The Official "Lets bash Christians" thread...

[coldstream]

Quote coldstream
With the the latest band of atheists, like Christopher Hitchens.. it all come down to venomous, hysterical and bigoted attacks on the Church and all its symbols. They seem to be a pretty frustrated lot.

You must be listening or you wouldn't know what they are saying.

I've not only listened to but read philosophical opinion contrary to my own. That way i can make an informed assessment of its quality. Hitchens' book 'god is Not Great' is a particularly mealy minded and confused rant, that backs up my thesis well. There simply don't seem to be very deep or profound thinkers on their side of the issue, just a lot of angry and unhappy people. :smile:

 

[coldstream]

Is that a big surprise considering that religious people outnumber atheists by a factor of hundreds? If you wanted to say something of significance about the difference in numbers of philosophers between the groups, say it on a per capita basis. I'd bet that the per capita amount of philosophers is about even.*shrugs* That's an opinion. There are lots of opinions.

Opinion, again. Most atheists I've ever read or known have been more open to possibilities than religious people simply because of the fact that they don't base everything on the assumption of gods like the religious do. Yup. Like I said, there are lots of opinions and some would agree with yours and some would disagree.

Nah, you said "illusions", I said "delusions". I am accurate. You aren't.

blah, blah, blah Anna, i still haven't figured out if you have an opinion on this issue, Anna, or are just trying to pick a fight, with whoever and whatever.. :roll:

 

[lone wolf]

Funny how they who really do know about a hereafter never come back to say ... and the Church frowns on Ouija

 

[AnnaG]

I've not only listened to but read philosophical opinion contrary to my own. That way i can make an informed assesment of its quality. Hitchens' book 'god is Not Great' is a particularly mealy minded and confused rant, that backs up my thesis well. There simply don't seem to be very deep or profound thinkers on their side of the issue, just a lot of angry and unhappy people. :smile:

You have that opinion because you aren't open-minded enough to assess them without your bias.

 

[EagleSmack]

So, can I get bombed and start an "Official Let's Bash Mohammed" thread???????

Or do I have that in the wrong order........

You may get your throat cut and be called a bigot.

 

[AnnaG]

blah, blah, blah Anna, i still haven't figured out if you have an opinion on this issue, Anna, or are just trying to pick a fight, with whoever and whatever.. :roll:

roflmao You can't refute what i said so you desperately throw out an ad hominem?
My opinion on the issue of Christians is that people are people and Christians are only a part of that group. There are good ones and bad ones, fat ones and skinny ones, etc. I'm agnostic, and as such I think that if there are gods, we wouldn't know if there were or not and that if there are gods, they are indifferent about the goings on in the universe and do not act. As such, gods are irrelevant.

 

[JLM]

"Or do I have that in the wrong order........"

As long as it's in the religious order -

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I've not only listened to but read philosophical opinion contrary to my own. That way i can make an informed assessment of its quality. Hitchens' book 'god is Not Great' is a particularly mealy minded and confused rant, that backs up my thesis well. There simply don't seem to be very deep or profound thinkers on their side of the issue, just a lot of angry and unhappy people. :smile:

Well now, that is a matter of opinion, isn't it? To me, many of the Christian 'thinkers' and philosophers appear superficial and shallow, intent on advancing that party line (Jesus line) at any cost.

 

[CDNBear]

Well now, that is a matter of opinion, isn't it? To me, many of the Christian 'thinkers' and philosophers appear superficial and shallow, intent on advancing that party line (Jesus line) at any cost.

Wow, something you and I can agree on SJP. Will wonders never cease?

That said, I wonder how many people actually now that, but are so frustrated by ignorant generalizations levied against Christians as a whole. That they oft react in a way that is not a fair representation of their own more moderate beliefs?

 

[Praxius]

Before I begin on my generalized views of Christianity, I'd like to point out a couple of things first:

• I was born and raised Roman Catholic
• Most in my family are Roman Catholic or of another Christian schism
• Not all of those who follow Christianity are from the same cookie-cutter
• Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs and points of views, even if I disagree with them.

