How we treat prostitutes
- Thread starter Gonzo
- Start date
I don’t understand how being registered would get rid of the pimps. They work behind the scenes. How would being registered stop pimps from getting prostitutes to work for them? And if prostitution is legal, how will the government get every prostitute to register, and how will it stop johns from going to non-registered hookers? And would every sex worker want to register? Maybe some would not want to register with the government as a sex worker. Would they have to pay taxes for there income?
It would be great if legalizing it would work and make it safe. But I can’t see how it would.
It would be great if legalizing it would work and make it safe. But I can’t see how it would.
Re: RE: How we treat prostitu
It's nice that they're making so much money. But what about their responsibily to show due respect to the society in which they live likewise? With such an attitude that there's money in it so why not, just immagine the result if it became legal. I can guarantee that, as a man, if I had to scan the whole city looking for a brothel-free hotel, just to give up the search and finally just settle for the nearest hotel, and then have to disconnect my phone, and put a 'Do not disturb' sign in my door, or have to put up with phone calls from prostitutes all night because I'm expecting an important phone call, I'd expect a cut of that $500 for all the disruption, offence, and harassement I'd have to suffer through every time I set off travelling.
Believe it or not, this is what I put up with every time I'm out of town here in China, unless I actually sleep at friends' homes when that is possible. Not because priostitution is legal here, but rather because the police do nothing about it, and as it turns out, one foreigner in this city had told me that some police officer friends of him had themselves offered to 'buy a girlfriend' for him for the night.
So in the end, you're suggesting that I must put up with constant harassement throughout my travels so that some woman can make a good living through sex? I don't think so!
Twila said:
It's nice that they're making so much money. But what about their responsibily to show due respect to the society in which they live likewise? With such an attitude that there's money in it so why not, just immagine the result if it became legal. I can guarantee that, as a man, if I had to scan the whole city looking for a brothel-free hotel, just to give up the search and finally just settle for the nearest hotel, and then have to disconnect my phone, and put a 'Do not disturb' sign in my door, or have to put up with phone calls from prostitutes all night because I'm expecting an important phone call, I'd expect a cut of that $500 for all the disruption, offence, and harassement I'd have to suffer through every time I set off travelling.
Believe it or not, this is what I put up with every time I'm out of town here in China, unless I actually sleep at friends' homes when that is possible. Not because priostitution is legal here, but rather because the police do nothing about it, and as it turns out, one foreigner in this city had told me that some police officer friends of him had themselves offered to 'buy a girlfriend' for him for the night.
So in the end, you're suggesting that I must put up with constant harassement throughout my travels so that some woman can make a good living through sex? I don't think so!
Re: RE: How we treat prostitu
And if this were true, then it would be paramount to saying that a man should show enough respect for a woman's dignity, but a woman has every right to insult a man passing by on the street by taking him for a potential John. Sorry, but while I'm all for women's rights, men have a right to some respect as well.
Twila said:
And if this were true, then it would be paramount to saying that a man should show enough respect for a woman's dignity, but a woman has every right to insult a man passing by on the street by taking him for a potential John. Sorry, but while I'm all for women's rights, men have a right to some respect as well.
Gonzo said:
I agree with much of this. Certainly we need to defend women who are forced into sex. I also recognize the importance of not being judgemental towards prostitutes. Let's help them. And if a person does in fact make such a decision in their lives, and then realizes the folly of their decision, let's accept them as part of the community. Whether the money comes from the government or private contributions is irrelevent. Perhaps religious comunities might want to engage in such endeavours as well.
And the issue of third world countries is an important one too. Unfortunately, the religious communities, which are the most outspoken against prostitution (which I can agree with) can also be the most opposed to helping them, are the most judgemental and least forgiving towards them, and are often among the most nationalistic part of society which would rather do whatever they can to keep immigrants out of the country and keep our wealth to ourselves, even if it means a higher risk to women. I guess they suppose these woman aren't canadians anyway, so who cares? Or maybe they just suppose it's a small price to pay to protect national interests, etc.
So I suppose that until religinists actually start practicing their faith, these problems will only persist. While I might not agree with many of the solutions proposed by secularists, I must say that at least they're trying to find a solution rather than just try to eliminate prostitution following a hard line without any understanding towads prostitutes.
RE: How we treat prostitu
Or you could simply not visit the red light district. Which is what would happen here.
