In general, conservatives are so focused on themselves to care what other people need or want. It is all about me, me, me and to hell with the poor and infirm. We are a species first and individuals second. We cannot survive in isolation. If one goes down we all go down. That is a concept that seems to escape the ego centric.
The Coalition.......Lib, NDP, and yes, the Bloc
- Thread starter Colpy
- Start date
The entire post above is BS.lol.... yeah right.... so if someone voted other then Conservative they don't give a damn about Canada?
Besides.... who cares anymore? That was a couple of years ago and isn't an issue anymore.
But I do like the fact that Con supporters who hang all over the Coalition thing continually forget that Harper and the Cons pulled the exact same stunt with the Bloc back when he was opposition.
Oh but that's different. *snickers*
Regardless if the Bloc was an actual partner or not is truly irrelevant. I suppose Con supporters still believe that the Coalition would have given the Bloc the power to do as they wish and control the government..... that was BS back then just as it's BS now.
If the Bloc attempted to pull any sort of stunt that screwed the rest of the country over, then the entire coalition and plan would be over with and there'd be another election, it's as simple as that.
Or heaven forbid the Con's biggest nightmare boogy-man story of the Coalition allowing the Bloc to suddenly become it's own country and pull out of Canada........ wouldn't happen either because the Coalition never gave the Bloc the ability to do so in anyway..... because once again.... once they pulled something, the Coalition would dissolve and we'd go to an election.
The Coalition was, besides perfectly legal in our system of government, designed originally to form up a semi-stable government that would actually get something done for once, rather then the same old Conservative tactics of never getting anything done and simply using their position to pit everybody against everybody..... political parties, provinces and fellow citizens alike.
Harper not only lied to the Canadian public by claiming the Coalition was some illegal power grab from the back door, but he was the one who tossed out the whole evil Quebec separatist thing in the first place (which was completely unwarranted) and pretty well pitted everybody against one another through lies and manipulation in order to maintain his power hungry position.
^ And you claim the Conservatives are the only Alternative if one gives a damn about Canada?
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR!!!!!!!!
First of all, there was no formal coalition proposal in 2004.....had there been, the gov't of Paul Martin would have fallen. Such garbage!
What Harper did do was write a letter to the GG, quoted below:
At the time, the Liberals had 135 seats, the Conservative Party had 99 seats, the Bloc Quebecois had 54 seats and the NDP had 19 seats, and a successful non-confidence vote would have required the support of the Bloc.......but that is ALL the truth there is to the empty accusation of hypocrisy. There was NO announcement of a coalition.
No agreement between parties, just "consultation", in other words, no back-door deal with the Bloc for 18 months support. In fact, absolutely no serious move towards a marriage of convenience with the separatist devils at all, as proven by the fact there was no non-confidence vote, in reality or even threatened.
So much for THAT particular line of BS.
You miss the entire point of keeping the Bloc out of power.
Quebecers vote for federal influence to serve Quebecers better, whether or not it is at the expense (financially or politically) of the nation as a whole.
Give the Bloc a lever on gov't power, and the separatist movement in Quebec soars.
Make them irrelevant, and the separatist movement sinks.
To make them part of the gov't, no matter how quickly you can dump them, is an act of sedition, IMHO!!!!! And Harper did NO SUCH THING in 2004.
As well, Harper never claimed, as far as I know, that the coalition proposal was illegal.......he said it was illegitimate. Big difference......and he was correct.
And no, it wasn't something that was over two years ago. The next election will be cast as the CPC vs the Coalition by the Conservatives, while the Libs feign outrage and deny everything, the Dippers adopt an "aw shucks" attitude, and the Separatists try to stiffle their laughter.
Hopefully, Harper kicks all their arses.
It sounds like you do not understand Quebec or its population, or the reasons for a separatist movement in the first place. A Harper win with a majority would probably inflame the separatists and bring about a total dissolution of Canada.
Coalition is implicit in what he said. Words like "We" "together" "constitute" "majority" "close consultation"...It is bald hypocrisy. If I work with Ted, and then later on you work with Ted and I impugn you for working with Ted to make myself look better, that makes me a hypocrite.
Which is precisely what Harper did.
Who cares if it didn't come to pass. It's implicit in what he is saying that he was willing to work with the Bloc...
You know, I remember this type of rhetoric being used by the Liberals when Martin was PM, namely to justify Belinda Stronach's crossing the floor and taking up a cabinet post. This type of thing isn't something one party has a monopoly on.