Now, the only issue I have towards Christians, besides their short-sighted views towards homosexuality, sex before marriage, abortion, same sex marriages, etc..... is how the generalized community of Christians feel it is their right and duty to shove their views down everybody else's throats as if somehow they're un-questionably right above all others.

I have my views, I'll express my views, and I'll even defend my views when I see fit..... but I stop short of threatening or otherwise pressuring everybody else to adopt my views or face some sort of punishment.

If your views are truly the right views, then you shouldn't have to threaten anybody to accept them, they'd just accept them through common sense and what makes sense to them. The moment you have to state someone is going to hell, or they'll suffer some horrible outcome because they don't agree with you, is the first clue that your view is wrong/flawed.

When you have to threaten people to accept your views as absolute, you already lost the debate imo.

One of the things I remember growing up in the RC church, was that Jesus said something along the lines of not going out and enforcing your view on others who may not agree, instead, let them come to you.

That doesn't seem to be done now a days and it seems most who follow the faith tend to think it's their "God Given" right to dictate their beliefs and values on everybody they pass on the street and if nobody follows suit, damn them to hell and act as God's own judge on who gets into heaven and who goes to hell.

Last I checked, that was for God to do, not mere mortals.

Jehovah's Witnesses seem to take this to another level. Rather then letting those interested come to them, they go door to friggin door, pimping out their religion like a vacuum cleaner.

Basically in a nutshell, the thing I hate about religion/Christians in general, is that they force their views onto others as if it is their duty to convert everybody to their beliefs, based on words in a book that were revised countless times and written hundreds of years after Jesus apparently existed, based on stories passed down over the years by word of mouth, in which that book seems to have multiple contradictions and double standards.

Plus the fact that most of what Christians take for granted in their religion have been hawked from previous religions that are now called mythologies (Greek/Roman, Egyptian, etc.)

If people want to believe that stuff, all the power to them, but I see no justification to force or threaten others to believe in the same thing, no justification to start wars in the name of said religion, no justification in rounding up people of different cultures and beliefs and force them to adopt to these beliefs, regardless if some think its for their own good.

CDNBear mentioned he is native and is left handed... thus got a lot of crap over it.... it's not exactly the same thing, but I had bright red, curly hair, freckles and also left handed, which seemed to be all related to evilness, so to a degree, I can see the position he is coming from.

Besides the fact that there was a priest whom worked at my church growing up who later was charged for child molestation in the church he transfered to after mine, plus the countless others around the world whom have been transfered, protected, covered up by the RC Church, even to this day..... I think it's beyond hypocritical for these people to be in a position to dictate to us what is right and wrong in the world.

Even today in the news, the RC Church is trying to blame homosexuality for the millions around the world who have been molested by priests during their youth:

Homosexuality to blame for sex abuse: Vatican cardinal
Homosexuality to blame for sex abuse: Vatican cardinal - CTV News

^ First off, how does homosexuality explain pedophilia, and secondly, how does homosexuality explain the abused girls? (It wasn't just boys who were abused)

Thirdly, they claim it has nothing to do with celibacy.... yet since their homosexuality claim is baseless and pretty stupid since it doesn't cover the abused females over the years around the world.... my view is that priests target children because they're flat out gullible and easy to manipulate through their faith. It's easy to scare the crap out of a kid by threatening that they'll go to hell if they tell anybody about their little secret.... or tell them that it's their fault.... or tell them it'll embarrass their parents, or even make their family get kicked out of the church and community if they tell.

^ Try doing that to an adult and see what results you get...... you'd get stabbed in your holy eyeball and kicked down a flight of stairs.

Retracting a bit, as I said, I have no issue in what people wish to believe, but don't force others to believe in what you believe.... let them come to you on their own.

With all of the above and them some, nobody has the right to force their views as being absolutely right above all others regardless..... and when it comes to Christianity, they have even less right then most based on their own actions over the centuries.

I'll admit, there might be some hypocrisy in what I say above, just by me expressing my views and how I did, but at least I accept it and at least I'm not telling everybody here to believe what I believe or face eternal damnation and suffering if they don't.

I was asked, therefore I answered.

