Poll:- life better now or in 1959?

[SirJosephPorter]

We may make more money but the cost of living has gone up much higher and faster than wages can compete with. The cost and variety of stuff to buy has increased at an astronomical rate. That is why people are way in over their heads in dept. You didn't see that level of dept in '59. People were a lot more sensible about borrowing back then too.

No it hasn’t Cliffy, read the statistics. We make 85% more today compared to 50 years ago, adjusting for inflation.

When it come to prices, inflation etc. personal opinion can play false, it is always better to look at statistics. And statistics tell us a completely different story. Personal incomes are 85% more today compared to 50 years ago.

If you calculate how long the average person has to work to buy a car, to buy milk, loaf of bread etc. (that removes inflation for the picture completely), you will find that he has to work a lot less today than he had to 50 year ago.

You are right about the debt, but there are different reasons for that. The reason is not that people are earning less, they are earning plenty, much more than 50 years ago.

 

[JLM]

"However, statistical evidence is the only objective evidence, and that is what I sue to form my opinion, not somebody’s personal opinion."

Maybe but personal opinion can be more accurate than statistics.

 

[Cliffy]

In 1978 I made $10 an hour. Today, I make $10 an hour. Tell me how my earnings have gone up. What is $10 worth today in 1978 dollars? $3.50?

 

[JLM]

In 1978 I made $10 an hour. Today, I make $10 an hour. Tell me how my earnings have gone up. What is $10 worth today in 1978 dollars? $3.50?

If that!

 

[AnnaG]

JLM, that 7.43 is the magic number, let us see how much these items cost in 1959, in terms of today’s dollars:

Bread – 20 cents a loaf. That would make it 1.48$ in today’s money, not much different from today.

About 155% increase.

Milk – 20 cents a quart. That would make it 1.48$ per quart or 5.92$ a gallon. Please note that milk is much cheaper today than 50 years ago.

What’s that got to do with the price of milk? : Diary of an Average Australian I don't see much difference in price.

Gas – 40 cents a gallon, that is 2.96$ in today’s money, which is 78 cents a litre, not much different from today.

It's $1.03 here. That's 132% increase

5 $ pair of jean would cost 37 $ in today’s money. I have no idea what jeans cost today, so I don’t know if it is cheap by today’s standards or not.

I looked at Mark's Work Wearhouse and their jeans range from about $30 to about $60 a pair. Let's take the center at $45. That's 121% increase.

But adjust it for inflation, and prices don’t seem all that different from today. Then consider the fact that people make 85% more today than 50 years ago (accounting for inflation), and everything is relatively cheaper today than 50 years ago.

So 20 cents a quart milk, 5 $ for a pair of jeans may sound cheap, but it really wasn’t.

Let's compare vehicles. It cost $2900 for a fully loaded Chevy Impala in 1959. Adjust for inflation; $21,547 It costs $31,000 for a comparably equipped Impala now. That's a 143% increase. It's hardly chump change in my books.
How about houses?

So 120+% increases in the costs of goods and only 85% increase in wages. You work for the government until the end of the first week in June now. You worked for the gov't until the end of the 1st week in March back then. Somewhere among this you think there's more takehome pay now than then. I'd like to see how you figure that.
Then there's the added burden on each of us of the national debt. What was the national debt back then? Under $20 billion. What is it now? $505 billion. That's an increase of 25,250%. The population back then was about 17.5 million. It's now 33.9 million. The GDP has risen only about 260%.

It's no wonder you don't read my posts. It isn't because of name-calling, it's because you can't stand your errors being corrected in almost every one of your posts.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

In 1978 I made $10 an hour. Today, I make $10 an hour. Tell me how my earnings have gone up. What is $10 worth today in 1978 dollars? $3.50?

We are talking here of averages (or median income), Cliffy. These are statistical concepts; they cannot be applied to individual cases. The fact that most people are better off today doesn’t mean that everybody is better off, there are bound to be a few who are worse off.

What that means is that if you take say, 100,000 people, then 99,000 would be better off today. But a handful would be no better off and a handful would actually be worse off.

Incidentally, 10$/hr was a princely sum in 1978, today it is not far removed from the minimum wage.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"However, statistical evidence is the only objective evidence, and that is what I sue to form my opinion, not somebody’s personal opinion."

Maybe but personal opinion can be more accurate than statistics.

Personal opinion is never more accurate that statistics, at best it may be in agreement with statistics and then it is correct. If it is not in agreement with statistics, most of the time it is wrong (unless statistics are flawed due to some reason).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

In 1978 I made $10 an hour. Today, I make $10 an hour. Tell me how my earnings have gone up. What is $10 worth today in 1978 dollars? $3.50?

You can use the website I gave, Cliffy. It calculates inflation from any year in the past. 10 $ in 1978 is same as 30.48 % today.

Inflation Calculator- Other- Rates and Statistics- Bank of Canada

So 10 $ today would be worth 3.28 $ back in 1978.

 

[JLM]

Personal opinion is never more accurate that statistics, at best it may be in agreement with statistics and then it is correct. If it is not in agreement with statistics, most of the time it is wrong (unless statistics are flawed due to some reason).

