scared1010 said:
I just read a reply from SHIVA.
I am so horrified at what she has wrote. For her to say that welfare is the answer for everything really proves she does not know what she's talking about.
Where did I say welfare is the answer for everything? (it's not, but apparently prostitution is!) If you really have an argument, you want have to put words in my mouth or characterize my posts as something they're not, to make it. :roll:
scared1010 said:
First off welfare is poverty! They don't give individauls let alone families enough to pay the rent. I don't know how happy you would feel balancing a budget that requires 1200 a month when you are only given 800 from social assistance. Oh yeh and having to go with your kids to food banks to get food.
I'd rather do that, and also sign up for some of the free gov't services to get job skills, than sell my body. And it's a completely valid alternative that will help you get skills outside of selling your body, whereas working as a prostitute doesn't get you any other 'skills' that will get you back out there in the mainstream of the workforce.
scared1010 said:
As for the nice free education your talking about that is free to all the poor. Who gave you that info? The welfare will only give up to $5000 for an education. I'm not sure what education one could get with that but it may pay one dollar more then the high min wage that anyone would get other wise. And not to mention that you have to cry and holler just so they will give you that one time free education is so fun. if you even are so lucky to get it. its only a one time thing not a yearly 5000.
Well, as someone going through an education at the University of Toronto, I can tell you that an undergraduate degree at UofT doesn't cost much more than $5000 (about $5200). Keep in mind, this is one of the most expensive (public) universities in the country (there are many other fine institutions where the cost is less). In addition to being able to get that money from welfare, you could also apply for OSAP (which will give you a loan not only to help pay for your tuition, but also transportation costs, and housing costs). In addition to OSAP, you could apply for bursaries (free money) given out by the university to help cover costs of books or any other demonstrable needs. Such grants are regularly given out to the poor.
scared1010 said:
Oh yeh why dont we start talking about the little essentials us parents needs to take care of a child like one examole is medicine. Oh yeh they give welfare recipients a drug plan card. Sure they do but as with any drug plan only certain medications are allowed some are not even offered but may be needed. Whose paying for that? No one so someone on welfare has to remain sick , uncured, or maybe even die becasue they can ot get the medications needed.
Oh please. :roll: All kinds of plans- public and private- do not cover many drugs that we may wish to purchase. If you ever tried getting into university, you might know that most universities also include a basic dental and medical plan as a part of their tuition, and perhaps
that could supplement a welfare plan until you get into the workforce. Alternatives abound for those willing to do a little work.
scared1010 said:
Lets say your child gets sick in the midle of the night you have budgeted your whole welfare cheque and tylonal was not on your list of expenses what happens then? Or yeh you go to your family, your friends, your neighbours. But what if you dont have family or friends? Even if you do,how long will they be able to support you in times of troubles? And the situation remains...your child is sick...What do you do?
If you're on welfare and your child is sick and you have a drug card, you get your doctor to prescribe the tylenol for you and you get it for free. Or you can get the (free) doctor to prescribe tempra instead which does the same thing as tylenol, and works wonders on children who are a little older than toddlers or infants.
scared1010 said:
It is easy for people like you to sit there and make comments like that because you never had to live off any assisstance no doubt or you undoubtably live in a fantasy world.
You don't know me. How the hell do you know I was never on assistance, eh? What, just because I argue against prostitution, therefore I've never had a hard time in life? Get real. The fact that you need to make a personal attack at me just goes to show that there is no substance to your argument.
If your argument had substance, you could argue the points I raised instead without getting personal. But you have no argument.
scared1010 said:
Welfare in Canada and in the US is not giving their people anything they need to get on there feet and be respectable citizens in society. First, if needed provide the educationg for free to those with no to little income. A fundage more then 5000 that will insure a solid education. And provide full coverage of a course of choice by the person. Provide courses that will enable the person to make honest goals for their lives not programs that are set up to teach people to fill out resumes. Allow the individual to work out his or her own life plan to better his or her situation and make them accountable for what progresses they are continuing to make while under the care of the welfare. Provide monies with a resonsible budget to account for rent, clothes, food, medicine, emergencies etc. And make all individuals keep receipts of all expenses and purchaces so to balance, readjust or terminate the care welfare will provide if these demands are not met. Provide bus tickets and or gas monies into the budget before not after the individuals plans and goals are set to insure that the person or family has the means to get to the places they need to be without excuses. Plan weekly or bi weekly meetings with the individual to insure that they remain on the path they have chose.