Yes, it is legal but it is also intellectually dishonest to try and subvert the will of the people immediately following an election. The voting populace of Canada spoke and elected a minority Conservative gov't. The opposition parties threatened to over-rule the electorate by stating they would not pass the throne speech, thereby sending the country immediately back to the polls. The "coalition" that you refer to as "semi-stable" was nothing of the sort as evidenced by the way it rapidly fell apart when things didn't play out as Iggy, Jack and Gilles wanted. I also love the way you categorize the "divide and attempt to conquer" as an "old Conservative" technique, when Chretien used it gain a couple majorities and govern the country for 10 years...
It wasn't a lie as much as an exageration, as pretty much everyone in Ottawa, on all sides, is prone to do these days. Show me an honest man and Ottawa and I'll bet he's on his way out of town. Its amusing to me that so many term Harper as the evil manipulator for stealing plays out of the Liberal playbook...guess he studied old Jean a lot closer than anyone thought.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't like Harper. I didn't like the way he recruited Anderson, appointed Fortier and many other moves he made since he first took office. But I think he is the best of the lot, and it doesn't matter if you swap Dion and Iggy back and forth. Unfortunately, I also have to agree with others who have said the leader that is doing the best job for his party is the man most of us don't want to succeed: Gilles Duceppe.
A coalition would be the will of the people...those MP's are elected representatives of the people. Simple math here, which government has the greater representation of the will of the people? A government with 36% of the vote, or a government with 59% of the vote?
There is NO way the Bloc should be any part of a gov't. that is ruling the rest of Canada. That is frick'n B.S. If the Libs and the N.D.P. can't scare up enough votes on their own to beat Harper, they should just go home with their tails between their legs.
What I would love to see is the Canadian public get so fed up with the Cons and Glibs to split the vote so bad between them and the NDP, that the Bloc picks up the most seats of all the parties. Man! That would be some show. There would be such hysteria on here that it would be worth tons of belly laughs every day for months. I would probably have to start wearing Depends!
:lol: :lol: ;-)
There have been such alliances before but all were more informal.
A coalition is not the answer under the present house as the old
stigma would still be present. However if a coalition came about
after a new election, that I think would be different. People don't
want Iggy, but they like Harper less and less.
As long as the Bloc stays strong, there will be no majority for
anyone. With the present climate nationally I don't think much
will change with an election either. Doesn't matter who started the
coalition, if there is another minority for the Tories a number of things
will likely happen. Harper will be gone, if he can't move the yardsticks.
He can't. Iggy will be gone if he loses the next election, there are many
who want to dump him now. He is on a bus to nowhere.
Jack Layton, who reminds me of the logo for the Jack in Box is another
voice of the present past. Done like dinner, even the Bloc is looking for
some reason to exist.
I find myself in a serious void. I can't support the conservatives, the
Liberals look like they are on an Easter Egg hunt and the Bloc, they
have an agenda, but its divisive. The NDP has an identity crisis but they
have some policies, not all but some I can identify with.
What a promising future this country has with the present crop of leaders.
The old coalition is past history, the new coalition will feature a whole
crop of new leaders and that coalition may well prove to be more palatable
to voters.
A coalition is not the answer under the present house as the old
stigma would still be present. However if a coalition came about
after a new election, that I think would be different. People don't
want Iggy, but they like Harper less and less.
As long as the Bloc stays strong, there will be no majority for
anyone. With the present climate nationally I don't think much
will change with an election either. Doesn't matter who started the
coalition, if there is another minority for the Tories a number of things
will likely happen. Harper will be gone, if he can't move the yardsticks.
He can't. Iggy will be gone if he loses the next election, there are many
who want to dump him now. He is on a bus to nowhere.
Jack Layton, who reminds me of the logo for the Jack in Box is another
voice of the present past. Done like dinner, even the Bloc is looking for
some reason to exist.
I find myself in a serious void. I can't support the conservatives, the
Liberals look like they are on an Easter Egg hunt and the Bloc, they
have an agenda, but its divisive. The NDP has an identity crisis but they
have some policies, not all but some I can identify with.
What a promising future this country has with the present crop of leaders.
The old coalition is past history, the new coalition will feature a whole
crop of new leaders and that coalition may well prove to be more palatable
to voters.
Yes! Trudeau for Liberal leader. Out with the old, in with the new. Couldn't do worse that the present crop of clowns.
Colpy my friend - I like them all on a leash - In fact it should be electrified for all Ministers and members of the Shadow Cabinets - That way we - the people - exercising our basic rights of democracy could when it occurs that they step on their respective dicks - or vagina - how a woman can do that is something to be considered - could go to a website - vote - and thumbs up - No shock - thumbs down - an electrical shock - and similar to a dog collar on the market, the more often they makes these dumb ass remarks the voltage increases.
