The Christian Lie :)

[Colpy]

Every time somebody claiming to be a Christian and motivated by Christian beliefs does something horrible, other Christians are quick to disavow the connection. I've heard that lame defense too many times, something horrible is done in the name of Christianity and other Christians dismiss it as not done by real Christians, who of course would never do such a thing. All the wars that raged across Europe for centuries, the destruction of aboriginal cultures around the world by colonizing European powers, the many crusades against Islam and the several mass murders of Jews on the way, the molestation of children by people in religious orders, slavery and the slave trade.... nope, none of it done by real Christians.

Nitpicking redefinitions of who is and is not a Christian don't get the church or its teachings off the hook. If people like bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers are Muslim terrorists, Breivik is a Christian terrorist, by any reasonable definition of the terms. Admit it and deal with it, anything else is simply a denial of any responsibility by the faith community.

Now, if you want to go back into history, and start listing off episodes of despicable acts in the name of the Christian Church.....nobody in their right mind could argue with you.

I could indeed argue that the massacres of Jews and Muslims in the Crusades were not done by "Christians"......but they were done at the behest of the Catholic Church........so I concede the point.

One could argue that the witch hunts were usually carried out by civil authorities, for personal or civic gain.........but once again, the institutions concerned were supported by the Church, so once again, I concede the point.

Certainly there has been much done by Christian priests and pastors that is evil, as in the molestation of children by individuals.....but I am not at all sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand.

As for Breivik, he does not represent any congregation of fellows, any institution of common theological belief, he acts only as an individual, and as an individual he has denied the very basis of Christian belief.....therefore he simply is not a Christian........

He could claim to be an elephant, but if he lacks both the basic characteristics of an elephant, and a organization of others that also claim to be elephants.....then he is not an elephant.

 

[MHz]

Certainly there has been much done by Christian priests and pastors that is evil, ....

In the calamity that was the exploration (and conquest) of the 'new world' it was not 'the Church' who was in charge of the boats and the soldiers that were part of those same boats. For lack of a better term it was the 'Governments of various Nations' and the slaughters they caused were at the orders of those same Government(s) and the main objective of that exploration was the search for newer and larger 'treasures' which was the prize the bankers were after. At least spread out the fact correctly as 'fixing religion' isn't going to dampen the evils that the Governments and Banks would still bring to the table.

 

[DaSleeper]

This thread needs a bit of...hmm levity???

Islamophobophobia: Politically Correct Persecution - YouTube
Did anyone watch to 2:45.....where it get's hilarious???
Now let's get serious...............


Jihad and the Arts - Pt.1 - YouTube

Jihad and the Arts - Pt.2 - YouTube

 

[MHz]

Was that with weapons made by Christians?

 

[lone wolf]

How can a book that was actually penned following several generations of hand-me-down stories be considered the word of any one person let alone a God? One person cannot speak word-for-word and in complete context to the next person - which renders gospel as gossip.

 

[MHz]

Unless they were written by the ones who actually lived the events (for the NT), for the OT the oral book was written in the time that Daniel and a few friends were in Babylon so the Angels that visited them would have been able to make sure every jot was just where God wanted them to be.

If the two fit like a hand in a glove then the gossip part is pretty much eliminated.

 

[lone wolf]

See why religion is losing out? Too many conditions on the man-made stuff.

 

[DaSleeper]

19 minutes of videos in a few minutes...good stuff

 

[Colpy]

In the calamity that was the exploration (and conquest) of the 'new world' it was not 'the Church' who was in charge of the boats and the soldiers that were part of those same boats. For lack of a better term it was the 'Governments of various Nations' and the slaughters they caused were at the orders of those same Government(s) and the main objective of that exploration was the search for newer and larger 'treasures' which was the prize the bankers were after. At least spread out the fact correctly as 'fixing religion' isn't going to dampen the evils that the Governments and Banks would still bring to the table.

Well, you know.......we could ignore the fact that the Catholic Church had Spanish priests ask curious groups of natives if they would like to accept Christ as their saviour.......in Latin.........and their refusal to answer was taken as a rejection of Christ, so the conquistadors were ordered to open fire.......

