Shame on Canada! re: Propaganda and Canada's Support of Ethnic Cleansing.

ironsides

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"Israel admits Hamas never fired a single rocket during the ceasefire until after Israel attacked Hamas" More BS from people with single cell brains.

"Not only did Hamas not fire rockets during the ceasefire, they arrested militants that did" BS
 

ironsides

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If your really interested, this is the best answer as to why.

Hamas, a terrorist organization, vowed to destroy Israel (it is in their charter).
A quarter of a million Israeli citizens have been living under incessant terror attacks from the Gaza Strip with thousands of missiles fired over the past eight years.
These missiles have been described as "home made" by the media. They are, in fact, deadly manufactured missiles. Hamas has in its possession longer range Katyushas and Grad-type missiles which can cause devastation such as that on Monday 29 December as one Israeli was killed and 14 injured in a Grad attack on Ashkelon.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, giving Palestinians the chance to run their own lives. Despite this, more than 6300 rockets and mortars have been fired into Israel since then.
During the past year alone, more than 3000 rockets and mortars have been launched into Israel.
Since the end of a formal ceasefire (during which terror attacks continued) with Hamas came to an end on Dec. 19, more than 170 rockets and mortars have been fired at Israeli civilians including a barrage of some 80 missiles on Dec. 24 alone.
As US President-elect Obama stated during a visit to Sderot five months ago, "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."
No other country in the world would have exercised the amount of restraint that Israel has shown for the past several years without responding. As for what constitutes excessive force, Israel did what they had to do. Neither Hama's or Israel were fighting on a open plain, they were in a crowded city. collateral damage was inevitable. (the populace did aid and support Hamas)


 

earth_as_one

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I doubt Israel's attack on the Hamas "tunnel" or defensive fortification was anything more than a deliberate attempt to provoke a response from Hamas.

A more likely reason why Israel's leaders violated the ceasefire and started a battle which killed 1300 Palestinians was a cynical attempt by Israel's leaders to boost their chances of getting re-elected. I guess deliberately killing about 600 children in cold blood isn't quite enought to win an election in Israel. It looks like Israelis have decided to vote in favor of leaders who want to cleanse Israel of non Jews and commit war crimes rather than just leaders who want to commit war crimes.

The Israeli government coalition was heading into an election with Israeli voters still angry over the way they mishandled the 2006 Lebanon battle. They needed another battle to redeem themselves and decided puny Gaza was a solution to their political misfortunes.

In June 2008, the international community pressured and embarassed Israel's leaders into a ceasefire agreeement with Hamas. But Israel's leaders hoped that the ceasefire wouldn't last and would provide an excuse to raze Gaza when they could blame some event on Hamas as a ceasefire violation. When the ceasefire took hold, Hamas held up their end of the agreement, to their disappointment. Israel leaders then tried to incrementally provoke Hamas by failing to meet their ceasefire obligations. But blocking food and medicine failed to provoke a response from Hamas. Sniping at civilians, farmers and fisherman still failed to provoke Hamas. With time running out before the Feb 2009 Israeli elections, Israel's leaders decided to provoke Hamas in a way they could not ignore, so on Nov 4 2008, they bombed a Hamas defense fortification claiming it was a tunnel to Israel. November 4 was chosen because it was the same day Americans elected Barack Obama. That can't be a coincidence. That's the one day they knew well in advance that their actions would not get news coverage. Of course Hamas had to respond to a deliberate and unprovoked ceasefire violation which killed six Hamas soldiers. Israel used Hamas's response as justification to escalate the conflict. Israel ignored repeated attempts by Hamas to return to the terms of the original ceasefire which Israel never respected from the start. Israel waited until the ceasefire officially expired before launching their assault on Gaza which killed over 1300 people half of whom were children. But it looks like even that wasn't enough to win the elections.
 
