Israel threatens 'disproportionate' response to Hamas rocket fire

[lone wolf]

Well, I'm not so sure about that..........Arab armies have proven extremely ineffective against Israel.

No, I don't think the Jews are a Master Race....I think they have developed extremely good weapons (they improve American-supplied hardware, and won't even let the US in on their secrets), a military culture of extremely experienced and well-trained citizen soldiers that are fighting for the very existence of their nation and their people...........and they do so in ways unusual in other militaries.....for example, IDF officers are more likely to be casualties than their soldiers, because they are trained and expected to lead.......to be first up.

The Arab nations are armed to the teeth, they do outnumber the Israelis by a large factor, they have repeatedly tried to destroy Israel........but the Israelis kick their ass every time. It has been close, especially in 1973, but the Israeli sysyem perseveres.......

You're drooling again.... Are you really allowed to do that on the blue-on-white rag?

Developed? Try stolen technology. Anyone with a library of back-dated Mechanix Illustrated can make improvements on something that already exists. The best improvement would be a reverse gear....

 

[earth_as_one]

Zionist Israel is just as much a failure as White South Africa or Nazi Germany. As soon as people are awarded rights based on a classification, inevitably this inequality leads to further injustice, oppression, violence and revolution. If it wasn't for the billions in American support to prop up Israel, Egypt and Jordan, Israel would have collpased already. Over time the amount required to maintain the status quo increases exponentially. That's unsustainable over the longterm.

Even if the West Bank and Gaza disappeared, that still wouldn't end the problem. Israeli Jews would turn on Israeli Arabs. Get rid of the Israeli Arabs and that still wouldn't end the problem. Then one group of Jews would oppress the other Jews based on their level of Jewishness. Eventually it would become clan warfare between extended families.

The root cause of the violence is a system of governance that treats people unequally based on a system of classification. Treat all people equally, eliminate oppression and injustice and inevitably the violence ends.

 

[Spade]

Yep.

All whom live peacefully and safely in Great Britain........now, go to Israel.

Combatant Letter 2002

 

[earth_as_one]

Israel is about to bomb Gaza and once again blood will flow in the streets of Gaza.

Israeli's leaders are about to face elections and they have to prove to the Israeli voters they are as cruel and inhumane as their political opponents if they are to have any hope at winning.

Israel's actions aren't about peaceful coexistance. Israel had peaceful coexistance with Hamas from June 19 until November 4, 2008. During this time, Hamas never attacked Israel and had eliminated 99% of the rockets and mortars fired from Gaza at Israel. Hamas even arrested those who attacked Israel. Hamas could not have been more compliant to the tems fo the ceasefire. In response Israel blocked 80% of humanitarian food and medical aid from reaching Gaza in violation of the truce and international law. Israel's illegal actions were and are fully supported by the Canadian government and the Liberal opposition.

Israel never wanted that ceasefire in the first place. They were embarassed into it by the Carter foundation. From the beginning they kept provoking Hamas and Gazans by shutting down their borders and making them starve in the hope they would respond in a way that justify renewing their atrocities against the people of Gaza.

Eventually Israel's leaders realized they would have to blatantly violate their ceasefire with Hamas in order to provoke the desired response. On November 4, 2008 while the world was watching the US elections, Israel sent commandos into Gaza to kill Gazans.

Sure enough that violent incident provoked the desired response which Israel used to escalate the violence to the point where they were again killing innocent men, women and children enmasse. Just in time for Israeli elections.

Israel knows they can't bomb, starve, oppress and imprisoned people into peaceful coexistance. That approach only makes people more determined to fight for freedom and justice. Israel's actions only put Gazans in a situation where they have nothing to loose.

Lets be honest here. The Israeli apologists cheering on Israel's death and destruction don't consider Gazans to be human beings like Israelis or the rest of us. In the eyes of Israeli apologists, Gazans are lower than animals. Israeli apologists would not approve of treating animals as cruelly as their government treats Palestinians.

Obviously 1.5 million Gazans aren't human beings like the rest of us. These men, women and children are all dehumanized terrorists. You can do all kinds of things to terrorists that you can't do to human beings. You can bomb, starve, oppress and imprison terrorists. Even baby ones.