Or we can ignore the ejection of the Jesuits by the Pope from Portugese South America, and the ensuing slaughter of "tamed" native populations..........see the film The MIssion with Robert deNiro for an extremely accurate historical recounting of events.

It is also true that the cause of natives was taken up with great success by a Dominican, Bartholemew de las Casas......after a "road to Damascus" conversion from native slave owner........

But whitewashing the Catholic Church is ridiculous.

 

[MHz]

Since it isn't being followed (by the book, literally) maybe God saw that coming, no maybe's here is the verse and the falling away is from the truth of the original teachings. A Nation where Christians are 'supposed to be' the main force would not be waging 'perpetual war' on the weakest Nations in the World, it's that easy to understand. That doesn't automatically mean the gathering is anytime soon, this might be the half-way point so another 2,000 years and then the events related to the final few years will begin to unfold.

2Th.2:1
Now we beseech you,
brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th.2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled,
neither by spirit,
nor by word,
nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th.2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

Spanish priests ask curious groups of natives if they would like to accept Christ as their saviour.......in Latin.........and their refusal to answer was taken as a rejection of Christ, so the conquistadors were ordered to open fire.......

What makes you think they only loaded their 'weapons' after the questions were asked, perhaps the Missionaries knew that if they did it the 'proper way' it would be them that was going to die via the already loaded muskets/swords/blankets?

 

[Colpy]

What makes you think they only loaded their 'weapons' after the questions were asked, perhaps the Missionaries knew that if they did it the 'proper way' it would be them that was going to die via the already loaded muskets/swords/blankets?

Coherence is a wonderful thing; you should try it sometime.

Mentalfloss, I blame you for this....

 

[Tonington]

My parents are Catholic and they do not have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Are you saying they're not Christians?

Those Baptists...it's funny how some Christians treat Muslims like a monolithic group, when Christians themselves are not...

 

[MHz]

Coherence is a wonderful thing; you should try it sometime.

Mentalfloss, I blame you for this....

Are you seriously going to promote the Soldiers took orders from a few missionaries?? I suppose you also think/promote the Canadian Gov didn't have a clue what was going on in the RCC Schools. They most likely had watchers there the whole time.

BTW are you wearing a mosque on your head? (I'm also that bald naturally so don't get too upset)

 

[Cliffy]

Are you seriously going to promote the Soldiers took orders from a few missionaries?? I suppose you also think/promote the Canadian Gov didn't have a clue what was going on in the RCC Schools. They most likely had watchers there the whole time.

BTW are you wearing a mosque on your head? (I'm also that bald naturally so don't get too upset)

The catholics were not the only Christians involved in the residential schools. The United and Anglicans were just as guilty. And yes, the soldiers took their orders from priests. The Pope, at the time, had more power than most European monarchs. What I find interesting is that protestants bad mouth the Roman Catholic Church when it was the church that gave you the bible. Seems a little funny to me.

 

[damngrumpy]

Any group Christian or otherwise that preaches hatred or bigotry, is not representative of the
religion they advocate for. There are Christian groups that are violent no question about it, but
they are not the mainstream.
Any and all religion should and in written form claim to be about forgiveness and redemption.
The ones that claim they are the only road to heaven and all others are evil, infidels or lost
with no value, have serious flaws that followers might want to consider the direction they might
be going.
Faith in and of itself is not a lie, the manipulation of the faith for purposes other than the above
mentioned is a lie. I am not a devout believer in this or that, but I recognize all of us are as
different as the personal beliefs we hold. I respect peoples right to believe and worship as they
see fit. Here is where I draw the line.

1 When people incite others to take part in hate thus become bullies first.
2 Those who advocate the killing of others because of what they believe.
3 Where people proclaim God is on their side so they have a right to deny others their due.
4 Where religious groups attempt to use the political arena to deprive others of their rights.
5 Where some religious groups use the institutions of government to deny people their
rights.

These are examples of religion gone mad in some parts of the world, even in some so called
Christian Countries. Fanatics exist in all religions it is up to the mainstream folks within the
churches to ensure zealots do not take control of their faith center whatever that might be.