Once again, believe what you wish to believe, but don't shove your crap down my throat with threats and constant harassment.

And to backtrack once more:
• Not all of those who follow Christianity are from the same cookie-cutter

 

[theconqueror]

But the path of Jesus is like the shining sun,
That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
Proverbs 4:18

I just wanted one more nab at it for good times sake... :lol:

 

[lone wolf]

YouTube - Orange Moose! 1960s cereal commercial

In keeping up with a cereal theme....

 

[CDNBear]

Yummm, orange moose. High in betacaritine!!!

 

[eh1eh]

YouTube - Orange Moose! 1960s cereal commercial

In keeping up with a cereal theme....

Orange Moose! That's a friggin illuminate indoctrination video if I've ever seen one.

Well I haven't but come on, Orange Moose. Geez.

 

[eh1eh]

Yummm, orange moose. High in betacaritine!!!

And new world order.

 

[coldstream]

That doesn't seem to be done now a days and it seems most who follow the faith tend to think it's their "God Given" right to dictate their beliefs and values on everybody they pass on the street and if nobody follows suit, damn them to hell and act as God's own judge on who gets into heaven and who goes to hell.
That doesn't seem to be done now a days and it seems most who follow the faith tend to think it's their "God Given" right to dictate their beliefs and values on everybody they pass on the street and if nobody follows suit, damn them to hell and act as God's own judge on who gets into heaven and who goes to hell.

Pot, kettle, black.. the most vociferous and puritanical views on the planet are now expounded by an agnostic paradigm.. that of political correctness.. that deems itself with simple minded and reductive logic of 'inclusiveness' and 'diversity' to have determined, in contravention of the events and lessons of all human history, all of its faiths.. to have determined a relativistic, materialistic and radically individualistic moral code that has evolved at the 'end of history'.

The primary postulate here is that there is NO overarching moral archetype, simply subjective ethical stereotypes, on which no moral judgements can be assessed. It is all simply a matter of your point of view. Carry this through to its logical end and you will see that ultimately morality will be imposed by power and privilege, those in possession of the tools of public opinion in the media and educational establishments. It is a recipe for tyranny, and is what all our 'tolerance' is stirring up.

They think its the end of the argument, when everywhere it implemented societies collapse into confusion, pessimism and self gratification. It has produced nothing but family breakdown and misery. It champions sexual profligacy and ESPECIALLY homosexuality, the great scourge of the soul and to the well being of both the society and the individual where it becomes a legitimate and celebrated state. Look at history, this is not new, wherever homosexuality achieves this level of acceptance, the society itself in unravelling into chaos.

First off, how does homosexuality explain pedophilia, and secondly, how does homosexuality explain the abused girls? (It wasn't just boys who were abused)

The Roman Catholic experience is that well in excess of 80% of the cases of child abuse have been of homosexual character. They been done by 4 - 6% of Catholic priests, who have at some time been involved with pederasty.

The word pederasty is important since it defines an interest in adolescent boys, usually between 12 and 18, at the particularly vulnerable time of puberty and very young adulthood. Therefor these abuses have been accurately described as homosexual, and their protagonists as homosexuals, which the Church has always deemed as inconsistent and antithetical to a religious vocation.

From the figures above you should come to the conclusion that a large majority of Catholic priests are in fact truly celibate and that the primary cause of the abuse scandal is not celibacy.. it is homosexuality. It is 'priests' who have lied to put themselves in a position of enablement to sexual predation, and would have found other avenues, teaching, boy scouts, whatever, had this been unavailable to them. But it had nothing to do with celibacy, and renunciation of worldly gratifications in the interests of holiness, and is an aspect of most major religions.

 

[Cliffy]

Coldstream,

Are you a lawyer? Your justifications and obfuscations are there solely to cloud the issues. You can spout all the intellectual mumbo jumbo you want, but the hue and cry about this issue is not so much why priests abuse children, but that the church has tried to cover it up, and particular that the Pope covered it up, and continues to do so.

