about the serpent: “and earth shall you eat all the days of your life”, whereas the serpent does not eat earth but eats insects [and small animals];"​

For a Angel having his 'wings clipped' meant he was almost in a prison, that part is coming up.

​

"[4] – and his saying about the serpent “upon your breast shall you go” Whereas the serpent hadn’t had feet before so that its feet disappeared afterwards, but God had created it without feet (or legs) from the [first] day of its creation." ​

God also called him a cattle, a cattle with no legs, that is as low on the scale as you can go.




​

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... the universe cannot come spontaneously to existence without One Who created it.

Pretty sweeping assumption, you can't possibly know that, and quantum theory seems to suggest that it did. "Nothing" is unstable so "something" is far more likely than "nothing." Your claim doesn't solve anything anyway, it just pushes the problem back one step: where did the One Who created it come from? If you're going to claim that he was always there and is uncreated, you might as well claim that the universe was always there and uncreated, it explains just as much. You're just trying to explain one complex problem by postulating something even more complex that, not coincidentally, is untestable. You've explained nothing, and have in effect claimed that no explanation is either possible or necessary. Good religion maybe, but bad science.

 

[MHz]

it just pushes the problem back one step: where did the One Who created it come from?

Earth is supposed to be a mirror of Heaven (the 3rd heaven according to the NT). We have a man and a woman and a child. That is also the order of importance. In that 3rd heaven God is the man, the Holy Spirit is the woman and they were able to produce one off-spring, Christ. Taking the mirror the other way God would also need to have 'parents' and no siblings. His 'toy' is building and caring for a heaven and an earth.

Angels are not given in marriage in this existence that ends with the judgment of angels and then men.

After that a new Heaven and new Earth exist that is eternal. Once there is no danger to any 'baby angels' falling into sin so the 'no marriage rule' means angels never recover from the 1/3 that 'are missing'.

The old 2nd heaven (what we call the universe) could well become the New Earth as God in that place is a God that allows people to grow in numbers. The new Heaven would be another step up for Holy Angels, they would become residents of the 3rd heaven which is what out God calls home for just Him, the Holy Ghost, and Christ at present.

That's the basics, I won't bother converting the various events into a 'time' that would be accurate. Each pair of angels can have one child, then tehy create a heaven and earth as an inheritance for their child. The child must experience all that the Heaven and Earth will offer, He will marry somebody from the 'least' (earth) and the 2nd born (angels in that heaven) will be observers from that heaven, each new heaven and earth come with the same laws and therefore a judgment day in which they are given permanence and each new set comes with a 'new pair' that are 'qualified' to have a child. repeat as necessary lol

Sorry no links but the verses I used are available with a very long explanation.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...the verses I used are available with a very long explanation.

Thanks for sparing us that, at least. But I say again, if you're going to use only one badly outdated and inconsistent source book and insist that it's all literally true and correct, you will be led astray.

 

[MHz]

If the 'spokes' are the walls, shown at the 2:10 mark, are the ones in the preceding 2 minutes that is a very large and complex structure, somebody smarter than a caveman built it. Oddly enough very little would change in the Bible, a lot would change in our science books if we were smarter the further back we go, or we had help.

YouTube - Ancient-Aliens-Season-2-Episode-8-Unexplained Structures-Part 2

 

[eanassir]

Pretty sweeping assumption, you can't possibly know that, and quantum theory seems to suggest that it did. "Nothing" is unstable so "something" is far more likely than "nothing." Your claim doesn't solve anything anyway, it just pushes the problem back one step: where did the One Who created it come from? If you're going to claim that he was always there and is uncreated, you might as well claim that the universe was always there and uncreated, it explains just as much. You're just trying to explain one complex problem by postulating something even more complex that, not coincidentally, is untestable. You've explained nothing, and have in effect claimed that no explanation is either possible or necessary. Good religion maybe, but bad science.

Don't go; stop at this point.
What quantum and other theories; we speak about any work cannot be without any worker and anything cannot be with a maker. The Creator is the First and Eternal; God is behind every creation: He is the Best of creators. The changes that occur in the universe indicates it has a beginning. God is the Beginner.
==================================================

Jesus alone sits at the right hand of God. Jesus is the one giving directions ...

