Haitian airport backlog- what's your suggestion?

[lone wolf]

Oh my goodness, the open purse scenario. Sure millions will be poured into the Hatian bucket and flow out of the old stratigically and economically placed holes, none of the money but a pittance for the local sociopathic elite stays in Hati and that has made the disaster a hundredfold worse than it might otherwise have been. There is absolutely nothing to prevent the same flow this time. Look for bare subsistance as the likeliest outcome, again, and completed carnage and wholesale slaughter at the worst as hemispherical priorities are addressed. If those holes were patched Hati would become a vibrant strong independent nation beholding to none. "It dosen't happen often". It dosen't happen at all.

Not going to happen while the world is watching. When the aid ceases, so does the attention. If Haitians want change, now would be the time to do it because you know darned well if some other nation makes changes, the whiners will be out in full voice.

 

[darkbeaver]

Not going to happen while the world is watching. When the aid ceases, so does the attention. If Haitians want change, now would be the time to do it because you know darned well if some other nation makes changes, the whiners will be out in full voice.

I'll guess that when the attention ceases so does the aid. Aid as a construct of attention for purposes of discussion. If? I'll bet in a poll every Hatian would indicate their desire for change and in every case self rule would be the preferred vehicle, by virtue of it's being the only vehicle. Hati will not make its own decisions now anymore than it has in the recent past. The whiners will be waltzdizzkneed away as always, and find themselves in thread wars where they rant away those dissenting braincells.:lol:

 

[Colpy]

From CBC News:

U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates is sending a ship to Haiti's main port to help remove debris that has blocked the delivery of supplies as the U.S. ramps up its relief efforts in the country.
Gates, speaking in India, said the ship would carry cranes and could help get the port back in operation within a week or two.
Relief workers have said the damaged port has prevented large ships from docking and stymied the delivery of food and emergency supplies to victims of last week's earthquake.
Bottlenecks at the damaged harbour and at the capital's airport continue to make it difficult to distribute supplies
About 2,200 U.S. marines have joined 9,000 soldiers who were already on the ground. Helicopters have been dropping food off at distribution points.
The U.S. military had been criticized for its organization of the single-runway airport at Port-au-Prince, with some complaining about how it was prioritizing flights.
But the U.S. air force said Tuesday it had raised the facility's daily capacity to 180 flights, from 30 before the quake.

Sounds to me like the Americans are doing a fine job.

 

[MHz]

You see...did I say the US wouldn't use politics? I am speaking logically and the US and Cuba do not get along. I said both countries would start pointing fingers...did I not say that? I also said Cuba could "for better or worse" decide what shipments will be shipped.

Let the UN handle it? Are you serious? The UN cannot handle a disaster. They have never been able to handle a crisis on their own. The 50 or so nations that are on the ground seem to be getting the problem under control without UN interference. What is the UN except a gathering of foreign politicians? There are about 200K dead and as a Doctor said now there are about 100K seriously injured. That is a massive disaster that nobody was ready for so it is going to take time.

I understood your point in the first post. Your solution, scratch that idea even though the freight would move faster. You contention is that Cuba would undermine a US operation because of petty grievances (compared to Haiti). I don't believe that BTW.
In the interest in the welfare of the recipients of the aid perhaps the US should remove herself then. I'm sure other Nations could fill in, air traffic control is not a talent that is unique to the US. I didn't say Cuba would insist on 'working with the US', they would be providing a 'port' facility, they would most likely let a trusted civilian aid agency control the cargo priority, ie hospital supplies over security.

 

[EagleSmack]

I understood your point in the first post. Your solution, scratch that idea even though the freight would move faster. You contention is that Cuba would undermine a US operation because of petty grievances (compared to Haiti). I don't believe that BTW.

I am saying it could happen. Chavez is already undermining the US with petty grievences. What makes Castro any different?

Is it known that supplies will move faster if we stock them in Cuba? Cuba has better port facilities than Florida or the DR?

In the interest in the welfare of the recipients of the aid perhaps the US should remove herself then.

Just bail on the whole thing? Take all of our toys people and aid and go home? You think the Haitians would mind so you can thump your chest even more?

