Israel threatens 'disproportionate' response to Hamas rocket fire

[Zzarchov]

Hamas has only been around for 20 years. The violence been constant in this area for much longer than 20 years. That would imply Hamas is an effect not a cause.

Hamas itself yes. But now aren't you being a little silly? The Hamas is an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood, which goes back alot further. Or can you only blame Israels current governing party for their actions, lasting only as long as their previous election.

If you are looking for a cause you have to go back to when this area used to peaceful. That's only about 100 years ago.

When Turkish soldiers lined arabs against walls and shot them dead on a routine basis? Ya, real peaceful.

This area became violent soon after the Zionists arrived in numbers. That was about 90 years ago. This area became seriously violent soon after WW II and by 1947, Zionists were openly cleansing Palestine of Palestinians to make way for Jewish state. Its been violent ever since.

It was violent long before that, Zionists were invited in by the Turkish authorities to counterbalance Arab Immigration and stop Arab Nationalism from usurping the Turkish (Ottoman) Empire. The place has been a warzone alot longer than that. I suppose you believe Iraq was all lolipops without violence before America invaded too, ignoring that the nation was embroiled in a civil war with 1/3 of the country outside of central government control and another 1/3rd under martial law.

The place has been a violent nightmare warzone between Arab nationalists and colonists versus any other group in the region, including later Turkish Imperials and colonists, and then Jewish colonists.

Personally I believe there will never be peace as long as Zionist ethnic cleansing, injustice and oppression exists.

And Hamas believes there will be no peace as long as Judaism exists. To each their own.

Do you believe that if Hamas disappears and Palestinians remain oppressed and imprisoned that Israel will have peace, or is it more likely Hamas would be replaced by another resistance group and the violence would continue?

Palestine will never have peace until it admits to itself that it lost the war, and moves on.

As far as Hamas stubbornness is concerned, its a fact admitted by Israel that they held up their side of the ceasefire agreement until they were attacked by Israel on November 4, 2008. Other militant groups fired a few rockets and mortars at Israel during the ceasefire. Hamas reacted by arresting anyone who violated the ceasefire.

The agreement was not with Hamas, it was with Gaza. Hamas is an elected government and needs to act like one. No end to rocketfire (either purposefully or by an inability to control the territory) no opening of the blockade. That was the deal.

If Hamas expects Israel to sit back and let "the odd rocket through" then Hamas needs to sit back and "let the odd raid through".

 

[Risus]

Hamas has only been around for 20 years. The violence been constant in this area for much longer than 20 years. That would imply Hamas is an effect not a cause.

If you are looking for a cause you have to go back to when this area used to peaceful. That's only about 100 years ago.

This area became violent soon after the Zionists arrived in numbers. That was about 90 years ago. This area became seriously violent soon after WW II and by 1947, Zionists were openly cleansing Palestine of Palestinians to make way for Jewish state. Its been violent ever since.

Personally I believe there will never be peace as long as Zionist ethnic cleansing, injustice and oppression exists.

Do you believe that if Hamas disappears and Palestinians remain oppressed and imprisoned that Israel will have peace, or is it more likely Hamas would be replaced by another resistance group and the violence would continue?

As far as Hamas stubbornness is concerned, its a fact admitted by Israel that they held up their side of the ceasefire agreement until they were attacked by Israel on November 4, 2008. Other militant groups fired a few rockets and mortars at Israel during the ceasefire. Hamas reacted by arresting anyone who violated the ceasefire.

Risus: How are you able to maintain your viewpoint given its contradiction by the facts in the video and news item below?
YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008

You are using YouTube for your facts???? Give me a break.... Surely you can do better than that!

 

[lone wolf]

Uh huh. All technology is stolen then. Everything is built upon previous technological advances. Kindly show me anything new.

If you mean new designs based of existing designs and principles (as everything is) but different enough to pass copywrites lets say.

Israel is still making its own unique systems, because it has its own unique needs. Its main battle tanks are completely self designed, and best in the world at their state design aim, crew survivability. In terms of kill ratio (how many enemy they can knock out before being destroyed) they are mediocre, but in terms of crew survivability they are top notch.

Then we get into Israeli science in general, cutting edge stuff, the biocomputer was invented there. They are a first world nation. There is no doubt about that. They also have a sizeable brain trust.