It is no use carrying on this argument, if all you are going to do is use statistics on inflation to prove your point. For instance take a pair of jeans you can go through all types of hoops and rigmarole to come up with a $ but so what if the quality of the jeans today is inferior (or superior) then the whole exercise is a moot point. All the standards have changed. Like I said before kids in the 1959 may have been happy with a deck of cards or a hockey puck for a Xmas present, try giving the same gift today and your child would have you charged with child abuse. In 1959 if someone slipped and fell on your steps and scraped his knee you would bring him in the house, put a band aid on it and give him a cup of coffee and that would be the end of it. Today and a year later in court he'd come out with a $million. It's a different world and in most ways much more vicious. I'm not going to read any more posts citing statistics, they are garbage.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Again JLM, if it is statistics against your personal opinion, I will believe statistics any day.

I must say that is indeed a very strange attitude. There is overwhelming statistical evidence to show that we are much better off today compared to 50 years ago, much wealthier, healthier, live longer, are more tolerant, much more advanced scientifically and technologically etc.

Yet you want us to disregard all that and take your word for it that things were absolutely perfect 50 years ago and are the pits today? Well, it is quite possible that some posters will take your word for it, but not me. Give me statistics any day.

I'm not going to read any more posts citing statistics, they are garbage.

Of course you are not, because they don't support your point of view.

 

[lone wolf]

Potty, what is it you have against folk expressing opinion - for which the OP sought - especially when they don't measure up to yours? What disrespectful and arrogant behaviour on your part. Did you stop maturing at 10?

 

[JLM]

Again JLM, if it is statistics against your personal opinion, I will believe statistics any day.

I must say that is indeed a very strange attitude. There is overwhelming statistical evidence to show that we are much better off today compared to 50 years ago, much wealthier, healthier, live longer, are more tolerant, much more advanced scientifically and technologically etc.

Yet you want us to disregard all that and take your word for it that things were absolutely perfect 50 years ago and are the pits today? Well, it is quite possible that some posters will take your word for it, but not me. Give me statistics any day.




Of course you are not, because they don't support your point of view.

AND FOR A VERY GOOD REASON, the things that make life better can't be measured in mathematical terms which is what statistics are. WHY is this such a hard concept for you to understand? Virtually everyone else posting on here understands it. Life is about such things as love and feelings and consideration, not how much you have jingling in your jeans. Life is like seeing expressions on your grand children's faces or like seeing the smile on an old down & outer's face when you buy him a cup of coffee. How do those kinds of things get statisticized?

 

[Cliffy]

Life is about such things as love and feelings and consideration, not how much you have jingling in your jeans.

Who got stuff jingling in their jeans? Someone with glass balls?
Jingle Balls, Jingle Balls. Jingle all the way!

 

[SirJosephPorter]

AND FOR A VERY GOOD REASON, the things that make life better can't be measured in mathematical terms which is what statistics are. WHY is this such a hard concept for you to understand? Virtually everyone else posting on here understands it. Life is about such things as love and feelings and consideration, not how much you have jingling in your jeans. Life is like seeing expressions on your grand children's faces or like seeing the smile on an old down & outer's face when you buy him a cup of coffee. How do those kinds of things get statisticized?

But those are all personal things JLM; those are up to the individual. What do those things have to do whether it is 1959 or 2009? What you say holds true for all times, I don’t see how that is relevant to the discussion here.

Quality of life is made up by the tangibles and the intangibles. The intangibles you mention are up to the individual to attain or not as he wishes. There is really no way to characterize it as being better 50 years ago to today, it all depends upon the individual.

We can quantify the tangibles however, and when it comes to them, we are at a definite advantage today.

You seem to think that quality of life is exclusively made up of intangibles (love, feelings consideration etc.). That is not the case. Without money, without creature comforts, these things don’t matter all that much. If somebody is starving he does not need, love, consideration etc., he needs food, which needs money to buy.

So I expect we will always disagree on this, as I understand it, you think that things such as love feelings, consideration is what makes for good quality of life. I think that monetary considerations, good health, longevity, tolerance towards others, lack of discrimination is also important, in addition to the qualities you mention (love, consideration etc.).

Let us just agree to disagree here.

 

[lone wolf]

Tolerance towards others? YOU?

Forgive the laughter. I know it's one of those human things - like love and compassion - and way beyond your comprehension....

 

[JLM]

But those are all personal things JLM; those are up to the individual. What do those things have to do whether it is 1959 or 2009? What you say holds true for all times, I don’t see how that is relevant to the discussion here.

Quality of life is made up by the tangibles and the intangibles. The intangibles you mention are up to the individual to attain or not as he wishes. There is really no way to characterize it as being better 50 years ago to today, it all depends upon the individual.

We can quantify the tangibles however, and when it comes to them, we are at a definite advantage today.

You seem to think that quality of life is exclusively made up of intangibles (love, feelings consideration etc.). That is not the case. Without money, without creature comforts, these things don’t matter all that much. If somebody is starving he does not need, love, consideration etc., he needs food, which needs money to buy.

So I expect we will always disagree on this, as I understand it, you think that things such as love feelings, consideration is what makes for good quality of life. I think that monetary considerations, good health, longevity, tolerance towards others, lack of discrimination is also important, in addition to the qualities you mention (love, consideration etc.).

Let us just agree to disagree here.

To a certain extent but it's mainly about feelings. There's an old saying to the effect that after an altercation with someone, you probably won't remember exactly what he/she did, what he/she said, but you'll always remember how he/she made you feel.

 

[petros]

Even if you incorporate yourself, there will still be the 'person' you who has to pay personal income tax.

Ahh but there is a hitch. You then set up the "Me" NPO and spend whatever you want on yourself for the betterment of yourself.

In this society stubbing your toe qualifies you as disabled and eligible for NPO status.