 

[earth_as_one]

Combatant Letter 2002

These Israeli soldiers obviously recognize unnecessary human suffering when they see it. Its brave, courageous and righteous to refuse orders which are war crimes. Saying "I was just following orders" doesn't absolve responsibility.

Denying Palestinians basic human rights does not make Israel safer as these Israelis are aware:

YouTube - Israeli Objectors of Occupation,Americans aren't supposed to know this, THE REST OF THE STORY

Jewish Voice for Peace

Tell Israel: Free the Shministim!

 

[Praxius]

Hamas will never care about Israeli civilians

Tit for Tat.... regardless who started this whole mess, if Israel doesn't give a crap about the civilians in Gaza in order to win some kind of support for being compassionate and are willing to kill hundreds to over a thousand civilians, why the hell would Hamas care about the one or two civilians they may end up killing over a couple of years?

perhaps when Palastinians realize Hamas offers nothing but terror they will vote for moderates who recognize the state of Israel and embrace peace.

^ It's very much the same as how so many supported Bush in the US. Those in the US allowed Bush to carry out many of the things we've all been fighting over in the last 8 years.... but he offered them fake protection in troubled times, so people back him (Or so the rigged elections claim)

Hamas offers them some form of protection, although it's usually never much protection considering who they're up against, they understand their problems and their suffering. When you're put in a desperate situation where everybody is starved from medical supplies, food and other basic needs, people tend to turn to those who offer some kind of help, even when they're only going to end up possibly making things worse.

Israel's actions of continually trying to make the civilian population suffer is only giving Hamas further support, not just by those in Gaza, but now many from around the world.

In simple terms, Israel is contributing a great deal to the problems Israel keeps complaining about and until they grow the hell up and act responsibly about the situation, nothing will change. Their current tactics have already been proven to cause Israel a lot less support from around the world and from many within their own nation.... This mission they claimed was made to stop rocket attacks hasn't, and they are going to have to learn that military force is not the solution to everything.

Of course with a nation such as Israel where military service is required for all citizens, it's probably hard to teach them this simple concept.

 

[Praxius]

So how many Jews practice their religion openly in Gaza and how many Palastinians practice Islam within Israel?

Worms like you are no better than those who stand behind Israel no matter what, interesting, I've been called both an anti-Semite and an anti-Muslim on this site because I dare to be objective.

That's why this nonsense will never end, no one is ever wrong.

Shame isn't it.

I've been in the same positions as you are now and I tried to stay on the fence and view this situation unbias.... I was even siding with Israel for the most part, however, Israel in the last couple of military campaigns have shown their true colors by the weapons and tactics they have been using and who they target..... based on their most recent actions, Israel has done much worse then the "Terrorists" they are fighting..... therefore I can not stay unbiased on this situation any longer and is why I feel Israel is in the wrong.

But you are right.... this nonsense will never end, because nobody is ever wrong in this situation. And until both sides get a clue and reach some level of understanding, this will never end until one side is wiped out.

This is also why I supported the president of Irans' comments about the current government in Israel and that it needs to be removed and replaced with a government more willing to work on diplomacy, rather then speaking from the barrels of their guns all the damn time.

To me, it's Israel's unwillingness to use anything other then their military to solve their problems that is the root of most of the problems in the middle east.

 

[Praxius]

Palestinians should surrender in exchange for Israeli citizenship.

Oh yeah, I see that happening. :roll:

 

[Praxius]

Idealistically, yes. Annex the territories, give everyone full rights of citizenship, Peace Love and Groovy will live ever after.

But unfortunately,
If Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza were allowed Israeli citizenship.....there would be no Israel.

There would only be another Arab, Islamic Looney state, the smart Jews would flee immediately, the others would wind up in the ovens.

that is the reality of it.

No, that's the baseless fearmongering of it.

I don't follow Islam, but even I find your "Islamic Looney State" comment offensive and it's the mentality like that that doesn't help things.