I'm sure other Nations could fill in, air traffic control is not a talent that is unique to the US. I didn't say Cuba would insist on 'working with the US', they would be providing a 'port' facility, they would most likely let a trusted civilian aid agency control the cargo priority, ie hospital supplies over security.

Cuba let a trusted aid control their port facility. Please.

Don't worry MHz...in the end our role in Haiti will be diminished by folks like you so you just have to bear the facts for a little while longer. Then in the end you can say we didn't do anything and/or we screwed it all up.

 

[lone wolf]

Is Canada opening her borders?

Canada is making things easier....

Canada relaxes immigration rules for Haitians

 

[MHz]

Sounds to me like the Americans are doing a fine job.

In the meantime (2 weeks) the sailors would just use smaller boats would they not?
Miami is full of fast boats that only need shallow water. Think of the advertising for the manufacturers, more than pay for actual running expenses.
Hope the US isn't sneaking (falsely diverting)any flights into their new military bases thanks to Norway.

 

[AnnaG]

6.1 isn't a light aftershock.

The energy of 6.1 is about the equivalent of 1 Mton of TNT.

A 5. EQ is about the same as 32Kton of TNT
5.5 would be about 80 Kton
6 is a bit more than 1 Mton
6.5 is about 5 Mtons
7 is about 32 Mtons of TNT energy

Here's some info on the Richter scale for those that think it is a linear scale (it isn't):

Richter magnitude scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AnnaG]

I'll guess that when the attention ceases so does the aid. Aid as a construct of attention for purposes of discussion. If? I'll bet in a poll every Hatian would indicate their desire for change and in every case self rule would be the preferred vehicle, by virtue of it's being the only vehicle. Hati will not make its own decisions now anymore than it has in the recent past. The whiners will be waltzdizzkneed away as always, and find themselves in thread wars where they rant away those dissenting braincells.:lol:

You can give people a hand up and then you should leave them to decide whether they want to do anything with it. If they don't they should be left alone; if they do use it, they should be left alone. Nannying them just makes them more dependent and resentful.

 

[lone wolf]

It's chiefly about how to better help the Haitians. The picture of the airport made it clear that there is very little which can be done to improve the efficiency of that airfield. The ports aren't equipped for the tonnage coming in.

One improvement that would double the airport's ability to handle arrivals and departures:

 

[MHz]

I am saying it could happen. Chavez is already undermining the US with petty grievences. What makes Castro any different?

Please don't act like your government doesn't bad mouth both Nations at every opportunity, real or imagined.

Is it known that supplies will move faster if we stock them in Cuba? Cuba has better port facilities than Florida or the DR?

Not faster, I was saying there is going to be a need for a long term storage facility, the disaster will take years to recover from.

Just bail on the whole thing? Take all of our toys people and aid and go home? You think the Haitians would mind so you can thump your chest even more?

No you get to leave all that behind (other than the people who do not wish to stay), that is why it is called aid, your donation to the plight of the Haitian people in their time of need, no strings attached. Long term need would be via open contracts world wide.

Cuba let a trusted aid control their port facility. Please.

Just the aid cargo and transport of said cargo. The US could stick to her own ports (air and sea), no sense unloading and reloading when the whole trip is only a few 100 miles further

Don't worry MHz...in the end our role in Haiti will be diminished by folks like you so you just have to bear the facts for a little while longer. Then in the end you can say we didn't do anything and/or we screwed it all up.

So what does the long-term aid package look like (20 yrs)?

 

[EagleSmack]

Please don't act like your government doesn't bad mouth both Nations at every opportunity, real or imagined.

And please don't act like folks like you bad mouth the US at every opportunity.

Not faster, I was saying there is going to be a need for a long term storage facility, the disaster will take years to recover from.

Why Cuba? Why not the Dominican Republic?

No you get to leave all that behind (other than the people who do not wish to stay), that is why it is called aid, your donation to the plight of the Haitian people in their time of need, no strings attached. Long term need would be via open contracts world wide.

That does not really make much sense for the Haitian people now does it? Whether you like it or not...we're good at this. That is what makes you mad.

Just the aid cargo and transport of said cargo. The US could stick to her own ports (air and sea), no sense unloading and reloading when the whole trip is only a few 100 miles further

As I said... why Cuba? Why not the Dominican Republic? Jamaica? Puerto Rico?

So what does the long-term aid package look like (20 yrs)?

What has it been? Haiti is completely dependant on many nations for quite some time.

 

[MHz]

And please don't act like folks like you bad mouth the US at every opportunity.

Only on certain topics, they are not a benign entity in Haiti's history. Wasn't it about the same time that Cuba expelled the US that Haitians were deemed 'too stupid to rule themselves' by the US.

Why Cuba? Why not the Dominican Republic?

Why would they be excluded, they have the best land routes and their ports could off-load truck already loaded with aid. Hire the guys with the machetes to deliver the aid into all parts of Haiti.

That does not really make much sense for the Haitian people now does it? Whether you like it or not...we're good at this. That is what makes you mad.

Sure it does, if you cannot get along with the Haitians neighbors (who will be there for the long term) let go of some of the burden on you.
You have a habit of leaving 'aid delivery' less than finished. Afghanistan during the war with Russia. All aid came to a halt when the Russian troops left.
Are all refugees from Katrina fully settled in safe new homes?
Lets see how your generosity continues after the cameras have stopped rolling.

As I said... why Cuba? Why not the Dominican Republic? Jamaica? Puerto Rico?

All of them, should closeness be a factor. Cuba already had 3,000 medical personnel in Haiti before the quake, was the US aid effort before the quake much larger than that?

What has it been? Haiti is completely dependant on many nations for quite some time.

By design, the US was a planner of that very design.

 

[TenPenny]

Looking at the aerial pics on google maps, there appears to be almost NO port facility that could take any ship bigger than a fishing boat in P-au-P. No wonder it's tough to get any amount of aid in there by ship.

There is a nice oil slick in the pictures, too, by the way.

 

[AnnaG]

I think there'd be room for more landing strips there. I see relatively flat spots in a few places:

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[Risus]

I think there'd be room for more landing strips there. I see relatively flat spots in a few places:

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According to Global News, Canada is working on opening a new landing strip near Los Palmos.

 

[TenPenny]

I just saw on 'the Daily Planet' on the discovery network, tomorrow they'll be interviewing the head air traffic controller in P au P.
Tonight they were showing the canadians loading a cc17
Right now, they're pushing over 100 flights a day in/out of there.

 

[lone wolf]

I just saw on 'the Daily Planet' on the discovery network, tomorrow they'll be interviewing the head air traffic controller in P au P.
Tonight they were showing the canadians loading a cc17
Right now, they're pushing over 100 flights a day in/out of there.

I hope the runway holds up. That airport is a museum piece.

 

[MHz]

If it holds until the sea ports are open it will have served it's purpose, any repairs needed could then be accomplished, twinning has been suggested but is that worthwhile if traffic goes back to 25 flights/day?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8472958.stm
The temporary housing shortage seems to be tents. Couldn't the containers that carry good on container ships be stacked and welded to provide protection when the danger is rain and wind. There are oodles of boxes that are due for retirement. Load them up with relief aid and when unloaded the container also stays. In return the freighter goes back and gets some brand new containers and anything unloaded from them is the good only, the container stays with the shipping company. Old freight cars could be used as shelter once they are secured to each other.
Underground housing might not be be advisable in an active quake zone.

 

[TenPenny]

If it holds until the sea ports are open it will have served it's purpose, any repairs needed could then be accomplished, twinning has been suggested but is that worthwhile if traffic goes back to 25 flights/day?
BBC News - Haiti to relocate 400,000 homeless outside capital
The temporary housing shortage seems to be tents. Couldn't the containers that carry good on container ships be stacked and welded to provide protection when the danger is rain and wind. There are oodles of boxes that are due for retirement. Load them up with relief aid and when unloaded the container also stays. In return the freighter goes back and gets some brand new containers and anything unloaded from them is the good only, the container stays with the shipping company. Old freight cars could be used as shelter once they are secured to each other.
Underground housing might not be be advisable in an active quake zone.

There are various people who turn containers into living spaces...it's not that far fetched an idea. THey'd be stinkin friggin hot in the sun, though.