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einmensch

Electoral Member
Mar 1, 2008
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Israel is to be defended right or wrong. It is not a matter of being objective and thinking. Factual information is anti-semitic. Israel is defending itself. Gaza certainly can't and the world is shutting it's ears and eyes. Egypt and Jordan
are paid for. Shiite Iran is supplying arms to Sunni Hamas. Hamas with this modern military equipment that it is receiving from Iran , manged to stop not one Israeli bomber, missile, Israeli tank, nor slow the advance of bulldozers and Israeli soldiers. Israel did manage to destroy food, utilities, shelter, hospitals, schools and tunnels needed for food and supplies. (How did the people in the Warsaw Ghetto get supplies in and goods put?)
Do you think that these children will become Jew haters?
How do the conditions in Gaza compare to the conditions in the Warsaw Ghetto?


Anyone have a death toll and dammage $ estimate for all of the Hamas rocket attacks? Under 30 dead Israelis since 2001? Correct me?

Israel still doesn't have their 3 soldiers back do they?

Anyway-I thought that Israel let Gaza go-set Gaza free? BUT Israel cotrols all the border crossings, collects the tax, decides on water, assasinates at will,, shoots 3 Egyptian border guards and Egypt and the world remain silent. BECAUSE ISRAEL is right. Israel is never at fault. Just look at all the excuses and reasons Israel gives for it's moral and lawful actions. Israel has the right to defend itself.

Might is right ask Mighty Mouse.
so go away you ????????!
 

earth_as_one

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If your really interested, this is the best answer as to why.

Hamas, a terrorist organization, vowed to destroy Israel (it is in their charter).
A quarter of a million Israeli citizens have been living under incessant terror attacks from the Gaza Strip with thousands of missiles fired over the past eight years.
These missiles have been described as "home made" by the media. They are, in fact, deadly manufactured missiles. Hamas has in its possession longer range Katyushas and Grad-type missiles which can cause devastation such as that on Monday 29 December as one Israeli was killed and 14 injured in a Grad attack on Ashkelon.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, giving Palestinians the chance to run their own lives. Despite this, more than 6300 rockets and mortars have been fired into Israel since then.
During the past year alone, more than 3000 rockets and mortars have been launched into Israel.
Since the end of a formal ceasefire (during which terror attacks continued) with Hamas came to an end on Dec. 19, more than 170 rockets and mortars have been fired at Israeli civilians including a barrage of some 80 missiles on Dec. 24 alone.
As US President-elect Obama stated during a visit to Sderot five months ago, "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."
No other country in the world would have exercised the amount of restraint that Israel has shown for the past several years without responding. As for what constitutes excessive force, Israel did what they had to do. Neither Hama's or Israel were fighting on a open plain, they were in a crowded city. collateral damage was inevitable. (the populace did aid and support Hamas)



The only time Hamas fires rockets at Israel is when Israel commits acts of violence. During the ceasefire, Hamas never fired one rocket or mortar at Israel until after israel broke the ceasefire on November 4, 2008. Even Israel admits that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SILJxPTqjAM


So using Hamas firing rockets at Israel as justification for Israel violating a ceasefire is false. On November 4, 2008 Israel deliberately violated the ceasefire with an unprovoked attack on Hamas.

If israel did not want Hamas firing rockets at Israel then they did not have to kill 1300 people to do it. They could have just respected their ceasefire agreement. That meant not killing Hamas militants or Gaza civilians and allowing international humanitarian food and medical aid into Gaza without restrictions. Going into Gaza with guns blazing like they did on November 4, 2008 was a predictable way Israel's leaders could provoke Hamas into firing their highly ineffective rockets. It appears deliberate and unprovoked. Maybe someone can offer proof to the contrary? Colpy?

If Israel wanted Hamas to stop firing rockets, they could have accepted Hamas's repeated requests for a return to the terms of the original ceasefire.

Obviously Israel is not interested in peace, especially if war increases an Israeli leader's chance of winning an election. See previous post by me above.
 
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Zzarchov

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Earth,

You keep acting like the Truce was with Hamas, the truce with with Gaza , run by the elected government of Hamas.