And all of your speculations on all the Jews being thrown into ovens is just as bad as those who compared anybody else to Nazi Germany.

People complained about the US comparisons, the Israeli comparisons..... oh, but it's alright to do it to any muslim nation.... they're different afterall and not like us :roll:

This has already been debated over and over again on what was said in translations, and when you look at all the details, most of the conversations have been directed towards' Israel's government..... I don't remember hearing any claims of threat directly towards the population of Israel.

So to claim those in Gaza and Iran want to genocide those in Israel is more baseless then the claims against Israel's well known and documented actions against Gaza and their (Israel's) neighbors and their civilians.

Your perspective seems flawed to me, then again, maybe I just don't understand the whole picture you're supporting.

 

[Risus]

Hamas showed their stupidity/stubbournness by firing these rockets into Israel. and they deserve whatever Israel has for them.

Personally I believe there will never be peace as long as the hamas exists.

 

[lone wolf]

Hamas showed their stupidity/stubbournness by firing these rockets into Israel. and they deserve whatever Israel has for them.

Personally I believe there will never be peace as long as the hamas exists.

Hamas deserves it ... NOT folks who just want to get on with whatever sort of a life there is living between two belligerents.

 

[Praxius]

Developed? Try stolen technology. Anyone with a library of back-dated Mechanix Illustrated can make improvements on something that already exists. The best improvement would be a reverse gear....

Sound like the history of the Ferengi :lol:

 

[Praxius]

Zionist Israel is just as much a failure as White South Africa or Nazi Germany. As soon as people are awarded rights based on a classification, inevitably this inequality leads to further injustice, oppression, violence and revolution. If it wasn't for the billions in American support to prop up Israel, Egypt and Jordan, Israel would have collpased already. Over time the amount required to maintain the status quo increases exponentially. That's unsustainable over the longterm.

Even if the West Bank and Gaza disappeared, that still wouldn't end the problem. Israeli Jews would turn on Israeli Arabs. Get rid of the Israeli Arabs and that still wouldn't end the problem. Then one group of Jews would oppress the other Jews based on their level of Jewishness. Eventually it would become clan warfare between extended families.

The root cause of the violence is a system of governance that treats people unequally based on a system of classification. Treat all people equally, eliminate oppression and injustice and inevitably the violence ends.

Seems so simple doesn't it? :-?

 

[Praxius]

Israel is about to bomb Gaza and once again blood will flow in the streets of Gaza.

Israeli's leaders are about to face elections and they have to prove to the Israeli voters they are as cruel and inhumane as their political opponents if they are to have any hope at winning.

Israel's actions aren't about peaceful coexistance. Israel had peaceful coexistance with Hamas from June 19 until November 4, 2008. During this time, Hamas never attacked Israel and had eliminated 99% of the rockets and mortars fired from Gaza at Israel. Hamas even arrested those who attacked Israel. Hamas could not have been more compliant to the tems fo the ceasefire. In response Israel blocked 80% of humanitarian food and medical aid from reaching Gaza in violation of the truce and international law. Israel's illegal actions were and are fully supported by the Canadian government and the Liberal opposition.

Quite true. This, along with how the Liberals are backing this budget, shows how little of a spine they really have..... if they question anything Israel does, it's anti-semetic, and they don't want to risk a loss of any votes..... although their own spineless ways will do this regardless, all the while they continue to support their gradual genocide of Gaza.

Israel never wanted that ceasefire in the first place. They were embarassed into it by the Carter foundation. From the beginning they kept provoking Hamas and Gazans by shutting down their borders and making them starve in the hope they would respond in a way that justify renewing their atrocities against the people of Gaza.

Also true.

Eventually Israel's leaders realized they would have to blatantly violate their ceasefire with Hamas in order to provoke the desired response. On November 4, 2008 while the world was watching the US elections, Israel sent commandos into Gaza to kill Gazans.

Sorta like how Georgia pulled their little stunt a few months ago..... and somehow their actions became Russia's fault, just like Israel's actions are somehow Gaza's fault.

Sure enough that violent incident provoked the desired response which Israel used to escalate the violence to the point where they were again killing innocent men, women and children enmasse. Just in time for Israeli elections.