Now as to a Harper majority - setting aside the other leaders I prefer him with a minority - why - because unchecked I do not trust him. And why you would surprises me - He has stepped on his dick over BS - why - A control freak -
What I would love to see is the Canadian public get so fed up with the Cons and Glibs to split the vote so bad between them and the NDP, that the Bloc picks up the most seats of all the parties. Man! That would be some show. There would be such hysteria on here that it would be worth tons of belly laughs every day for months. I would probably have to start wearing Depends!
Don't be a sh*t disturber Cliff. :lol::lol:
You and me both. Why anyone is a "slave" to some thieving lying assh*le beats me. :lol::lol:
Compared to what?
Your original post I was responding to? :lol:
Of course there was no "Formal" coalition proposed..... after all, Harper likes to do things out of sight from the public...... And just because there was no "Formal" coalition made at that time, that doesn't mean Harper didn't try.
And what's really funny is that you claim that if Harper formed a Coalition, the Paul Martin Government would have fallen......
So please tell me the difference here where it's ok for Harper and the Cons to deal with the Bloc and form a coalition you believe would have won..... but somehow it's all completely wrong and immoral for the Liberals or NDP to do the same thing.
Regardless of how you attempt to spin it, support from the Bloc to take down Martin's government or support from the Bloc to take down Harper's government, regardless of how long that support lasts...... IS STILL SUPPORT AND IS STILL DEALING WITH THE "DEVIL" as you called them.
Any form of co-operation between parties in a minority government to obtain any type of objective is still a coalition, regardless if a party uses the word or not...... regardless if it's the leading party or opposition doing the dealing.
Talk about trying to split hairs.
Really? Here's some more information for you to process:
Gilles Duceppe and the coalition
Gilles Duceppe and the coalition - John Geddes - Macleans.ca
Seems you forgot to mention that letter to the GG you used as a means of defence was signed by not just Harper, but Layton and Duceppe..... speaking of very much the exact same thing you're complaining the Libs & NDP were doing with the Bloc. Regardless if they came out and publicly stated this was a Coalition.... it was a Coalition none the less...... you're basing your distancing of the Cons and their previous actions on minor technicalities of what was openly said.
I didn't miss it.... I read what you said.... and regardless of how you attempt to spin it, there was no means in this coalition that gave the Bloc any means of power that would compromise the security and stability of the nation and even by the remote chance they would attempt to pull some sort of stunt.... Once again..... it wouldn't happen because then the NDP and Liberals would have dissolved the Coalition before anything happened and we'd go to an election.
Talk about fear mongering.
That's what bloc parties do..... that still doesn't mean that because they have Quebec's interests as a priority, that they still won't help or vote in favor for things that still benefit the rest of the nation, including Quebec.
In fact, there have been countless times in the past where the Bloc voted in favor for not just the Cons, but the Libs and even NDP proposals, which either had nothing to do with Quebec directly, or had no negative affect on Quebec or its people.
You act as though it's all black and white with the Bloc, as if every single thing they do is all towards attempting to screw the rest of the nation over and pull out...... yet even the Bloc understands quite well that the separatist crap is not popular with the majority of people in Quebec and hasn't been popular since the 90's...... that doesn't mean they still won't serve Quebec interests, just like a hypothetical Bloc part for the west or for the Maritimes would serve their respected interests.
The only person who's been bringing up the separatist crap in the last couple of years has been Harper and the Cons..... no one else.
Baseless crap. Up until Harper's lies and dividing of the people in this nation began, the separatist approval in Quebec was below 40%..... so long as it remains below 50%+ or so, the Bloc wouldn't propose any plans of separating from Canada simply because it would lose them more votes then they'd gain...... and it also explains why the Bloc has toned down their separatist rhetoric over the last number of years, until recently.
But look at this:
Harper's Quebec-bashing will push some voters to PQ: analysts
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/548675
There wasn't a separatist issue until Harper created on in order to save his sorry ass as PM when the Coalition was proposed...... you splitting hairs between Harper getting the Bloc to support him to take down Martin and the NDP/Libs getting the Bloc to support them for a period of time in order to get some work done in our government..... is just a tad silly.
And on top of all that, now that the GG allowed Harper to Prorogue to save his sorry ass in a non-confidence vote.... he and the GG now opened the door for any future PM's to Prorogue to save their asses and avoid being voted out.
lol.... as proven above, the Separatist movement was already sunk and had no position to gain any ground..... Until Harper tossed out the Rhetoric and fear mongering of the separatist movement and brought it back out from the back burner by villainizing everybody in Quebec as out to doom the rest of us.
Regardless of what you think or say, they ARE a part of the government.
1st off.... it was legitimate based on our system of government...... so he lied there.