In Victoria the prostitutes worked on Government Street. They were known there. The cops knew them. They knew the cops. Tabs were kept. Tacit agreement was they were allowed on the street after 9:00pm, before 9:00 they were removed. Now? They've been pushed away from there and work all different corners, at all different locations. Who knows who? Who's keeping tabs on who?
If they were registered and legal they'd have an area. Saanich (in Victoria) is the only location where it is legal to run a call service. You can't run one in Victoria, only Saanich.
Actually, my point was that as a invincible 13-14-15-16yr old you try and tell them that making $6.00 an hour working 8hrs days is "better" then working 4hrs for hundreds of dollars.
The oldest trick in the book for pimps to "turn" a girl is to tell them about the money they'd make. The clothes they could buy. The money and freedom they would have.
It's nice to sit back and think how if it remains illegal how it may just what? Disappear from sight?
We have a history of hundreds of years of it being illegal and NOT working. We have history of it working just fine in European cities. For some reason in North America it's fine to show violence but not sex.
If it were legal it would be in an area. If you're walking throught that area your are in fact a potential customer.
Or you could simply not visit the red light district. Which is what would happen here.
In Victoria the prostitutes worked on Government Street. They were known there. The cops knew them. They knew the cops. Tabs were kept. Tacit agreement was they were allowed on the street after 9:00pm, before 9:00 they were removed. Now? They've been pushed away from there and work all different corners, at all different locations. Who knows who? Who's keeping tabs on who?
If they were registered and legal they'd have an area. Saanich (in Victoria) is the only location where it is legal to run a call service. You can't run one in Victoria, only Saanich.
Actually, my point was that as a invincible 13-14-15-16yr old you try and tell them that making $6.00 an hour working 8hrs days is "better" then working 4hrs for hundreds of dollars.
The oldest trick in the book for pimps to "turn" a girl is to tell them about the money they'd make. The clothes they could buy. The money and freedom they would have.
It's nice to sit back and think how if it remains illegal how it may just what? Disappear from sight?
We have a history of hundreds of years of it being illegal and NOT working. We have history of it working just fine in European cities. For some reason in North America it's fine to show violence but not sex.
If it were legal it would be in an area. If you're walking throught that area your are in fact a potential customer.
Returning to the title of the thread
How we treat prostitutes....
I thought the whole point was, you DIDN'T HAVE to "treat" the prostitute, you simply paid. If you have to "treat" a prostitute, it's just a date, isn't it?
How we treat prostitutes....
I thought the whole point was, you DIDN'T HAVE to "treat" the prostitute, you simply paid. If you have to "treat" a prostitute, it's just a date, isn't it?
Re: RE: How we treat prostitu
'Trinket'? First time I've heard of that one. I could think of better names to describe them, but I'll restrain myself here.
Twila said:
'Trinket'? First time I've heard of that one. I could think of better names to describe them, but I'll restrain myself here.
Re: RE: How we treat prostitu
All right, perhaps I misunderstood your point. And certainly I might have exagerated a little. But please understand where I'm coming from here.
I haven't found myself in such circumstances often (three times in 3.5 years in China actually walking into such a place) but it's offensive and embarassing none-the-less, even if just once, and especially when it's with both male and female colleagues not having realised what it was beforehand. But here in China some cities don't have red light districts, they are red light districts, with locations next to kindergartens, primary and middle schools, university campuses, and family oriented neighbourhoods! In some cities it's obvious ( I could actually see the red lights, it's obvious what it was, and so could cross the street to avoid being near it or, if it lined both sides of the street, move on to another street, or just walk thgough as quickly as I can to get to the other side to get to where I want to go, something you have no idea abou in Canada because at least the police in Canada do their job.). And why should I have to make a detour just so a bunch of of Johns and prostitutes can do their thing, not to mention it's not even legal to begin with? And if I'm going to some shop on the other side, or visiting friends on the other side of the area, why should I have to put up with having to see this smutt? Don't get me wrong, by smutt here I'm referring to their behaviour, and have no ill-will against anyone engaging in such activities.