Credit where credit is due, you may not like the government, but lets not pretend the region is stupid or is lacking in industry. The nation could be a massive arms exporter if all it wanted was cash.

Is Izzy blowing people up with biocomputers? Stick to the script. Copyright? On war materiels? What freakin' reality do you live? Read something, Zz. There's no need to look trollish in everything.

 

[Zzarchov]

No, thats BBC, just on youtube.

BBC is quite anti-Israeli. They have gotten pretty extreme to the point they have actually had legal complaints. They don't seem to like admitting that rocket strikes targetting civilians specifically are a crime for Hamas.

This is partly due to long held legal disputes between Israeli and BBC media. Some grudges last along time.

 

[Zzarchov]

Is Izzy blowing people up with biocomputers? Stick to the script. Copyright? On war materiels? What freakin' reality do you live? Read something, Zz. There's no need to look trollish in everything.

Ok, perhaps you can give us an example of a "new weapon" not built upon premade designs going back some 500 years in a series of incremental improvements? Some level of invetion in a modern nation which isn't also mirrored by Israel?

Name one, C'mon, cat got your tongue?

You love to spout nonsense then react like a dog pissing on an electric fence when you are called on it.

 

[lone wolf]

In the last 500 years? The bow and arrow, the airplane, the carbine rifle. Is this another smoke-screen?

Perhaps you could tell me why you and your kind run down Chinese knock-offs but Israel is magnificent for doing the same thing.... Try the cage instead of hijacking yet another thread to reveal you have no argument ... just a big mouth...

 

[Zzarchov]

In the last 500 years? The bow and arrow, the airplane, the carbine rifle. Is this another smoke-screen?

Perhaps you could tell me why you and your kind run down Chinese knock-offs but Israel is magnificent for doing the same thing.... Try the cage instead of hijacking yet another thread to reveal you have no argument ... just a big mouth...

Bow and arrow wasn't a new invention.

The airplane wasn't a big invention, it was adding to the designs of the internal combustion engine and gliders.

The Carbine Rifle, also just incremental improvements.

No different than Israeli designs.

As for China, China makes EXACT REPLICAS, Israel builds weapons of the same weapon type. Thompsons and Uzi's are both submachine guns, but they are not the same design, or even close.

Now China is changing from this, its ZTZ99 is a home built design. China is also building its own aircraft designs.

 

[lone wolf]

Bow and arrow wasn't a new invention.

The airplane wasn't a big invention, it was adding to the designs of the internal combustion engine and gliders.

The Carbine Rifle, also just incremental improvements.

No different than Israeli designs.

As for China, China makes EXACT REPLICAS, Israel builds weapons of the same weapon type. Thompsons and Uzi's are both submachine guns, but they are not the same design, or even close.

Now China is changing from this, its ZTZ99 is a home built design. China is also building its own aircraft designs.

Zzorch, I think you'd find a way to make fire and the wheel a step from something just so you could have your illusion of right. Funny how you never have any proof for your "truths" ... other than cheap shots and personal slander.

Uzi is a stamped steel version of the British MCEM-2. Nesher was the Israeli-built Mirage 5 from plans stolen from France. Be right, Zzorch. I know you need the rush.

Now ... if you insist on continuing your crybaby fit, please do it according to the rules ... in the CAGE. Hijacking is a TOS violation.

 

[Zzarchov]

Zzorch, I think you'd find a way to make fire and the wheel a step from something just so you could have your illusion of right. Funny how you never have any proof for your "truths" ... other than cheap shots and personal slander.

Uzi is a stamped steel version of the British MCEM-2. Nesher was the Israeli-built Mirage 5 from plans stolen from France. Be right, Zzorch. I know you need the rush.

Now ... if you insist on continuing your crybaby fit, please do it according to the rules ... in the CAGE. Hijacking is a TOS violation.

SO then when you highjacked the thread away from this topic to your personal vendetta of Israeli industrial inferiority?

If you want rigid adherance to the original topic, please stick to the original topic.

on your faulty assumption: The MCEM-2 was a step up on the Sten, which copied successful elements of the Mp-40. The Uzi copied the concept of Pistol grip and wrap around bolt from the experimental MCEM-2, thats it.