2ndly:
Coalition a threat, PM says - The Globe and Mail
If they don't have the democratic right to impose a Coalition, then obviously it's illegal isn't it? And what promise is Harper actually speaking about in regards to not dealing with the Bloc?
They don't need our say, consent or our vote on forming a Coalition because that's not how our Democracy works.... and if Harper had any clue, he'd know this..... so either A) He's completely ignorant on how things work in our government or B) He's lying and attempting to pit everybody against one another in order to hold on to power.
In either case, Harper is in the wrong and he publicly lied to us all and created the mess to begin with.
Don't forget his little budget which created all this in the first place.... which was a blatant partisan attack to poke a stick at the rest of the parties like he promised he wouldn't do if voted into power again (he claimed he'd work more with the other parties and try and get some work done, don't forget.)
Oh and the election itself was another blatant partisan attempt to get more seats for his party, because the polls claimed he'd get a majority and he believed he'd get a majority.
So don't sit there and tell me that Harper and the Conservatives are the only choice for anybody who gives a damn about this country, because you clearly don't know wtf you're talking about.
None of that makes any sense and besides that, is just speculation on your part.
lol..... Harper isn't any better off then he was during the last elections. Regardless of what happened during the Coalition fiasco, a lot more has occurred since then that exposed more of Harper's and the Conservative's failures and continued corruption and childishness.
They won't get a majority...... no party will.
Coming back down to reality a bit, when another election is called, we'll still be left with a minority and nothing will really change.
Maybe the Cons will remain in power...... maybe the Libs might steal it away from them..... either way, it'll still be the same old same old.
Bingo..... at least someone was paying attention ;-)
That was under Dion, he's long gone now and the coalition is history.
The conservatives have had more than enough time to give Canadians what they really want from their federal government, a return of much of the power that has been taken from them over the decades. Harper and his government are more concerned with closing our political process down to control it for their own narrow interests to the detriment of the pubilc interest.
Not only do the conservatives not deserve a majority, they don't even deserve a minority government in Parliament. They consistently show disrespect to a majority of Canadians by disrespecting their elected representatives individually and the House in general, the regular prorogations of Parliament being the most obvious evidence of this...
The conservatives have had more than enough time to give Canadians what they really want from their federal government, a return of much of the power that has been taken from them over the decades. Harper and his government are more concerned with closing our political process down to control it for their own narrow interests to the detriment of the pubilc interest.
Not only do the conservatives not deserve a majority, they don't even deserve a minority government in Parliament. They consistently show disrespect to a majority of Canadians by disrespecting their elected representatives individually and the House in general, the regular prorogations of Parliament being the most obvious evidence of this...
Cobalt_Kid Not only do the conservatives [B said:
I agree but who would you replace them with? :smile:
Agreed, any party in a majority would be better then the Conservatives in a majority.... the Harper/Cons have had enough time over the last number of years to prove themselves as leaders and being able to not only work with the other parties, but to prove to the rest of Canada that they can be trusted to hold a majority and thus, control over the country/government.
Nothing has improved, nothing has changed and every day that goes by, more and more corruption, pettiness, and Conservative party self interest actions are being exposed more and more..... and despite how some in here think they should have a Majority and that majority would be some sort of perfect utopia of perfection and order...... in reality, Harper will never gain a majority.
Perhaps the Conservatives will get a Majority some day, but the only way to do that is to can that helmet headed, self interest addicted, emotionless android.
The only reason...... THE ONLY reason why Harper is still Prime Minister is simply because Dion was incompetent, Iggy isn't much better and is only a duplicate of Harper, except he can actually smile without shattering...... and the rest of the country has been conditioned for decades to believe the NDP are some Neo Nazi party out to turn us into the next Soviet Union.
^ Yes I know how contradicting that claim towards the NDP is, yet so many around here believe it to be true due to so much BS tossed by the Liberals and Conservatives.
To be perfectly honest, Harper has to be one of the worst, if not THE worst Prime Minister in our history as a country...... and the only reason why he's lasted this long is because of the incompetence of the second largest party, the Liberals, and the populations' inability to vote for any other party besides the Liberals and Conservatives, thus continuing the cycle of those two parties forever being in control of the country for decades to come.
Which means they're both in a relatively comfy spot in the political spectrum via trading places from time to time.... thus they have no incentives to improve themselves or change their ways in representing our best interests..... and that is why I'll never vote for either of those parties (Among many other reasons)
.... That is also why voter turnout has been continually dropping each election........ that is also why our government has turned into a second-rate wrestling soap opera.... only without the physical action to keep anybody interested.
Whole lot of talk..... whole lot of shouting..... whole lot of villainization..... but no real action.
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