Thats like saying that George Bush isn't responsible for Iraq because the Republican party didn't invade, the US military did.
 

earth_as_one

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Sorry you are wrong. Hamas can only be held responsible for their own actions. As per their ceasefire obligations, they did not attack Israel and arrested anyone who did. Israel never allowed the free flow of international humanitarian food and medical aid, or open Gaza's borders to trade:

Israel Agrees to Truce with Hamas on Gaza

June 18, 2008

JERUSALEM — The prime minister and defense minister of Israel have agreed to an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire with Hamas for the Gaza area starting Thursday, Israel Radio reported on Wednesday morning.

Egyptian and Hamas officials had already announced on Tuesday that a deal had been reached.

An unidentified senior Egyptian official told the state news agency MENA, "The Palestinian and Israeli sides have accepted the first stage of a reciprocal and simultaneous period of calm, starting in the Gaza Strip, from 0600 on Thursday."
Mahmoud Zahar, a leader of Hamas, the Islamist group that controls Gaza, confirmed at a news conference there on Tuesday evening that a truce was about to come into effect and that it would last for six months.

A senior Israeli defense ministry official, Amos Gilad, traveled to Cairo on Tuesday night to receive final clarifications from the Egyptians. On his return Wednesday morning, he told Israel Radio that an understanding had been achieved.

Maintaining a note of caution, Defense Minister Ehud Barak of Israel said on Tuesday that it was "difficult to determine how long" an agreement would last....

The New York Times > Log In

Apparently he meant that it would last until Israel's leaders decided killing Gazans would improve their chances of winning an election.
 

earth_as_one

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Despite Hamas's 100% compliance with their truce obligations, Israel continued to block international food and humanitarian aid from entering Gaza:

Haniyeh: All Palestinian factions should honor truce

Ismail Haniyeh calls on all Palestinian groups in Gaza to maintain ceasefire several hours after two mortar shells fired at Israel; Hamas leader says Palestinians accepted truce in order to lift Gaza siege Roee Nahmias Published: 06.27.08, 16:36 / Israel News

Hamas wants quiet in Gaza: Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel.

"The factions and the people accepted the lull in order to secure two interests – an end to aggression and the lifting of the siege. Therefore, we hope that everyone honors this national agreement," he said following Friday prayers.

Earliar Friday, two mortar shells were fired at Israel from the northern Gaza Strip. One landed near Kibbutz Kfar Aza in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, and the second one hit an open area. There were no reports of injuries or damage in the latest violation of the fragile ceasefire.


On Thursday, a Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip at Israel exploded near a gas station in an open area in Sderot's industrial zone. There were no injuries.

The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Fatah's military wing, claimed responsibility for firing that rocket...

Haniyeh: All Palestinian factions should honor truce - Israel News, Ynetnews

Hamas arrests first rocket squads since truce

GAZA, July 10 (Reuters) - Hamas arrested seven Palestinians who fired rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, a militant faction said, in the first such detentions since the Islamist group and Israel agreed a truce last month.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a group linked to President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah group, said Hamas men pursued three of its its members after the attack and "abducted them" in Jabalya refugee camp.


No one was hurt in the strike with two rockets on southern Israel.

Four more men were arrested as they tried to fire rockets at Israel after darkness fell, an al-Aqsa official said....

Reuters AlertNet - Hamas arrests first rocket squads since truce

Truce barely eases Gaza embargo
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Truce barely eases Gaza embargo
 

Zzarchov

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Sorry you are wrong. Hamas can only be held responsible for their own actions.

Wrong. They are acting in the capacity as a government. If they cannot assert control over their administrative region, then they lose the recognition of a government and any agreements they signed are void.

This is no different than why the Republic of China (Taiwan) was replaced in the UN by the Peoples Republic of China.

If Hamas can't control their territory, then they aren't the government of that Territory. Israel signed an agreement for No Missiles, not "No rockets from Hamas", hamas could not live up to its end, be it intentional or not.

Its that simple.
 

earth_as_one

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Hamas came as close as possible to completely eliminating the rockets fired at Israel. The took action against anyone violating the truce. This graph shows how effective they were at reducing and nearly eliminating the number of rockets and mortars fired at Gaza.



At the rate Hamas was going, they would have completely elimintated rocket and mortar attacks. When Israel violated the ceasefire on November 4, 2008, the attacks were almost completely eliminated.