Israel knows they can't bomb, starve, oppress and imprisoned people into peaceful coexistance. That approach only makes people more determined to fight for freedom and justice. Israel's actions only put Gazans in a situation where they have nothing to loose.

Pretty much what I have been saying.

Lets be honest here. The Israeli apologists cheering on Israel's death and destruction don't consider Gazans to be human beings like Israelis or the rest of us. In the eyes of Israeli apologists, Gazans are lower than animals. Israeli apologists would not approve of treating animals as cruelly as their government treats Palestinians.

Not to mention, the apologists tend to some how justify the direct attacks on civilians in Gaza by Israel, by the actions of Hamas.

Obviously 1.5 million Gazans aren't human beings like the rest of us. These men, women and children are all dehumanized terrorists. You can do all kinds of things to terrorists that you can't do to human beings. You can bomb, starve, oppress and imprison terrorists. Even baby ones.

It would seem that way

 

[Praxius]

Hamas showed their stupidity/stubbournness by firing these rockets into Israel. and they deserve whatever Israel has for them.

Personally I believe there will never be peace as long as the hamas exists.

So you keep getting betrayed, your truces broken by the other side, your civilians starved and killed off, framed for starting something you never did..... and you expect to just lie down and take it?

I'd be firing rockets too..... and if I was too poor to fire rockets, I'd be flinging cans of sh*t if I had to..... but I sure as hell wouldn't lie down and take it.

Oh and when the rest of the world seems to not give a crap about how many are suffering and dying, leaving you guys isolated and alone to be continually oppressed and killed off slowly.... eventually you have to take matters into your own hands by whatever means nessicary....... and when you're in dire situations such as they are.... it's very easy to be labeled "Terrorists" since those tactics are all you have left to defend yourself with.

 

[Colpy]

No, that's the baseless fearmongering of it.

I don't follow Islam, but even I find your "Islamic Looney State" comment offensive and it's the mentality like that that doesn't help things.

And all of your speculations on all the Jews being thrown into ovens is just as bad as those who compared anybody else to Nazi Germany.

People complained about the US comparisons, the Israeli comparisons..... oh, but it's alright to do it to any muslim nation.... they're different afterall and not like us :roll:

This has already been debated over and over again on what was said in translations, and when you look at all the details, most of the conversations have been directed towards' Israel's government..... I don't remember hearing any claims of threat directly towards the population of Israel.

So to claim those in Gaza and Iran want to genocide those in Israel is more baseless then the claims against Israel's well known and documented actions against Gaza and their (Israel's) neighbors and their civilians.

Your perspective seems flawed to me, then again, maybe I just don't understand the whole picture you're supporting.

Is not Hamas dedicated to the total destruction of Israel, and the murder of Jews?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html

Just one, do a search of Hamas on Jews....it gets very clear, something very like Mein Kampf

To say nothing of that OTHER proxy of Iran, Hezbollah..........the leader once said he hoped all Jews emigrated to Israel so he could kill them all in one place........Hezbollah bombed a Jewish centre in Buenos Aires, fer God's sake killing dozens! What more evidence do you need?

If you "don't remember hearing any claims of threat directly towards the population of Israel", you haven't been listening very hard.

If THAT doesn't convince you, google the 2002 Durban Conference........it very much resembles a Nuremburg Rally in 1938, sans the SS, but complete with posters of hook-nosed Jews dripping blood from their mouths.......

Or perhaps a quick look at the last 1000 years of Jewish history..........

 

[Colpy]

So you keep getting betrayed, your truces broken by the other side, your civilians starved and killed off, framed for starting something you never did..... and you expect to just lie down and take it?

I'd be firing rockets too..... and if I was too poor to fire rockets, I'd be flinging cans of sh*t if I had to..... but I sure as hell wouldn't lie down and take it.

Oh and when the rest of the world seems to not give a crap about how many are suffering and dying, leaving you guys isolated and alone to be continually oppressed and killed off slowly.... eventually you have to take matters into your own hands by whatever means nessicary....... and when you're in dire situations such as they are.... it's very easy to be labeled "Terrorists" since those tactics are all you have left to defend yourself with.