If you wish a cage match. Please continue this there then, as you wish to adhere to the rigid topic, and stop highjacking the thread then crying foul.

You should have created a seperate topic to discuss this originally if you don't think it belonged in the thread.

 

[lone wolf]

Call me paranoid, but this story below might explain people I've encountered here and elsewhere on the internet:

Personally I welcome these people and their opinions as long as they abide by the rules.

Found one!

 

[Just the Facts]

Zionist Israel is just as much a failure as White South Africa or Nazi Germany. As soon as people are awarded rights based on a classification, inevitably this inequality leads to further injustice, oppression, violence and revolution. If it wasn't for the billions in American support to prop up Israel, Egypt and Jordan, Israel would have collpased already. Over time the amount required to maintain the status quo increases exponentially. That's unsustainable over the longterm.

You should explain this to Hamas and their buddies. Why bother with all the rockets, just leave Israel alone and they'll collapse all by themselves.

Oh, btw, as an aside, the average per capita GDP in Arab countries is $3,700 versus $18,000 for Israel. This despite the fact that many Arab countries have the world's richest oil resources.

Maybe better go back to the rockets after all.

 

[Just the Facts]

If you "don't remember hearing any claims of threat directly towards the population of Israel", you haven't been listening very hard.

If by not listening very hard you mean stuffing your ears with cotton and waxing them shut while turning the volume on the stereo to full blast playing William Tell overture all the while holding your hands over your ears screaming at the top of your lungs " La La La La La La La" over and over and over again, then I agree. :lol:

 

[Just the Facts]

To me, it's Israel's unwillingness to use anything other then their military to solve their problems that is the root of most of the problems in the middle east.

No doubt you're referring to Israel using their military to force all the Jews out of Gaza.

Or maybe the use of the military in aiding civilians of towns within rocket range of Gaza to build bomb shelters and installing warning sirens in order to be able to live with constant bombardment. You know, those Israeli civilians who plan their lives around being no more than 15 seconds away from a bomb shelter.

The terrorist apologists cheering on Israel's death and destruction don't consider Israeli's to be human beings like the rest of us. In the eyes of terrorist apologists, Israeli's are lower than animals. Terrorist apologists would not approve of treating animals as cruelly as their terrorist heroes treat Israelis. Israeli civilians deserve to be bombed indefinitely. Nothing should be done to try and stop efforts to bomb them. They should just crawl into their shelters and stay there like good little Juden.

 

[Just the Facts]

just like Israel's actions are somehow Gaza's fault.

:lol: lol somehow? Seven THOUSAND rockets in three years since Israel vacated Gaza. But it's, <shrug>, I dunno, SOMEHOW. lol

Not to mention, the apologists tend to some how justify the direct attacks on civilians in Gaza by Israel, by the actions of Hamas.

Wrong. As was explained a week or so ago by Colpy, it's absolutely AMAZING how FEW civilians were killed. This can only be explained by Israel taking great effort to avoid civilian casualties. If it were a direct attack on civilians the civilian death toll would have been orders of magnitude higher than it was. Therefore there is no need to justify direct on attacks on civilians because it didn't happen.

Now, lets talk about those seven thousand rockets, which were, incontrovertibly, direct attacks on civilians.

Or would you rather not.

I thought so.

 

[Just the Facts]

Risus: How are you able to maintain your viewpoint given its contradiction by the facts in the video and news item below?

120 rockets in Nov and Dec. Isn't that a disproportionate response to little border skirmish?

 

[Praxius]

No doubt you're referring to Israel using their military to force all the Jews out of Gaza.

Or maybe the use of the military in aiding civilians of towns within rocket range of Gaza to build bomb shelters and installing warning sirens in order to be able to live with constant bombardment. You know, those Israeli civilians who plan their lives around being no more than 15 seconds away from a bomb shelter.

The terrorist apologists cheering on Israel's death and destruction don't consider Israeli's to be human beings like the rest of us. In the eyes of terrorist apologists, Israeli's are lower than animals. Terrorist apologists would not approve of treating animals as cruelly as their terrorist heroes treat Israelis. Israeli civilians deserve to be bombed indefinitely. Nothing should be done to try and stop efforts to bomb them. They should just crawl into their shelters and stay there like good little Juden.