When the church claims to represent god and sets itself up as a moral compass, covering up crime and hiding the criminals from the law, is beyond ignorant and is a crime in and of itself. It is the church's hypocrisy that is causing the outcry and a demand for justice. It is not the atheists or agnostics that are leading the charge, but ordinary people within and with out the church.

A society breaks down when its spiritual leadership lose credibility.

 

[coldstream]

Cliffy, the Pope has never tried to cover anything up. He was instrumental in developing and implementing the one strike rule, by where one substantiated charge of child abuse will lead to the defrocking of any priest, all allegations are reported to local police for investigation and civil prosecution, any cover ups by supervisors or bishops will lead to dismissal from their posts.

The feeding frenzy we see now in search of culpability of an honourable man like Pope Benedict is a sign of just how hysterical and divorced from reason our society has become.

If i were a lawyer of a guilty client, cliffy, i would certainly want you on the jury.. since you obviously let whatever faddish modern moral paradigms exist, dictate your opinions.. hence it would be easy to use sophistry and demagoguery to turn Truth into fiction in your eyes.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, the Pope has never tried to cover anything up. He was instrumental in developing and implementing the one strike rule, by where one substantiated charge of child abuse will lead to the defrocking of any priest, all allegations are reported to local police for investigation and civil prosecution, any cover ups by supervisors or bishops will lead to dismissal from their posts.

The feeding frenzy we see now in search of culpability of an honourable man like Pope Benedict is a sign of just how hysterical and divorced from reason our society has become.

If i were a lawyer of a guilty client, cliffy, i would certainly want you on the jury.. since you obviously let whatever faddish modern moral paradigms exist, dictate your opinions.. hence it would be easy to use sophistry and demagoguery to turn Truth into fiction in your eyes.

Time will tell who is delusional. But it seems to me that that bucket of white wash you are carrying around is getting a little heavy for you to handle.

 

[Praxius]

Pot, kettle, black..

Not exactly, as even in my above post, I at least admitted there may be some hypocrisy in what I say..... but at least I admit it.

the most vociferous and puritanical views on the planet are now expounded by an agnostic paradigm.. that of political correctness.. that deems itself with simple minded and reductive logic of 'inclusiveness' and 'diversity' to have determined, in contravention of the events and lessons of all human history, all of its faiths.. to have determined a relativistic, materialistic and radically individualistic moral code that has evolved at the 'end of history'.

Not sure what you're talking about here, but the only time I attempt to enforce my views in anyways, is when my views are supported by law and existing rights.... they are set.... and if one wishes to counter them or refute them, then challenge the law/right.

There's a difference between religious beliefs and legal rights and laws. (In our "Western" countries that is)

The primary postulate here is that there is NO overarching moral archetype, simply subjective ethical stereotypes, on which no moral judgements can be assessed. It is all simply a matter of your point of view. Carry this through to its logical end and you will see that ultimately morality will be imposed by power and privilege, those in possession of the tools of public opinion in the media and educational establishments. It is a recipe for tyranny, and is what all our 'tolerance' is stirring up.

Ok, I'm not sure where you're leading this, but you seem to be talking about something completely different then the topic at hand.

I don't agree with people imposing their views and morality through power and privilege, yet that's what the Christian faith has done for Centuries, where for the longest time, they could get away with just about anything based on their faith alone. Witch Hunts, Crusades, Imposing the faith on tribes in Africa, South America & elsewhere around the world, taking North American Native's & Aboriginals from Australia's children away from their families and putting them in private schools, beatings, molestations, many other forms of abuse... etc. etc..... all because for the longest time, they had the support of the State.... or they were the State.

I believe in free people of all different backgrounds and beliefs to democratically decide what should happen in their communities based on existing laws and rights.... I believe in people choosing their own paths in life without fear of attack or influence from others in any fashion.

That means I think you should be able to believe, practice and do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't impose on someone else's life and personal beliefs.

How this relates to the Christian Faith as Pot and Kettle, I'm still not sure.

They think its the end of the argument, when everywhere it implemented societies collapse into confusion, pessimism and self gratification. It has produced nothing but family breakdown and misery.