This last one was not a truce, it was a unilateral ceasefire.....all Hamas had to do was stop shooting and bombing, but.......Hamas has repeatedly refused a long-term truce promoted by the Egyptians and others because it would prevent them from carrying on their war against Israel....from their own mouths.

I believe it when the Israelis say they prevented an infiltration of their borders on Nov 4........there is no gain to Israel fighting in Gaza, no territory to be won, no reason to incite the Palestinians and the world over Gaza......they did not invent a conflict, why would they??????? They have nothing to win.......

 

[earth_as_one]

Hamas showed their stupidity/stubbournness by firing these rockets into Israel. and they deserve whatever Israel has for them.

Personally I believe there will never be peace as long as the hamas exists.

Hamas has only been around for 20 years. The violence been constant in this area for much longer than 20 years. That would imply Hamas is an effect not a cause.

If you are looking for a cause you have to go back to when this area used to peaceful. That's only about 100 years ago.

This area became violent soon after the Zionists arrived in numbers. That was about 90 years ago. This area became seriously violent soon after WW II and by 1947, Zionists were openly cleansing Palestine of Palestinians to make way for Jewish state. Its been violent ever since.

Personally I believe there will never be peace as long as Zionist ethnic cleansing, injustice and oppression exists.

Do you believe that if Hamas disappears and Palestinians remain oppressed and imprisoned that Israel will have peace, or is it more likely Hamas would be replaced by another resistance group and the violence would continue?

As far as Hamas stubbornness is concerned, its a fact admitted by Israel that they held up their side of the ceasefire agreement until they were attacked by Israel on November 4, 2008. Other militant groups fired a few rockets and mortars at Israel during the ceasefire. Hamas reacted by arresting anyone who violated the ceasefire.

Risus: How are you able to maintain your viewpoint given its contradiction by the facts in the video and news item below?
YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008

GAZA, July 10 (Reuters) - Hamas arrested seven Palestinians who fired rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, a militant faction said, in the first such detentions since the Islamist group and Israel agreed a truce last month.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a group linked to President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah group, said Hamas men pursued three of its its members after the attack and "abducted them" in Jabalya refugee camp.

No one was hurt in the strike with two rockets on southern Israel.

Four more men were arrested as they tried to fire rockets at Israel after darkness fell, an al-Aqsa official said.

Reuters AlertNet - Hamas arrests first rocket squads since truce

 

[earth_as_one]

This last one was not a truce, it was a unilateral ceasefire.....all Hamas had to do was stop shooting and bombing, but.......Hamas has repeatedly refused a long-term truce promoted by the Egyptians and others because it would prevent them from carrying on their war against Israel....from their own mouths.

I believe it when the Israelis say they prevented an infiltration of their borders on Nov 4........there is no gain to Israel fighting in Gaza, no territory to be won, no reason to incite the Palestinians and the world over Gaza......they did not invent a conflict, why would they??????? They have nothing to win.......

Colpy you are mistaken. Hamas has repeatedly offered longterm truces. Israel is not responsible for initating any truce with Palestinians in recent memory. Every truce Israel has agreed to in recent years was a result of outside pressure.

Three years ago

January 29, 2006

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- A leader of Hamas, the militant group that last week became the controlling force in Palestinian politics, laid out a series of conditions Sunday that he said could lead to years of co-existence alongside Israel.

The conditions included Israel's retreating to its pre-1967 borders and releasing Palestinian prisoners....

Mahmoud al-Zahar, the top Hamas official in Gaza, told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" that a "long-term hudna or long-term truce" is possible. He would not commit to negotiating with Israel and would not say whether recognizing Israel's existence is a long-term possibility....