If Israel's leaders truly cared about protecting their citizens more than they cared about getting re-elected, they would not have broke their ceasefire agreement the day Americans elected Barack Obama.
 
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Colpy

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Hamas came as close as possible to completely eliminating the rockets fired at Israel. The took action against anyone violating the truce. This graph shows how effective they were at reducing and nearly eliminating the number of rockets and mortars fired at Gaza.



At the rate Hamas was going, they would have completely elimintated rocket and mortar attacks. When Israel violated the ceasefire on November 4, 2008, the attacks were almost completely eliminated.

If Israel's leaders truly cared about protecting their citizens more than they cared about getting re-elected, they would not have broke their ceasefire agreement the day Americans elected Barack Obama.

So, the 188 (that is one hundred and eighty-eight!) mortar and rocket attacks launched from Gaza between June and October inclusive.....they are NOT treaty violations, but Israel's SINGLE (that's 1) attack on Nov 4, in claimed self-defence, WAS a treaty violation.....

EAO, give your head a shake!
 

earth_as_one

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Hey Colpy, give your head a shake. I only count 37 attacks between June18 when the truce started and the October 2008. I'm pretty sure no attacks against Israel happened in November until after Israel violated the ceasefire on November 4, 2008.

In fact I only count 2 attacks in October, down from 4 the month before and 11 the month before that. Looks like a trend towards 0 to me. Also not a single one of those attacks were carried out by Hamas. In fact Hamas was arresting people who violated the ceasefire.

None of these rockets fired in defiance of Hamas killed a single Israeli. How many hundreds of children should Israel be murder for this minor inconvenience? Do a few craters in a farmer's field justify starving 1.5 million people?

If Israel was so sure their November 4, 2008 attack was justified then why did they choose a busy news day when they knew the world would be distracted by US presidential elections. Looks to me like Israel tried to pull a fast one while no one was looking.
 
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earth_as_one

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This was an unnecesary war:

An Unnecessary War


[SIZE=-1]By [/SIZE]Jimmy Carter
[SIZE=-1]Thursday, January 8, 2009; A15[/SIZE]


I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.

After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. About 3,000 residents had moved to other communities, and the streets, playgrounds and shopping centers were almost empty. Mayor Eli Moyal assembled a group of citizens in his office to meet us and complained that the government of Israel was not stopping the rockets, either through diplomacy or military action.

Knowing that we would soon be seeing Hamas leaders from Gaza and also in Damascus, we promised to assess prospects for a cease-fire. From Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, who was negotiating between the Israelis and Hamas, we learned that there was a fundamental difference between the two sides. Hamas wanted a comprehensive cease-fire in both the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israelis refused to discuss anything other than Gaza.

We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.

Palestinian leaders from Gaza were noncommittal on all issues, claiming that rockets were the only way to respond to their imprisonment and to dramatize their humanitarian plight. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus, however, agreed to consider a cease-fire in Gaza only, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.

After extended discussions with those from Gaza, these Hamas leaders also agreed to accept any peace agreement that might be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the PLO, provided it was approved by a majority vote of Palestinians in a referendum or by an elected unity government.

Since we were only observers, and not negotiators, we relayed this information to the Egyptians, and they pursued the cease-fire proposal. After about a month, the Egyptians and Hamas informed us that all military action by both sides and all rocket firing would stop on June 19, for a period of six months, and that humanitarian supplies would be restored to the normal level that had existed before Israel's withdrawal in 2005 (about 700 trucks daily).

We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted.

After 12 days of "combat," the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators.

The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace.

The writer was president from 1977 to 1981. He founded the Carter Center, a nongovernmental organization advancing peace and health worldwide, in 1982.

Jimmy Carter - An Unnecessary War
 

Colpy

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Jimmy Carter should stick to his very good work with Habitat for Humanity.....

Every time he gets involved in foreign policy, it is a bloody disaster.
 

earth_as_one

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Carter is a honest voice of peace and reason in this conflict. Both sides of the conflict respect Carter as an honest broker and without his actions the truce wouldn't have happened in the first place. Carter knows the people involved personally and he is far more knowledgeable about this conflict than you are or I. Carter is a far more objective and trustworthy source of information than the Israeli government.