The danger of distorted books as a source of doctrine

Doctrines will also be distorted and corrupted; so they will tell you: we find this written in our books, so it is correct: because God said this, while in fact God did not say it; and because Jesus said it, while in fact Jesus did not say it. Then they will try to prove even every impossible and non-logical thing written in such books.

Some Books, Of The Hebrew Bible, Are Lost​

The Torah [or Hebrew Bible] of Ezra


And for this reason, God promised him with the woe and punishment.

(Therefore, woe be to those who write the scripture with their hands and say, “ This is from God”, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.
Woe to them for that their hands have written, and woe to them for that they have earned [thereby])​

This is the explanation of the aya 2: 79

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ ​

Therefore,

• when we tell them: the serpent does not talk: they say it is only a symbol of Satan.
• When we tell them it can't be the serpent had feet; they say it could have such feet.
• The prophet cannot invite people to the idol worship, they try to find some apology.
• Abraham is jealous, yes, but according to their sticking to the avilable Bible, he gave his wife to the house of Pharaoh.
• Lot according to them also did sexually contact his daughters and this prophet was drunken with wine. ...etc etc.

=====================================================

The danger of the enthusiasm in blinding the mind

God is One: this is the first of all the commandments. All the prophets and apostles invite people to this commandment, and in spite of this it is distorted by means of the enthusiasm into something like idolatry or worse than the idolatry.

The idolatry itself was originally the devotion to God alone, then it was altered by the way of the enthusiasm into such idolatry and equalizing the apostle himself with God, making the apostle or his family with equal measures of glorification and holifying. So that the heavens and earth were created for this apostle and his family members.

Example of glorifying Imam Ali (and Jesus Christ):
Few days ago, I went to visit some of my relatives, and this conversation took place:
I said: "You are enthusiastic concerning Ali (Jesus) so that you have associated him with God."
They said: No, we only worship God and don't worship Ali (Jesus.) so that we pray to God and not to Ali.
I said: "But you love Ali (Jesus) exceedingly until this love became like that of God."
They said: Did Ali devote himself to God or not?
I said: "Yes, of course."
They said: So we work according to the program of God and the program of Ali.
I said: "Now you explained the subject very well: you are not worshipping like Ali
because Ali worshipped God alone according to His program, while you worship God according to the program of God and the program of Ali -- and this is your ((shirk)) or associating Ali with God."

Therefore, if we are not aware, we shall miss such observation: because it is mixed with the religion or it takes the shape of the religion when in fact it is not the religion of God according to which Ali (and Jesus) worked.

Monotheism Is the Way of Success​

About the monotheism in the Bible

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Don't go; stop at this point.

No I won't. That is exactly the core of my criticism of your position. You're saying in effect that this is the end of the research program, we don't need to know any more than we do, we have all the answers we need or can get. Science will never accept that as legitimate answer.

 

[eanassir]

I did not say anything of that.

If you want to discuss, then give one sentence or one idea and keep to it.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I did not say anything of that.

Then what does "stop at this point," followed by a reiteration of your claim that god did it all, mean?

 

[MHz]

I did not say anything of that.

If you want to discuss, then give one sentence or one idea and keep to it.

Before this takes place I would like some feedback from you (or somebody with some authority that you trust) to reply to the debunking that determines the Torah, or the first 5 books of the Holy Bible, contain errors. Pay attention here, .... the NT states quite clearly, Jesus can appear as an Angel (as in the first night after resurrection and in the 7 visitations in Revelation) and He is a brother to any 'authorized Prophet'. Before I go on, the NT was corrupt in terms of ... nothing. The only thing solved is it shows you have a fear that your book isn't as authoritative as another version.

You say you believe in God, Fine , that is the same God as the NT promotes as to who the LORD'S Prayer is directed at. What happens after Amen is directed by GOD. Part of the authority GOD tells us to follow is the teachings of Jesus, right off the bat He claims all authority over life and death (in creation not just earth) of all the inhabitants of the earth before the separation comes.