CNN.com - Hamas leader sets conditions for truce - Jan 29, 2006

The above offer was rejected outright by Israel. Then Hamas offered this peace plan:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]November 4, 2006 by CommonDreams.org [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Ira Chernus[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you want to understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a nutshell, just look at the New York Times editorial pages of November 1, 2006. Amazingly enough, the Times ran a full op-ed column by a top official of the Hamas party, Ahmed Yousef, a senior adviser to Palestinian prime minister Ismail Haniyeh. Yousef repeated the same offer Hamas has been making for years. In Arabic it's called a "hudna." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As Yousef explained, a hudna is "a period of nonwar but only partial resolution of a conflict." It "extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences." A hudna "affords the opportunity to humanize one's opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"This offer of hudna is no ruse, as some assert, to strengthen our military machine," Yousef pleaded. And he offered several reasons to believe it: "A hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. . It goes back to the Koran itself. . When Hamas gives its word to an international agreement, it does so in the name of God and will therefore keep its word. Hamas has honored its previous cease-fires, as Israelis grudgingly note with the oft-heard words, 'At least with Hamas they mean what they say.'"[/FONT]

Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored

Today's news, yet another longterm ceasefire apparently rejected by Israel. Instead Israel has chosen to respond to truce proposals with disproportionate violence:

Hamas to meet Egypt mediators on truce with Israel
By OMAR SINAN – 7 hours ago

CAIRO (AP) — A Hamas delegation will hold what a spokesman called Monday a final round of talks with Egyptian mediators aimed at reaching a long-term cease-fire with Israel.

The militant group, which wants a one-year cease-fire in Gaza, says it will base its final decision on the talks in Cairo, which will take place Monday or Tuesday, senior Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said.

Egypt, a key mediator between Israel and Hamas, is hoping to forge a truce by Thursday. Israel wants a complete halt to Palestinian militant rocket fire that set off its punishing 22-day offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers, as well as a halt to weapons smuggling.

Hamas' top demand is the lifting of a crippling blockade on the crowded, impoverished Gaza Strip, including the opening of its borders with Israel and Egypt to allow in desperately needed aid. The crossings have remained sealed to all but a trickle of supplies since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007 from its rivals in another Palestinian group....

The Associated Press: Hamas to meet Egypt mediators on truce with Israel

The facts do not support your viewpoint that Israel is interested in peace or that their November 4, 2008 raid was justified:

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer In December

WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull, according to the source. They asked Suleiman, who had served as mediator between Israel and Hamas in negotiating the original six-month Gaza ceasefire last spring, to "put pressure" on Israel to take that the ceasefire proposal seriously.

Suleiman said he could not pressure Israel but could only make the suggestion to Israeli officials. It could not be learned, however, whether Israel explicitly rejected the Hamas proposal or simply refused to respond to Egypt.

The readiness of Hamas to return to the ceasefire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Centre, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the ceasefire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza"....

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer In December

If Israel wanted a return to the ceasefire all they had to do was stop blockading international humanitarian food and medicine relief from reaching 1.5 million sick and starving Gazans, and stop killing Gazans. In other words stick to their original agreement with Hamas. Aparently that was too much to ask of Israel.

Given how frequently Israel misleads and lies, how can any intelligent person take what they say without supporting evidence? Where is your proof that these tunnels were not defensive fortifications?

 

[Zzarchov]

You're drooling again.... Are you really allowed to do that on the blue-on-white rag?

Developed? Try stolen technology. Anyone with a library of back-dated Mechanix Illustrated can make improvements on something that already exists. The best improvement would be a reverse gear....

Uh huh. All technology is stolen then. Everything is built upon previous technological advances. Kindly show me anything new.

If you mean new designs based of existing designs and principles (as everything is) but different enough to pass copywrites lets say.

Israel is still making its own unique systems, because it has its own unique needs. Its main battle tanks are completely self designed, and best in the world at their state design aim, crew survivability. In terms of kill ratio (how many enemy they can knock out before being destroyed) they are mediocre, but in terms of crew survivability they are top notch.

Then we get into Israeli science in general, cutting edge stuff, the biocomputer was invented there. They are a first world nation. There is no doubt about that. They also have a sizeable brain trust.

Credit where credit is due, you may not like the government, but lets not pretend the region is stupid or is lacking in industry. The nation could be a massive arms exporter if all it wanted was cash.