And for the less obvious ones, it was pretty embarrassing when some local female collegues lead me to a KTV one evening which was new to them also, just for us all to realize it was just a more subtle brothel. Twila, how would you and other female colleagues decided to invite a male colleague who's new to town out for fun one evening and decided to try out a new place which gave no obvious indication that it was a brothel, just for you to suddenly start getting suspicious once you're in, and looking around with an inquisitive mind you can quickly put two and two together despite the subtlety of it, and knowing that he ain't stupid either, and then decide to leave right away to find another location. I'm sure you'd feel pretty embarrassed, no? Why should local women have to put up with such embarassement likewise?
Or if you're a man, book into an apparently middle class hotel, recommended by a good friend, and the hotel is clean, nice, and you can see families going there too, (and the name of this Hotel was 'Islam Hotel' believe it or not), one of the better or more reputed (not infamous) hotels in town, and in the end you need to disconnect your phone due to harassement?
Now I understand what you're getting at (i.e., reserve a location in town for this kind of thing). OK, and where exactly will we put this district? Next door to your home?
Twila said:
All right, perhaps I misunderstood your point. And certainly I might have exagerated a little. But please understand where I'm coming from here.
I haven't found myself in such circumstances often (three times in 3.5 years in China actually walking into such a place) but it's offensive and embarassing none-the-less, even if just once, and especially when it's with both male and female colleagues not having realised what it was beforehand. But here in China some cities don't have red light districts, they are red light districts, with locations next to kindergartens, primary and middle schools, university campuses, and family oriented neighbourhoods! In some cities it's obvious ( I could actually see the red lights, it's obvious what it was, and so could cross the street to avoid being near it or, if it lined both sides of the street, move on to another street, or just walk thgough as quickly as I can to get to the other side to get to where I want to go, something you have no idea abou in Canada because at least the police in Canada do their job.). And why should I have to make a detour just so a bunch of of Johns and prostitutes can do their thing, not to mention it's not even legal to begin with? And if I'm going to some shop on the other side, or visiting friends on the other side of the area, why should I have to put up with having to see this smutt? Don't get me wrong, by smutt here I'm referring to their behaviour, and have no ill-will against anyone engaging in such activities.
And for the less obvious ones, it was pretty embarrassing when some local female collegues lead me to a KTV one evening which was new to them also, just for us all to realize it was just a more subtle brothel. Twila, how would you and other female colleagues decided to invite a male colleague who's new to town out for fun one evening and decided to try out a new place which gave no obvious indication that it was a brothel, just for you to suddenly start getting suspicious once you're in, and looking around with an inquisitive mind you can quickly put two and two together despite the subtlety of it, and knowing that he ain't stupid either, and then decide to leave right away to find another location. I'm sure you'd feel pretty embarrassed, no? Why should local women have to put up with such embarassement likewise?
Or if you're a man, book into an apparently middle class hotel, recommended by a good friend, and the hotel is clean, nice, and you can see families going there too, (and the name of this Hotel was 'Islam Hotel' believe it or not), one of the better or more reputed (not infamous) hotels in town, and in the end you need to disconnect your phone due to harassement?
Now I understand what you're getting at (i.e., reserve a location in town for this kind of thing). OK, and where exactly will we put this district? Next door to your home?
RE: How we treat prostitu
A friend of mine who worked in this profession had a regular clientel. Her best paying client paid to paint her toenails. He paid $300.00 to paint her toenails. His profession? He's a judge. In Victoria.
It's only certain section of society who feel that prositution should remain illegal.
Actually, it wouldn't bother me. I was raised by a european family. We had no qualms about sex. Only the glorification of violence distrubs me. Sex doesn't embarrass me. Being propositioned is not new to me.
A friend of mine who worked in this profession had a regular clientel. Her best paying client paid to paint her toenails. He paid $300.00 to paint her toenails. His profession? He's a judge. In Victoria.
It's only certain section of society who feel that prositution should remain illegal.
Gonzo said:
1. No one is forced... you NEVER have to do anything you don't want to. If you say no, thats your answer, what happens afterwards is not great, but at least you have your dignity.
2. Rap is just music. It's the entertainment we watch and no one has to "live like that" to get what they want. Parents should be there to remind their kids that what they see in the media isn't always right. I'm an regular rap enthusist, and I prefer listing to the terrible words of bitches and whores throughout songs. I have a girlfriend and I treat her with respect and dignity. I know what's right and wrong and by the way I'm 17 years old, holding a 78% average in school.
3. Who said a "Pimp in Training" shirts mean the kids actually think that way? It's just a shirt. Just because someone is wearing a Mats Sundin leaf jersey doesn't mean they're Mats Sundin? Beating woman?? Come on.
4. Not sure, I haven't seen statistics relating to the number of immigrants "entering and being" killed record. Until I do, I'll argue that not as many cases are like that. I'm sure the cops do nothing? :roll:
True, I think it's rather sad that a movie with people blowing each other up, stabbing each other, or other things gets rated P-13 or something but a movie involving two consenting adults demonstrating love is rated X(or R or whatever the damn rating system is).
What does that say about our society?
European TV is more or less the opposite. More Sex Less Violence. Even though sex abuse is worldwide it the frequencey of it in Europe is lower than in North America. I wonder if there's a connection?
Re: RE: How we treat prostitutes
Wonder no more. Generally the more open a society is about anything, the less it is abused.
Look at Amsterdam!
Jo Canadian said:
Wonder no more. Generally the more open a society is about anything, the less it is abused.
Look at Amsterdam!
Re: RE: How we treat prostitutes
Are you for real? Are you trying to equate the desire for a family member not to be a prostitute, to something like the misogynistic desire to control the women of one's family?
Prostitution is hardly ideal work! It's degrading and demeaning and any decent family member would not want that for any other family member, male or female!
I for one am completely opposed to the idea that any woman can be bought or sold for a man's pleasure. Human beings are not commodities to be put on the market. The argument that just because a certain illegal activity continues and will continue and so therefore we should legalise and regulate it is idiotic.
Use it for anything else! Murder is never going to go away. Rape is never going to go away. Theft will always happen. Just because something is going to happen no matter what is not a cause to make it a legal practice!
In Canada, there is no economic reason forcing a woman into prostitution. Hello, welfare?! A woman can go on welfare, get herself a free education, and become a productive and respected member of society.
Women who, on the other hand, are involved in the consumption of drugs and then work as a prostitute to continue their habit due to their addiction are entirely worthy of our empathy and we have a moral obligation to reach out and try to help them get out of the situation. Ditto for any woman who is forced in one way or another to perform this type of 'work' against their will.
The legalisation of prostitution is directly linked to human trafficking (slave trade!). Once it's legal for a woman to work as a prostitute, and the demand to pay a woman for sex is legal, then comes the demand for the women themselves. Do a google search! The largest slave traders are all for sexual slavery, and happen in countries where rules on prostitution are lax or unenforced. The Netherlands is a great example of this. While human trafficking is illegal and the gov't there makes some effort to tackle the problem, women are still bought and sold by pimps for about $10, 000 in the modern slave trade! These women are not choosing this work, and legalisation hasn't protected them from being forced into it! It's actually been a catalyst for more innocent women being forced into it!
Much to our own shame as a nation, the recent (and now revoked) legalisation allowing foreign workers' visas for stripping caused many women from countries in Romania and Eastern Europe to be brought to Canada under the guise of doing domestic work, only to be brought to the hotel and kept their against their will while they were 'broken in' for their new work. See: Stripper Visa Scandal Exposes Canada's Complicity in Human Trafficking
It's simple: humans are not to be bought and sold. Humans are not playthings for people to amuse themselves with. Society should not allow its body of law to promote the values that turn people into things and dehumanize the disadvantaged. Period.
p106_peppy said:
Are you for real? Are you trying to equate the desire for a family member not to be a prostitute, to something like the misogynistic desire to control the women of one's family?
Prostitution is hardly ideal work! It's degrading and demeaning and any decent family member would not want that for any other family member, male or female!
I for one am completely opposed to the idea that any woman can be bought or sold for a man's pleasure. Human beings are not commodities to be put on the market. The argument that just because a certain illegal activity continues and will continue and so therefore we should legalise and regulate it is idiotic.
Use it for anything else! Murder is never going to go away. Rape is never going to go away. Theft will always happen. Just because something is going to happen no matter what is not a cause to make it a legal practice!
In Canada, there is no economic reason forcing a woman into prostitution. Hello, welfare?! A woman can go on welfare, get herself a free education, and become a productive and respected member of society.
Women who, on the other hand, are involved in the consumption of drugs and then work as a prostitute to continue their habit due to their addiction are entirely worthy of our empathy and we have a moral obligation to reach out and try to help them get out of the situation. Ditto for any woman who is forced in one way or another to perform this type of 'work' against their will.
The legalisation of prostitution is directly linked to human trafficking (slave trade!). Once it's legal for a woman to work as a prostitute, and the demand to pay a woman for sex is legal, then comes the demand for the women themselves. Do a google search! The largest slave traders are all for sexual slavery, and happen in countries where rules on prostitution are lax or unenforced. The Netherlands is a great example of this. While human trafficking is illegal and the gov't there makes some effort to tackle the problem, women are still bought and sold by pimps for about $10, 000 in the modern slave trade! These women are not choosing this work, and legalisation hasn't protected them from being forced into it! It's actually been a catalyst for more innocent women being forced into it!
Much to our own shame as a nation, the recent (and now revoked) legalisation allowing foreign workers' visas for stripping caused many women from countries in Romania and Eastern Europe to be brought to Canada under the guise of doing domestic work, only to be brought to the hotel and kept their against their will while they were 'broken in' for their new work. See: Stripper Visa Scandal Exposes Canada's Complicity in Human Trafficking
It's simple: humans are not to be bought and sold. Humans are not playthings for people to amuse themselves with. Society should not allow its body of law to promote the values that turn people into things and dehumanize the disadvantaged. Period.
RE: How we treat prostitu
Actually collecting welfare is degrading and demeaning to anybody.
The reason that prositution is considered degrading and demeaning is because of our western feelings on it. Vancouver has a group for the empowerment of prostitutes. Not to get them out of the business but to show others they have pride in their jobs, they are happy with their choices. It's run by them for them.
They're are forced prositutes and but there are lots of girls making LARGE money in that a business they very much enjoy. They are they're own bosses, are paying their own way and putting themselves through college, university or setting it aside for retirement.
Actually collecting welfare is degrading and demeaning to anybody.
The reason that prositution is considered degrading and demeaning is because of our western feelings on it. Vancouver has a group for the empowerment of prostitutes. Not to get them out of the business but to show others they have pride in their jobs, they are happy with their choices. It's run by them for them.
They're are forced prositutes and but there are lots of girls making LARGE money in that a business they very much enjoy. They are they're own bosses, are paying their own way and putting themselves through college, university or setting it aside for retirement.
Re: RE: How we treat prostitu
And on what are you basing your idea that this is a western idea that causes shame to surround the sex trade? It's a pretty universal feeling. It's a common emotion in the Middle East and South Asia, I'm sure pretty much everywhere.
Collecting welfare may be demeaning, but it's highly preferable to the alternative. And using the social safety net to train yourself for a proper profession is exactly why that is there, where becoming a prostitute is not going to get you anywhere else in life.
I don't deny that a large amount of money can be made in the profession, but I do doubt that the majority of the woman involved in it are living a wealthy life style. Most women who are hooking on the corner are on drugs and they don't keep most of that money. In fact, they're usually no better off after spending a lifetime on the streets.
And the idea that women enjoy this work...well, I'm sure there's some woman out there who does, but by and large, the idea that women everywhere are enjoying it is absurd. This is not a sexual act meant to please the man and woman. This is an act of exploitation where a man uses the woman to satisfy himself. The man doesn't give a damn whether the woman has a pleasureable experience or not. To act as though it's fun when it's going to be little more than a chore is just living up a stereotype and myth that pimps use to convince women to join the business.
Twila said:
And on what are you basing your idea that this is a western idea that causes shame to surround the sex trade? It's a pretty universal feeling. It's a common emotion in the Middle East and South Asia, I'm sure pretty much everywhere.
Collecting welfare may be demeaning, but it's highly preferable to the alternative. And using the social safety net to train yourself for a proper profession is exactly why that is there, where becoming a prostitute is not going to get you anywhere else in life.
I don't deny that a large amount of money can be made in the profession, but I do doubt that the majority of the woman involved in it are living a wealthy life style. Most women who are hooking on the corner are on drugs and they don't keep most of that money. In fact, they're usually no better off after spending a lifetime on the streets.
And the idea that women enjoy this work...well, I'm sure there's some woman out there who does, but by and large, the idea that women everywhere are enjoying it is absurd. This is not a sexual act meant to please the man and woman. This is an act of exploitation where a man uses the woman to satisfy himself. The man doesn't give a damn whether the woman has a pleasureable experience or not. To act as though it's fun when it's going to be little more than a chore is just living up a stereotype and myth that pimps use to convince women to join the business.