Taking off from the end of the above sentence the separation means what, under Jesus it goes to that same verse in Re.1 that says all of mankind is set up (pre-determined) Personally you haven't even said if any of those 7 letters mean anything to you, that is a point I have asked about almost a year ago (for effect, in truth I only know I have brought it up before and and you did a short reply (which is a lot more than some)
That doesn't mean I'm not going to take you to task over this. Jesus is the authority and the NT contains all thew info we need to make it i to the 1/3 group when that 'twinkle of an eye' comes true.
This is probably one of the few times that God's spirit can freely hold up the caution flag.

Coming from the personal aspect of life,... I didn't click on your hymn link. Before we start trading spiritual spears I would like to clarify that I deem a hymn to be any musical sequence that 'naturally' brings God into the forefront of thought, even if the listener doesn't know it. The proof is as easy as researching who was the object in a 'pop tune' "Have I told you lately that I loved you?". I was listening to Dido "White Flag" for some of this post, do you see adherence to faith in the light of opposition to reality of 'faith'. We have about two days before the war woodies wear off.

 

[eanassir]

Then what does "stop at this point," followed by a reiteration of your claim that god did it all, mean?

I said that because you allways slip from the main point and go repeating Hitchin and Dawkin words
===================================================

Before this takes place I would like some feedback from you (or somebody with some authority that you trust) to reply to the debunking that determines the Torah, or the first 5 books of the Holy Bible, contain errors. Pay attention here, .... the NT states quite clearly, Jesus can appear as an Angel (as in the first night after resurrection and in the 7 visitations in Revelation) and He is a brother to any 'authorized Prophet'. Before I go on, the NT was corrupt in terms of ... nothing. The only thing solved is it shows you have a fear that your book isn't as authoritative as another version.

We should differentiate between the original Torah or the first books of the Holy Bible, and between the present Torah which is almost included in the Old Testament.

I believe in the original Torah that it was certainly revealed from God as guidance and light to the Children of Israel and to all humanity (and genie-kind); because it is the revealed word of God.

But there have been much change and alteration by the following generations (serious changes that relate to the essence of the belief); although not all of it was altered but it resulted in a confusing books that mixed the true with the false and changing the lawful into unlawful and the forbidden into allowed thing.
The Torah [or Hebrew Bible] of Ezra
Some Books, Of The Hebrew Bible, Are Lost
The Lies Of Ezra About The Prophets
The Mistakes In The Torah Of Ezra

N.B.
The present Torah (included in the Old Testament) is the Torah written by Ezra after their return from the captivity of Babylon.

The same is true about the original Gospel which was the word of Jesus and what He was instructed by God to say and work, and which was collected and written by his disciples to whom God revealed to write it down. To this original Gospel I do believe.

But in the following generations, and because of the wickedness of disbelievers and the cunning of the governors, and other factors, the present Gospels included serious changes that altered the religion of God from the exclusive devotion to God alone into something like or worse than idolatry and enthusiasm about Jesus until they considered him God and son of God and part of Trinity along with God Almighty.
The Four Gospels

Therefore, to Jesus: the prophet, apostle and righteous servant of God -- I do believe, but to Jesus as God or son of God or part of Trinity together with God -- I don't believe and I reject this absolutely.

That is because all such claims are not logical and not reasonable, but only they say we find it written as such in our Gospels

N.B. If such changes are related to some part of some rites, it may be forgiven; but the changes have been serious to change the doctrine of the exclusive devotion to God alone into devotion to Jesus himself;
while in the Old Testament the changes included many fabrications about the noble prophets of God and about God Almighty Himself (so that Jacob wrestled with him and overcame Him and took a promise by force out of Him; although some say it was an angel and even then it is wrong and he cannot wrestle with the angels and Jacob was the righteous "servant of God" as the title Israel implies.)

i.e. the changes touched the basis of the doctrine of the exclusive devotion to God alone according to The First Commandment.
And this necessitated that God should sent a new apostle: Mohammed. Because the picture of the religion of God had been changed upside down.

i.e. a man who wanted to believe, will be confused because he would find before him the idolatry and could not find the pure religion of God: the exclusive devotion to God alone without associate or equal. Then on the Judgment Day, he will have the right to say: I could not find the truth of the pure monotheism to follow it. Therefore, God sent the new apostle Mohammed to explain the truth to them.

So to Moses and Jesus I believe as do I believe in Mohammed, but to the enthusiasm about anyone of these noble prophets I don't believe.