I'm really skeptical about hard you've tried to go through the system because if you had, you'd know anyone can get OSAP, and OSAP provides for cost of living for rent, transportation costs, etc. It's not
free money- you have to pay it back in the end- but while you're studying you don't have to pay a cent and it covers your most important costs. It will provide for you while you need the help, and once you've finished the degree and are employable, then you can start making payments back (there is a six month grace period for you to find a job before you are required to pay money back). I know, because I'm using OSAP.
scared1010 said:
If there goal is to seek employment then let them do so within a reasonable amount of time without excuses and provide care until they have got on their feet again and is able to provide the basics for themselves. All proof of progress is in the work or school attenance and in the reciepts they will have to provide. Daycare subsized and a week short waiting lists if this means the government has to open and fund new facilities so be it but they should make it happen. Change the percentage of child care providers to child by 1 care giver to 3 children to insure the children get the attention and care they all deserve while in daycare. There are people who will try to fraud any system but one set up like this will differ these people becasue of the progress reports the weekly or bi weekly visits as well as the making of a solid plan for improvement. The funds for education not given directly to the individual but only to the schools directly. The only monies handed to the recipient is the monies for the month which should be direct deposited into the persons account in two payments for the month not one which will make budgeting a little easier . And as I said before all expences need to be accounted for with receipts which will be viewed on the weekly or bi weekly meetings with the worker. Life has its ups and downs and sometimes there will be considerations to the rules. Such as new mothers and or people with learning disabilities, mental illness etc. But all issues and situations must be placed into consideration and be made known to the worker to be able to be eligiable for the program.
There's already a system in place where if you're trying to go to school & can't afford it, OSAP will cover your costs. You apply, they look at your tax records, and if you really
are poor, they give you the amount of money you need to pay for tuition, books, transportation, and even rent if you have children or cannot receive support from your parents & live on your own.
scared1010 said:
Sure there may be little problems with my plan of the way it should be but these plans are good plans that should be put into consideration and revised if the need is there for it to be.
Yes this all costs money but with a plan like this in place life would be so much safer, cleaner, happier and like most people who are opposed to legalizing prostitution it will ensure that if anyone is receiving pleasure and sex from someone, you will know he or she is not paying for it.
It seems your argument is society is failing people, so prostitution should be allowed until certain issues are addressed. So you obviously don't think prostitution is some sort of ideal job, or something that ought to be promoted, but is something that is turned to through sheer desperation.
I'd say that rather than changing the laws to legalise prostitution, we should be fixing any problems in the social safety net.
If you make prostitution legal, then it's legal work just like anything else, and even people who don't want to do it would not be able to receive things like EI if they receive offers for it because it would be a job just like anything else (this problem is happening in Germany). Legalising prostitution would force people who don't want to do it into it and entrap them as well. And would the problems preventing prostitutes from getting an education, etc., be addressed at all, helping them to get out of this type of work? Well, no. The government would have
less incentive to help them because they would then be able to meet their basic needs financially.
scared1010 said:
The debate is a long one in the eyes of someone so sheltered yet full of opinons and critisims. But for the people in the world that are living life in poverty the case is closed. Welfare as it is, is no ones safety net. Its just a net with major holes in it that can not support anyone.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me sheltered. You aren't even aware of some of the larger issues that I just pointed out surrounding the legalisation of prostitution, and yet you have so many criticisms of my arguments and nothing to rebut the problems with legalisation that I've pointed out.
scared1010 said:
Other countries give their people a hell of a lot more and are better organized with there programs. Canada and the US are rih enough to provide I am sure.
They're not supposed to provide for anybody. People should provide for themselves. The only responsibility government has- as representative of society as a whole- is to try to help those who are disadvantage or who have not had an opportunity to make it.
The idea isn't to
provide for people, but to help them so that they can provide for themselves.
scared1010 said:
So blame our government for having failed the people who sell sex for money. Dont blame the ones who have and are suffering. Dont blame people for wanting more out of life then a cheque that does not allow someone to live with dignity or one that does not support anyones basic needs.
You condemn the gov't for denying people dignity with an inadequate cheque, but then argue that a job ought to be legal that denies people their dignity. So are you for or against people living dignified lives?
scared1010 said:
Lastly, for the love of GOD do not even start to say that prosituting oneself is a perversion and is linked to child porn, child sex, child abuse etc. Someone who does that and exposes a child to that life is perverted and very sick mentally.
There's something mentally sick about the idea that you can use someone as an object to fulfill your sexual desires with no regard for them as a person, in the manner that prostitution allows (even if the people being used in that manner are adults).
scared1010 said:
Being forced to do something someone does not want to do is cruel. No one, adult or child should have to do anything they dont want to do. The people that do this to others should be punished greatly when it comes to sex with a child for money or forced sex. But I am not talking about that here and that is not the issue. Selling a child for sex of any kind has no link to prostuiton of two or more consenting adults. No one is forcing me to do what I need to do to live but the system itself.
I'd argue that the system isn't forcing you to do what you're doing. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Lots of people are poor and they don't resort to prostitution to get by.
The rest of your post raises points that I already addressed before. If you want to know my answer, go back and take a look.