That's a tad subjective and vague, and I'd personally take those issues over being burned at the stake or molested by a priest any day..... at least then I'd only have myself to blame.... but then again, I'm still not sure what you're talking about.

It champions sexual profligacy and ESPECIALLY homosexuality, the great scourge of the soul and to the well being of both the society and the individual where it becomes a legitimate and celebrated state. Look at history, this is not new, wherever homosexuality achieves this level of acceptance, the society itself in unravelling into chaos.

Really? If that were true, you'd think the leaders of the church would be the last affected by the above.... yet it would seem the majority of molesters and child abusers seem to be coming from the Church itself.

So are you suggesting that because you think society has drifted away from the church, that it's society's fault that priests have somehow "Turned Gay" and abuse children, as "Look what you made us do!" :-?

That makes a load of sense.

Logically, if the Church was the real protection from Homosexuality, Pedophilia and child abuse... priests wouldn't be doing the things they're doing, rather, they'd be the last to do these things.

Therefore, either it's the church's fault that all their priests are going nuts..... or it's the church's fault for not filtering out all these evil doers before they get these positions in the church in the first place.

The Roman Catholic experience is that well in excess of 80% of the cases of child abuse have been of homosexual character. They been done by 4 - 6% of Catholic priests, who have at some time been involved with pederasty.

I'd like to see some sources for those claims..... based on the level of abuse here in Canada alone, that % you stated sure seems questionable. Then again, with all the cover ups and transfers of priests to keep it all under wraps, it wouldn't surprise me.

The word pederasty is important since it defines an interest in adolescent boys, usually between 12 and 18, at the particularly vulnerable time of puberty and very young adulthood. Therefor these abuses have been accurately described as homosexual, and their protagonists as homosexuals, which the Church has always deemed as inconsistent and antithetical to a religious vocation.

Nice attempt to split hairs, however any sexual abuse of a Minor, which the above still fall under, is still considered Pedophilia. And even if your above 80% of abuse were mostly males is indeed true, it's still not absolute, and there still were/are female victims.... and since the RC Church refuses to accept female priests, those female victims were abused by males.... so tell me where the Homosexuality fits in that little equation.

It doesn't, unless those priests don't know anything about the human anatomy or those girls were a bit on the manly side of looks.

Regardless... sexual abuse of a minor is still pedophilia.

From the figures above you should come to the conclusion that a large majority of Catholic priests are in fact truly celibate and that the primary cause of the abuse scandal is not celibacy..

Based on your word alone with no source to back them up.... me thinks not.

it is homosexuality. It is 'priests' who have lied to put themselves in a position of enablement to sexual predation, and would have found other avenues, teaching, boy scouts, whatever, had this been unavailable to them. But it had nothing to do with celibacy, and renunciation of worldly gratifications in the interests of holiness, and is an aspect of most major religions.

Most major religions, including most Christian Schisms, allow their spiritual leaders to marry.

And your above claims and assumptions are just that... assumptions. You sure seem to be an expert on every case in question, what each priest believed, their intentions, etc.... yet still ignore the factor in your sourceless claim of 80% of the cases.... and that factor being the other 20% being females.

Maybe those 20% of females abused sexually were abused by gay priests who were blind and mistaken their high pitched voices as being younger boys? :roll:

The fact of the matter is that Being Gay doesn't make you strive to have sexual relations with children.... you are attracted to the same sex, that's all it is.... just as straight people are attracted to the opposite sex..... the moment anybody in any group goes for a minor, they're a Pedophile.

And considering the majority of sexual abuse cases of minors in relation to religion seem to come mostly from Christian religions, in particular, Roman Catholic, it would seem to point to the main issues of what differences could be causing such an unbalance.

Common sense would tell you exactly what would most likely be the cause.

How come there's no giant scandal like this with Judaism? Hindus even??

Anyways, my point in posting the link I did was not to drag that debate into here.... if you wish to discuss further the child abuse in relation to the Christian Church, by all means, start another thread.... that was not the entirety of the point I was trying to make.

In the end, you can believe what you wish to believe.... just as I will.

Just be grateful I didn't say they were all going to hell (Since I don't know) :lol: