How we treat prostitutes

[iwillescortu]

Re: RE: How we treat prostitu

Col, maybe in England it's different. Or maybe you gf was with an agency?

Here in BC, the prositutes have to have a pimp. A girl working a corner is "bumped" with no pimp. or taken. With a pimp if she wants to leave she has to pay a 'fee" with is usually set to impossible.

Not sure where you get your info from honey, but in 14 years I have never had a pimp. When I arrived in Victoria there was a "class" system among the working girls. All Girls on Government street had pimps, those around Broughtan and Courtney (my area) were the independants (a few had spotters, could be male, and some had b/f, but NO PIMPS), the girls around Johnson Street where the drugged out ones again, NO PIMPS.

The cops chased us out of downtown a few years back and also suceed in getting The West Coast Boys (The PIMPS) to leave town completely. The only time a pimped out girl shows up here is when the navel ships are in town or occassionaly a few from the Canadian Circuit come over for part of the summer.

The girls around Hastings street in Vancouver are not pimped, those around Davies are. Boys town has no pimps either (to my knowledge). In Kelowna, some girls on the Canadian Circuit are placed there for the summer, but as soon as the weather turns the're gone and the girls who live there (not pimped) stay for the winter. I'm not sure about Nanimo, but from what I hear they are the same as Kelowna, most local girls do not have PIMPS.

 

[scared1010]

Legalizing prostution and decriminalizing are different. I received a lot of information from this Toronto based Organization. Sex Professionals of Canada. Check it out. http://www.spoc.ca/

Scared.

 

[iwillescortu]

Wow I can't pm scared1010, I'm too new.
It seems that the e-mail fuction connected to this forum has been disabled so I can't do that.
So I am going to request that Wednesday's Child or Jaun pm me through TalkOn so I can give them my e-mail to pass on to Scared1010. If one of you could please do that I could possibly help her.

 

[iwillescortu]

I have finally read through this thread and have so much to say, but its late again and with classes in the morning, I need some sleep. :roll: yeah right what's that.

Legalizing prostution and decriminalizing are different. I received a lot of information from this Toronto based Organization. Sex Professionals of Canada.

You are very right and I see boths sides of that point and still waiver a bit to which would work best.

There is another very unfair law attached to street level prostitution, one which most people are unaware. It is illegal in Canada for a prostitute to impeed (sp?) traffic. Now there is a good reason for that law, no one should be subject to harssment by a sex trade worker, but it is the way the law is stated and the way the police utilize it that causes so much risk for the working girls.

Say a girl is standing on the corner and a John pulls over to talk to her, if any car is blocked by the john's park job the female can be charged. That means the girl is responsible for his behavior before she has even talked to him, and in some cases even seen him. That includes a car that was legally parked behind him and now has to wait even a couple seconds to move. This one law causes girls to jump into cars without sizing up the guy.

Ideally a girl should be able to judge, is he drunk or high. Are there visable weapons. How do the doors open in case of an emeregency. Is he acting strange or just giving off a bad vibe. Are you even willing to provide the service he is seeking, a lot more than straight sex is requested out there. I personally have jumped out of a car at many red lights luckily never while moving, though I know some who have.

Combine the two laws and the girls move to areas where they are out of sight, in the dark, jumping into cars with strange (usually much stronger)men. Their are few people to scream for help too, and less who actually would care enough to do anything. Then as the girl legally cannot discuse what she will or will not do for any given price the John is often expecting more service then she was willing to provide. This is a receipe for trouble. This is why so many girls are beat up robbed and raped and then have little recourse. The response from police would shock most of you.

Yes you can rape a prostitue, we do have the right to say no, but that strange law takes away most of our rights as we agreed in the first place didn't we? Yes we agreed because we were using code words and may not have been speaking the same code. Funny thing is if an average girl agrees to sex, then changes her mind or say there are things she won't do, she has that right, but we don't.

 

[iwillescortu]

One more thing I would like to touch on before sleepy bys is Economics and the laws of supply and demand.

No one would manufacture 8 track tapes in Canada because there is not enough demand to reach equalibrium. That is to say you would not make enough money selling the tapes to pay for the raw materials, production costs and staff. Business owners cannot go in the red forever and still stay in business. The same applies to any service and that includes the sex trade.

What girl would stand on the street corner night after night if no one ever came to pick her up. Look at any tourist city in Canada and you will see the amount of girls on the street rise and fall with the comings and goings of the tourists. Here in Victoria, if a navel ship arrives girls come from Vancouver, Kelowna, up Island and even from Washington State just to meet the demand for the couple nights the ship is here.

Now you can chase the girls away, or arrest them and throw away the key. You can help them to get out of the trade, but the sad fact (demand) remains. So for every girl who is removed from the equation another one will arrive to take her place.

The only way to reduce prostitution is to work on demand, that is it. You will never get rids of the girls as long as you have John's, NEVER. And the way the laws are, since it is easier to catch the girls that is what they do. These insane laws have cost the lives of countless women, it is sicker than the industry could ever be. Ohh now I'm ranting, oh well I feel since these laws have directly effected my life and my safety I have that right.

What some many people fail to realize is that at some time in your life, you have met an ex-sex trade worker. Few admit it, but do the math. Right now in Victoria the are roughly 150 street level sex trade workers (and yes PEERS does keep tabs on them because we care). As the street level is usually about 10% of the total amount of sex trade workers in any given city, then Victoria has roughly 1,500 females working in the sex trade on some level. Now imagine just how many girls are in and out in a short period of time. I know numerous girls who tried and quit in a week or a few months and you can realize that it has a revolving door. So there are literally thousands of females in Victoria who have been in the trade on some level at some point in time in their lives. You have met some, conversed with some and never knew, but yet fail as a society to protect them as they are disposable as long as they are in the trade. 8O

 

[iwillescortu]

Re: RE: How we treat prostitu

Throwing them in jail does not help the problem. Throwing pimps and johns in jail would be better.

Herein lies an important problem. To charge a pimp, you need proof, where you gonna get the proof from? The girl who would then be in serious danger from every other pimp who is associated with her man and knows where she lives, works and hangs out at? Very few pimps are ever charged, fewer ever have the charges stick. Remeber prostitues are disposable and not worthy of protection.

The Johns are another story. I'm not sure if straight people realize who the Johns are: they are married, single, widowed, separate, and often socially inept, they are construction workers, convicts, businessmen, firemen, docotrs, lawyers, judges and yes even police men. Some of them do not want to be expose, some of them are protected by the thin blue line which should prosecute them. We the working girls are aware of this, are you?

It is so much easier to blame the supply side and to catch and prosecute them, then it is to catch the demand (and actual cause of the problem) side. It is so much easier to allow them death than to give them a voice to expose their secrets.

 

[missile]

If the men were getting what they needed at home from their wives,there'd be little need for prostitutes Another reason for men to not bother with the wedding ceremony.

 

[iwillescortu]

Just because a lot of people take up protitution or use protitutes doesn't mean we should make it legal. It that should we define our laws? Things are only illegal if people don't do it, but if it become prevalent we make it legal?

Would you want any important woman (mom, sister, daughter, wife) in your life to take up protitution?[/quote]

I keep seeing this type of response and it really angers me. It is my body, not yours, the only person who could possibly be hurt by my occupation is me, it is my choice.

Of course there are many girls out there who were coerhersed at a very young age. I have known of girls as young as 12 who were turned out by the mothers, fathers, b/f and brothers. They had no choice. They were threathened, beat up, given drugs, or giving unrealistic dreams of rising out of abject poverty only to have their money taken by the dream makers.

There are also many like me (though much fewer in percentage) who choose the lifestyle. Many of these are young single mothers or girls trying to get an otherwise unattainable education.

As for those who were forced it often involved drugs while dropping out of school extremely young age and those two facts combine make it very difficult to leave the streets even once the threat is gone. I know girls in their twenties who have never owner or used an alarm clock, with less than grade seven educations, what choices do they have now?

Lets look back at the figures for a moment. If there are 150 street level girls in Victoria (and that is a good estimate) and therefore approximately 1,500 sextrade workers in the whole city, think for a moment just how many John's reside or visit this city.

Using a very conseverative average of 3 john's per girl per shift and five shifts per week, that's around 22,500 dates per average month happening in and around Victoria. So just how many John's are there? Well thats trickier, since there are many regulars that can be biweekly or once every few months. There are always one timers or those who only use services while travelling or during celebrations. So that number is not a true representative of the number of Johns, but it does give one pause for thought that there are more Johns than most imagine.

Why then do I not hear, who wants their father, brother, son, uncle to be a John??? Why is it that if a girl choose it or is forced, she is the one in the most danger?? Why is that all right? Stinks of our patriarchy society doesn't it. The men want it, the men CHOOSE it (none of them is ever force), the men demand it, the women who supply it are marginalized, degraded, unprotected and dicarded. Simple Economics yet so hard to comprehend. We deserve protection in a society where sex sells and women sell it. Maybe your mother sister daugther doesn't sell it, but maybe your friends or co-workers does, don't they deserve protection?

 

[FiveParadox]

In my opinion, prostitution should be recognized as an occupation for all intents and purposes in Canada — the Government of Canada should extend its protections to citizens who choose to do so, and there should be measures put in place to ensure their safety.

In my opinion, whether or not I would ever go into prostitution, or whether I would ever exercise the solicitation of sexual services (both of which I would presume the negative), it saddens me to see the amount of danger that some prostitutes seem to become trapped in. We should create mechanisms by which prostitutes can organize themselves, unionise and, further, seek methods by which prostitution can be made safer.

 

[iwillescortu]

If the men were getting what they needed at home from their wives,there'd be little need for prostitutes Another reason for men to not bother with the wedding ceremony.

How many men have I councilled in respect to their marriage? Lost track in the first few months many eons ago. How many marriages have I helped save? Well I have been thanked often enough to know I have helped John's also. Yes many men don't get what they want, they have choices too. They include talking to their wives (kinda part of their commitment) going for councilling, spending the money on surprises instead of on me (flowers, dinner out get the picture?), or getting a divorce. Sometimes just simple things like improving their hygene ukeleft: helping with the kids and/or around the house and learning to romance their wife instead of treating her just as a sexual object. You may demand from me, but demanding from your wife, well then you pay me. :lol:

Men who have menopausal wives?? Lube guys it works wonders. And ladies, if it's really that bad, then be resign to the fact that you find an acceptable way to met his needs, or divorce him, or he will pay me. :wink:

 

[Machjo]

If the men were getting what they needed at home from their wives,there'd be little need for prostitutes Another reason for men to not bother with the wedding ceremony.

Excuse me! I'm a man, and can say that I could NEVER blame another person for my sexual behaviour. I don't like getting into my sex life, but I will here since it does relate to the topic at hand. I'd been married for five years and, for various reasons, we never had sex for the last year. I never even considered forcing it, looking for someone else, or anything of the sort. I didn't even care about the sex so much as just trying to find out what the problem was with my wife and why she wasn't happy. Sorry, but a man is capable of controlling himself.

Another point: I'd never gotten married for the sex! Sure it was an added bonus, but that was that.

 

[Machjo]

iwillescortu:

I don't agree with everything you say, but you do raise some good points:

1. I fully agree that prostitutes as well as john ought not be stigmatized (although I still agree with purchassing the services of a prostitute punisheable by a fine: hit the man where it hurts!).

2. The extremes of wealth and poverty, combined with cultural expectations, can apply tremendous psychological pressure on a woman to meet these cultural expectations. As an example, I'd noticed tha some circles of Canadian society tend to look up to a wealthier person or one with a degree, and look down on a poorer one or one without a degree. Certainly, as far as the human desire to be accepted, or accepted as an equal, is concerned, that could cause some women to choose prostitution in the belief that that is what they must do to rise up to Canada's cultural expectation that they be wealthy or university educated. So what's teh solution to that? I don't know; maybe free universal university education? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this idea, but just pointing out certain sociological contributors.

I specify sociological as opposed to economic since, if everyone in a certain community is poor, even very poor, then socially they are all equal, and so these pressures might not exist. Yet a woman, even if not quite as poor than others, but poorer than those in her surrounding community, might still feel these social and psychological pressures to "succeed", "be somebody", become wealthy, get a degree, and so become the typical cookie cutter Canadian.

Anotehr solution, I suppose, would be through the primary and secondary education systems, de-emphasising materialism and strongly promoting "spirituality" of some kind, so as to eliminate any psychological and social stigmas which might associate with "poverty" or lack of a university degree, etc. Although this would be more radical since it would involve a complete paradigm shift in Canada's education system.

Again, I'm not suggesting I know the solution, but it would seem that, while the law can put bandaids on it now and then, the ultimate solution is at the source of the problem, and that would involve the education system and how we are raised to think and view the world around us.

 

[iwillescortu]

Good points Machjo, but it still misses the laws of supply and demand. Remember we are a consumer driven society and supply and demand is a major part of most of your points. It is that demand that will make someone supply it. Sex is after all a commodity in our society and as such has to follows those laws.

Such education will allow many women to make better choices, but if the demand is there it will be filled. If there are less girls one of two things (and most likely a combination) has to happen. Either the prices will rise to the point that poorer men can no longer afford it (and thus be taken out of the equation all together) or the women remaining in the trade will take on more customers. It has to end up in equaliberium.

Yes it would be nice if we could shift our society away from commercialism and back towards a more spirtualistic approach, but it won't happen. Then again, I would only want to see that if that patricular spirituality wasn't one which further stigmatizes women to some degree. Very few of these exist.

 

[zoofer]

Good to see you Iwillescortu.

 

[iwillescortu]

I don't see why prostitutes don't just get video cameras, film the damn act, and call it 'porno'. The john could pay for camera time instead of sex. There, perfectly legal.

Many working girls try hard to keep a low profile, so that once they quit, they can put it behind them. A porn star often can't do this.

Others would have a hard time performing sex acts in a room full of people. By the way have you seen the porn that is being produced these days? "If" I was young enough, and looked good enough (many girls don't) to be on film, I would still not have anything to do with porn. Those girls are constantly being pushed to do more incredibull feats just to sell tapes for some (mostly male) producers who make the majority of the money.

The average female porn star (this is referring to the headliner in the film, the other girls make less) makes about $5,000 per film. Each quality porno takes a week of filming, during which the girl is subjected to multiple partners, often at the same time and "place", inanimate objects, demeaning degrading positions, all filmed to possibly haunt her for years on end. Yeah, no thanks, I'll take the corner. If I am selling my body, I am setting the parameters, not another soul sucking male. :roll:

 

[Finder]

decriminalize it for sure... But we have to make sure nobody falls threw the cracks in our society and that women are not forced into this trade and that they have not entered this trade because they can't get any other job. I think it's the job of the government to help find work for anyone willing to work. I'm not saying a puplic sector jobs but to at least ensure everyone has the right to work and a job.

I think Mike Harris had something going. Unlike almost everyone else on the LEFT, I saw the benifit of having workfaire. Though I thought it should have been orginized a lot better, with social workers who help find job openings in both puplic and private sector for these people. Then if that doesn't work then move onto the jobs which Mike Harris (a Neo Con) proposed.

Anyhow if these needs are met I believe that there act should not be considered the crimal part, and that enforcement should be going after the pimps.

This is a very dificult issue as it has to deal with one's right to there own body, poverty, health and social standerds.

 

[Machjo]

"Good points Machjo, but it still misses the laws of supply and demand. Remember we are a consumer driven society and supply and demand is a major part of most of your points. It is that demand that will make someone supply it. Sex is after all a commodity in our society and as such has to follows those laws."

I think both supply and demand can only be solved through spirituality.

Such education will allow many women to make better choices, but if the demand is there it will be filled. If there are less girls one of two things (and most likely a combination) has to happen. Either the prices will rise to the point that poorer men can no longer afford it (and thus be taken out of the equation all together) or the women remaining in the trade will take on more customers. It has to end up in equaliberium.

If fewer girls enter the market, that's already a plus. And if that knocks some men out of the market as aresult, then it's an additional plus.

Yes it would be nice if we could shift our society away from commercialism and back towards a more spirtualistic approach, but it won't happen.

So then why try? I'm a logical man; I try to make the world better because I believe I can. It would be illogical of me to try if I believed I couldn't.

Then again, I would only want to see that if that patricular spirituality wasn't one which further stigmatizes women to some degree.

fully agreed!

Very few of these exist.

We only need one

 

[Machjo]

"Good points Machjo, but it still misses the laws of supply and demand. Remember we are a consumer driven society and supply and demand is a major part of most of your points. It is that demand that will make someone supply it. Sex is after all a commodity in our society and as such has to follows those laws."

I think both supply and demand can only be solved through spirituality.

Such education will allow many women to make better choices, but if the demand is there it will be filled. If there are less girls one of two things (and most likely a combination) has to happen. Either the prices will rise to the point that poorer men can no longer afford it (and thus be taken out of the equation all together) or the women remaining in the trade will take on more customers. It has to end up in equaliberium.

If fewer girls enter the market, that's already a plus. And if that knocks some men out of the market as aresult, then it's an additional plus.

Yes it would be nice if we could shift our society away from commercialism and back towards a more spirtualistic approach, but it won't happen.

So then why try? I'm a logical man; I try to make the world better because I believe I can. It would be illogical of me to try if I believed I couldn't.

Then again, I would only want to see that if that patricular spirituality wasn't one which further stigmatizes women to some degree.

fully agreed!

Very few of these exist.

We only need one

 

[iwillescortu]

Many here have suggested legalizing prostitution because these women are poor and so have no other option.

Hasn't anyone considered our collective responsibility in this then? How can we as a society allow women (or men, sinse some posters here brought up male prostitution) to fall to such a desperate situation in the first place? If the issue is poverty, then we have a collective responsibility to help. And if it's greed (i.e., the prostitute isn't poor but simply wants more money) then it ought not be tolerated, considering the social concequences involved. It's not just AIDS (you can solve that with a condom), but rather the wide range exploitation of women, a rising divorce rate, the pormotion of women as sex objects in the general psyche, and even, believe it or not, the harassement of men who don't want to participate in extreme cases such as in China, where prostitution is absolutely everywhere, salons, hotels, bath houses, KTV's, it never seases to amaze where I'll be offered it next.

In most cities here where I go for the first time, I'll run into it unintentionally sinse they use different fronts in different places. It's not like you only find it in red-lighted houses here, where it's obvious. There are many places where a foreigner wouldn't even guess that they'd have it by just looking at the building from the outside. And needless to say it's offensive when we walk in and then find out it's there! In the end, it's equal to harassement. Strange that we're now bringing up sexual harassement on the part of females towards males, sinse the topic is usually in reverse, but in the end, men have equal right to not have to face such harassement as the women.

So in the end, legalizing prostitution would in fact end letteing many people off the hook for their responsibilities:

1. Poor women wouln'd be expected to seek help anymore.
2. Society as a whole would no longer need to concern itself with the poor and poverty (after all, that's what prostitution is for, right?).
3. The prostitutes from showing general respect and courtecy for the people in the cities in which they live by invading every place where one might find a bed or private room (Hotels, bath houses, etc.; I'd even walked into a KTV with some friends and co-workers, just for us to run out in shock less than a minute later when we realised that it was just a more subtle brothel using a decent KTV as a front (and both the women and men in our group were equally offended by it), which is absolutely offensive and insulting to our dignity as human beings. I've even seen obvious brothels next foor to or across the street from primary and middle schools and even kindergartens, with University districts crawling with them!

These are collective responsibilities we must consider before we just abandon them and legalize prostitution. Once it becomes 'acceptable', people will start washing their hands of the problem, at which stage it would just become epicemic.

The number of women who enter the trade under the guise of greed is extremely low, though there is always a few exceptions. Even there, how is that wrong? If a women is driven in this consumer based society, to achieve wealth, but has no other commodity to utilize than her body, how can you say than it is wrong for her, just because you don't like it? I don't like the way a lot of businesses exploit others (sometimes outright scam them), to make more profit, but the sex trade women is always deemed bad while the "business" man is often held in high esteem, or given a great retirement package and dismissed. :roll:

Most of the rest of your post is pointing to China as an example of what could happen here. First of all, was there ever a social safety net in China? I for one doubt it. So just where were these women suppose to go for help? We have a safety net in Canada that allows people to make choices, some of us don't like that choice. But since we do have the choice a smaller percentage of Canadian women "have to" go into the sex trade as their only option. Our society (who wants their mother sister daughter forced....remeber?) simply won't allow this.

In Canada there are many forms of sex trade and many places to ply your choosen position. I have visited most of the hotels and motels in Victoria from five star down to some of the worst. Most of us are already very descrete as "our culture" demands this. When out on the street in my Daisy Dukes, I always had a conservative dress in my car, just in case I had to enter the Empress, and I often did.

Why do I have to rely on the welfare system to help if I don't want to, just because you are oppose to it. Welfare is abject poverty, I myself don't want it. I can work for less than twenty hours a week, remain independance of you and the government, instead of falling into a system that expects you to jump through hoops for peanuts. That can end up being so demoralizating as to make it almost imposible to escape the sytem which is there to "help" you in the first place.

Finally it would seem to me that most people in Canada have already washed their hands of the problem as long as they don't have to "see" it. In other words as long as the girls are chased into the industrial zones where there are few lights, no pay phones, and no other forms of protection and they end up dead at some pig farm, then you don't have to worry. But how dare they show up where they are safe and you can "see" them. At what stage does it become epidemic? Let's see given the info I have already provided, if in Victoria bc with a population of 335,000, we have 1,500 people come down with the flu at one time, most people would be incline to agree, it had already reached epidemic proportions. 90% of us are just not coughing. :roll:

 

[Finder]

iwillescortu, is it possible that you have been blinded by your own success? Living in Toronto Population..... too many and growing... I see every day I go to work hundreds who have fallen threw the social safty net. Not because of the social safty net itself but because of people like Mike Harris whom cut holes into it. Once you lose everything it is extremely hard to get back onto your feet. If you have no mailing address good luck getting a job even at mcdonalds. Also when you consider a Mcjob won't pay your bills here in Toronto your pretty screwed.

My wife and I make over 65k a year. Yeah we don't make that much. But we can not afford to even buy property in Toronto because of the expense of property here and we are forced to rent. Renting in Toronto is so high it costs like 800-1500 dollars for nothing. Which helps keep down the working poor. Now when I think of people with Mcjobs making 15-20k a year... if they are the single worker in there family, hell if there by themselves how can they survive.. Some people even with jobs are forced into a life of crime and prostitution and drugs by society itself.