Clearly your entire post expresses that you didn't read a thing I've said in this thread so far, as I never said Israelis are lower then animals, nor did I say they should be bombed infefinitely, or many of the other things you've said above.

I have an issue with their government and how they approach this problem..... and if you want further details on that..... go back to the top and re-read again.

 

[Just the Facts]

Clearly your entire post expresses that you didn't read a thing I've said in this thread so far, as I never said Israelis are lower then animals, nor did I say they should be bombed infefinitely, or many of the other things you've said above.

I never said you said any of those things.

 

[Praxius]

:lol: lol somehow? Seven THOUSAND rockets in three years since Israel vacated Gaza. But it's, <shrug>, I dunno, SOMEHOW. lol

Once again, going back to what I already said about who started what and when.... at this stage, considering the entire history over there, who started what is irrelevant at this point.

Not to mention my comment was relating to the comparisons to the current situation, not the entire situation where you tally up an imaginary number that can not be confirmed with 100% accuracy, since most of the rocket reports claim no injuries and no damage.

If there was no damage and no casualties..... where the hell are these rockets landing? In the Ocean?

Hardly, if they're pointed at Israel and you can see Israel and the rockets are fired at Israel, you'd think most of them would hit something..... perhaps a road, or some ice box out in front of a hotel, or something..... but they mysteriously hit some black hole where they hit nothing, they have no photos or video..... nothing.

But I guess we take them for their word afterall.... Israeli officals would never lie would they? :roll:

Wrong. As was explained a week or so ago by Colpy, it's absolutely AMAZING how FEW civilians were killed.

Are you fk'n kidding me? how few?

Well then I guess when you specifically target universities, UN compounds, schools, hospitals and the such, I suppose you're right that it's amazing how so few civilians were killed :roll:

This can only be explained by Israel taking great effort to avoid civilian casualties.

By deliberatly targeting civilian compounds?

By using white phosphorous weapons in highly populated areas?

By Israeli officials telling Gaza civilians to stay inside a paticular compound because they will be attacking soon, then they shell the hell out of the building they told them to stay in?

Yeah.... that's some great effort on their part. :roll:x3

If it were a direct attack on civilians the civilian death toll would have been orders of magnitude higher than it was. Therefore there is no need to justify direct on attacks on civilians because it didn't happen.

You need to get better informed..... it did happen and it will happen again.

Now, lets talk about those seven thousand rockets, which were, incontrovertibly, direct attacks on civilians.

Or would you rather not.

I thought so.

See my previous post.

I thought so too.... thanks for playing.

 

[darkbeaver]

Excellent Idea! Arm the Palestinians of West Bank and Gaza to the teeth! Send them against Israel in waves, all anxious for martyrdom and their 72 virgins!

Best way I can think of to de-populate the West Bank and Gaza........for Jewish settlement and annexation into Israel proper.......

I didn't realize you were a "Black Flag" operative............

The Lizard Hierarchy of the Israelis has already scattered DU into the wind to poison thier own stupid civilians Colpy, they don't care about thier own lesser bretheren, ultimately the ordinary Israeli is expendable. They must be dumb to believe they can work the con forever and survive intact. Maybe god chose them because they were dumb.

 

[earth_as_one]

You are using YouTube for your facts???? Give me a break.... Surely you can do better than that!

How much better can I do than post a video of an Israeli government representative admitting in a BBC documentary video that Hamas had not violated the ceasefire agreement until after it was broken by Israel on November 4, 2008?

YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008

What exactly do you require before you accept this fact?

Its also a fact that Hamas threatened to arrest anyone violating the ceasefire and on July 10, 2008, Hamas arrested militants caught firing rockets at Israel.


Is this enough references for you?

Hamas arrests militants after rocket fire | Reuters

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hamas arrests Gaza rocket squad

Hamas arrests Gaza rocket squad after two Qassams hit Negev - Haaretz - Israel News

Its unreasonable to demand that Hamas absolutely prevent criminals from committing crimes before they happen. They took precautions and warned people to respect the ceasefire. When a few people broke the law they arrested them. Seems to me that's yet another example of Hamas holding up their end of the truce, not an example of Hamas violating the truce.