Did you notice Carter used the word defensive above to describe the tunnel Israel attacked when they ended the truce on November 4, 2008? I bolded it and made it big just for you. You understand what that means?

Israel's leaders are cold blooded killers who cynically slaughtered 1300 people (half of whm were children) just to improve their odds of winning an election.

 
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lone wolf

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Jimmy Carter should stick to his very good work with Habitat for Humanity.....

Every time he gets involved in foreign policy, it is a bloody disaster.

Yeah ... like Camp David where the shooting actually stopped in the Mid-East. Can't have that now can we?

I know ... Iran held those hostages for Reagan because they wanted to kill Israelis....
 

Just the Facts

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You missed my point. I wasn't denying "rocket squads" were "arrested". My point was, Hamas doesn't arrest those who defy them. They shoot them. :cool:

Also how many rockets and mortars did Hamas fire at Israel between June 19, 2008 (the start of the ceasefire) until November 4, 2008 (Israel attacks Hamas in violation of the ceasefire)?

YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008


Yeah yeah, I know. It wasn't hamas. It was the "others". Nobody cares. A rocket fired from Gaza is a rocket fired from Gaza. It's a ceasefire violation.

God help the Palestinians if Israel ever decided to play that doublespeak game.
 

Just the Facts

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Going into Gaza with guns blazing like they did on November 4, 2008 was a predictable way Israel's leaders could provoke Hamas into firing their highly ineffective rockets. It appears deliberate and unprovoked. Maybe someone can offer proof to the contrary? Colpy?

The ceasefire was a last ditch diplomatic effort to prevent the neccessity of Israel going into Gaza "guns a blazing". It didn't work. Rockets have been flying into Israel from Gaza for almost a decade now. Thosands and thousands of them. Deliberate and unprovoked. The Israeli incursion was not unpredicatable. It was expected for a long time. Israel was given no reason to call it off.

Furthermore, dead, is dead. It makes no difference if you're killed by a highly effective weapon or a highly ineffective weapon.

Perhaps you can explain to these girls how highly ineffective Palestinian weapons are:

Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Gaza rocket kills Palestinian girls

This also further emphasizes how the lack of Israeli casualties due to rocket fire has so very much more to do with the highly effective preparedness of the Israeli people to take defensive action than it does with the ineffectiveness of the weapons used against them.

If Israel wanted Hamas to stop firing rockets, they could have accepted Hamas's repeated requests for a return to the terms of the original ceasefire.

Those "repeated requests" were disingenuous and saddled with conditions. One can similarly say, if Hamas was interested in peace, they could have stopped firing rockets years ago.

Here's an example of how interested in peace Hamas is:

Military sources: IDF to redeploy troops from Gaza if truce holds - Haaretz - Israel News

People interested in peace don't give a final what for just prior to a truce taking effect. Hamas' behaviour demonstrates loud and clear that they see a truce as a tactical maneauver, not as a legitimate first step to a lasting peace. That much is abundantly clear.

Edit: just to be clear, this is the relevant part of the article:

The truce began a day after about 30 Qassam rockets were fired from the Strip at communities along its border, lightly wounding one woman.
Moments before the truce took hold, the Israel Air Force killed a member of a Qassam rocket squad preparing to launch near the Bureij refugee camp in central Gaza. Palestinian sources said the man killed was a Hamas operative.


TheStar.com - World - Future of Israel-Hamas truce uncertain
Hamas officials have been sending mixed signals in recent days concerning their approach to the ceasefire. On Sunday, Khaled Meshal, the Damascus-based head of the group's political bureau, said Hamas is not interested in renewing the truce.

A little tidbit from the above link you may find interesting: Under the June agreement, Hamas is supposed to prevent other militant groups in the territory from carrying out attacks against Israel.

Obviously Israel is not interested in peace, especially if war increases an Israeli leader's chance of winning an election. See previous post by me above.

Maybe someone can offer proof? :p

What happened during the ceasefire? | False Dichotomies
A good summary of the facts.
 
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