 

[MHz]

The catholics were not the only Christians involved in the residential schools. The United and Anglicans were just as guilty. And yes, the soldiers took their orders from priests. The Pope, at the time, had more power than most European monarchs. What I find interesting is that protestants bad mouth the Roman Catholic Church when it was the church that gave you the bible. Seems a little funny to me.

That's true and the latest round of legal issues around the residential schools include them as being culprits. I used the RCC as that is who is mostly known to run them, the Government would also be knee-deep in the way they were run as they were the ones who instigated the way things went after the Treaties were signed.
I would question your assertion that the soldiers were under the command of the Church over the Crown though and the wealth reaped may have been shared but the Crown (Government) reaped the biggest share by far. Nor were the merchant boats that followed the soldiers under the command of the Church.
The RCC was opposed to the material the KJV Bible used which was the original Greek and the original Hebrew. I won't argue that the Holy Bible was assembled by the RCC in about 323AD but something changed in that Church by 1611 or they would not have been in opposition to the material being used.
Does that clear up the 'funny part'?

Here is where I draw the line.

1 When people incite others to take part in hate thus become bullies first.
2 Those who advocate the killing of others because of what they believe.
3 Where people proclaim God is on their side so they have a right to deny others their due.
4 Where religious groups attempt to use the political arena to deprive others of their rights.
5 Where some religious groups use the institutions of government to deny people their
rights.

These are examples of religion gone mad in some parts of the world, even in some so called
Christian Countries. Fanatics exist in all religions it is up to the mainstream folks within the
churches to ensure zealots do not take control of their faith center whatever that might be.

With only some slight changes your list could be made to show that Governments can also be as corrupt (without the Church being an influence) when it comes to dealing fairly with other Nations. An example would be the war in Iraq, the promise that gas would be cheap (under $2/gal) for a long, long time was enough to stifle any complaints from many.

 

[mentalfloss]

Coherence is a wonderful thing; you should try it sometime.

Mentalfloss, I blame you for this....

Do I look like an Islamicicicist to you?

Anyway, I'm glad that the main crux of this thread actually had some closure. It's a welcome change from the rest of Indecision 2011.

 

[wulfie68]

My parents are Catholic and they do not have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Are you saying they're not Christians?

Are you positive about your parents? Anyone who prays to or asks forgiveness from God has that personal relationship with him. You don't have to hear voices in their head or any of that stuff.

Now I don't consider this Norwegian monster a true Christian, by virtue of his actions but then I don't consider Bill O'Really and his ilk Christian either: Jesus taught love, acceptance and forgiveness of those who wronged you, whereas most modern fundamentalists are more Judaist in their adherence to the Old testament and its penchant for vengeance, exclusion and punishment (although most of the Jewish faith have many centuries of persecution to temper and mute their reactions to the more unforgiving aspects of their faith: they are more about enduring and carrying on than seeking revenge).

And no, I'm not a Christian either: at best I would be a theist agnostic.

 

[taxslave]

If this wacko represents christianity, then it must be a religion of hate and intolerance just like islam is according to some.
Fortunately these few do not represent the many of all the various religions. They just make the news.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Christianity has had a less then exemplary record when it comes to a number of issues. The Catholic church was despicable in how it handled the multitudes of sexual molestations that when on under its very nose. In fact I would go so far as to say that some high ranking officials were complicit in the scandal. That, along with the treatment of aboriginals in similar situations.

When I think of extremism, I think of Jim Jones and the massacre in Guyana or David Koresh and the senseless murder of so many because of one man's insanity.

Extremism is alive and well in Christianity.

The Westboro Baptist Church is a byproduct of such extremism.

'God Hates Fags' on Q TV - YouTube

I'm not a huge fan of Michael Moore, but this is very funny.

Michael Moore vs Fred Phelps - YouTube.

I know that Christianity has an awful lot of knuckledraggers still in its ranks. For the most part we Westerners are quick to identify those knuckledraggers and disassociate ourselves. There is no excuse for the actions of these self proclaimed Christians or the scandals that have been covered up.

They are equally disgusting.

Thankfully we do not have a government or population that endorses the extreme elements of the faith.