The chart below shows that Israel continued blocking international humanitarian food and medical aid from entering Gaza in violation of their ceasefire agreement with Hamas and international law:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Guide: Gaza under blockade

Given that Israel's first target in the recent bombing campaign were the Gaza police, I'd say one of Israel's top priorities is to undermine Hamas's ability to prevent and deter crime such as rogue militants firing rockets and mortars at Israel.

Deliberately attacking civilians is a war crime. Both Israeli and International law define police officers as civilians.

A legal analysis of Israeli Law:

...The very first day of the Israeli campaign, the air force bombed a police academy at a mid-day graduation ceremony, killing dozens. What makes policemen a legitimate target? Here, I want to focus not just on the law of war, but on Israel's own interpretation of it, in the Israeli Supreme Court's 2006 decision on targeted killings (Public Committee Against Torture v. Israeli Gov't). The Israeli Supreme Court approved some targeted killings, but outlawed others, on precisely the ground that civilians can't be targeted unless they participate in hostilities....

...Plainly, the Hamas policement were not using weapons or gathering intelligence. They were getting their diplomas. Were they preparing for hostilities? Not unless they were preparing to launch rockets at Israel--and there is no reason to think they were. For better or for worse, like it or not, Hamas is administering Gaza, and the police are the police. Matters would be different if Israel can show that Hamas police are really militants who fire off rockets at Israel--but as far as I can determine, Israel hasn't suggested that they are. These policemen were civilians who under Israeli law of war were not taking part in hostilities....

...it seems pretty clear that Gazan policemen, even if they are enthusiastic Hamas members who completely back the militants, fall on the "indirect" support side of the line, not the "direct" side. And that makes them--under Israeli law--protected civilians who cannot be targeted...

Is the Gaza War Legal?

A legal analysis of international law:

...Under international humanitarian law, police are presumed to be civilian - and thus immune from attack - unless formally incorporated into the armed forces of a party to a conflict or directly participating in the hostilities. Thus, police only engaged in ordinary police roles, such as regulating traffic or ordinary law enforcement, would not be subject to lawful attack, while those who are Hamas fighters can be targeted. Police who engage in both ordinary law enforcement and at times in fighting would, like other civilians, be subject to attack whenever and for such time as they were actively participating in the hostilities....

Q & A on Hostilities between Israel and Hamas | Human Rights Watch

Israel never respected their truce agreement with Hamas. In fact their blockade of humanitarian food and medical aid was more than just a ceasefire violation, it was also a crime.

Hamas respected their ceasefire obligations despite Israel's cruel food and medical aid blockade until after Israel began killing members of Hamas on November 4, 2008. That is when the ceasefire broke down, not December 27th, 2008.

Before Israel's bombing campaign on December 27, 2008, Hamas ofered to return to the original ceasefire agreement, but was rejected by Israel.

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer In December

Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza....

...On Nov. 4 -- just when the ceasefire was most effective -- the IDF carried out an attack against a house in Gaza in which six members of Hamas's military wing were killed, including two commanders, and several more were wounded. The IDF explanation for the operation was that it had received intelligence that a tunnel was being dug near the Israeli security fence for the purpose of abducing Israeli soldiers.

Hamas officials asserted, however, that the tunnel was being dug for defensive purposes, not to capture IDF personnel, according to Pastor, and one IDF official confirmed that fact to him.

After that Israeli attack, the ceasefire completely fell apart, as Hamas began openly firing rockets into Israel, the IDF continued to carry out military operations inside Gaza, and the border crossings were "closed most of the time", according to the ITIC account.

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer In December

From the beginning of the ceasefire back in June 19, 2008 until Israel killed hundreds of Gazans on December 27, 2008, not a single Israeli had been killed by a rocket or a mortar fired from Gaza. The latest round of fighting was deliberately provoked by Israel and Israel's action indicate they are more interested in committing war crimes and crimes against humanity than peace. Hamas's actions demonstrate they want peace, but will be attacked and starved by Israel regardless of whether they repect truces or respond to Israeli provocations.

>>>>

Judging from the comments posted above, I don't expect intelligent debate in response. What I see above are deliberate attempts by Israeli apologists and propagandists to divert attention and obfuscate facts. They've made ridiculous claims and fail to back them up with any references.

This post is about making clearing up the deliberate diversions and obfuscations.

Thank you Praxius and Lone Wolf for your tenacity in standing up to these people.

Obviously you both know what we are dealing with here.