Gay Rights And The Bible
- Thread starter Liberalman
- Start date
Uh...yeah, yeah, I knew that...actually I realized after I posted that I didn't do the usual digging further into the thread to find the context. Boy is my face red. But, if you we're serious Cliffy, that's what I would say to you no doubt. Allow me to slink away if you don't mind kind sir.;-)
Thank goodness someone else wondered about it. I thought I was too tired to understand or something. It's incomprehensible.
Oh I was quite sure he meant to say '57 Stude, but the analogy was so poor, I decided to have a little fun with it:lol::lol::lol: Immediately after, I started to get premonitions of a deluge of 50 irate people calling me sacreligious, which I'm not particularly It's just that as far as the Bible is concerned I like to keep it fairly simple, got sort of skeptical after reading about Jonah surviving in the whale for 3 days and nights (not sure why "days and nights" as the inside of a whale would be pretty dark and would be just like one long night), so I'm not sure how Jonah was able to tell for sure how long he was in there for. :lol:
As I said, but I guess you missed, my arguments are formed from what I have read from others who spent time to research IN DEPTH about what they were writing. Comprehension isn't your long suit, is it? For someone saying this was clear, that was clear, and the other thing was clear, you can't even understand what people say NOW, and yet you expect others to accept that you know what Pittacus was saying a couple thousand years ago? That's just immensely hilarious.
Mine is based on evidence that many people have gleaned. You have nothing but your measly little opinion. Go away little boy, come back when you can comprehend big people stuff.
Here, try reading these:
Paden, William E. (2003). Interpreting the Sacred: Ways of Viewing Religion. Beacon Press.
Stace, Walter T. (1937, Reprinted 1975 by permission of MacMillan Publishing Co. Inc.). The Concept of Morals. New York: The MacMillan Company. chapters on Ethical Relativity and Unity of Morals
Vaux, Laurence (1583, Reprinted by The Chetham Society in 1885). A Catechisme / OR / CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE. Manchester, England: The Chetham Society.
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The Captain like s to pick fights but rarely has any thing to add to back up his position. He sounds like a religious person in that you question an unquestioned belief of his in something and you get a knee jerk reaction without evidence to back it up, just sarcastic rebukes.
hehehe I thought so. But I was trying to give him the opportunity to at least retort with something substantial. All he can do is insult the opponent, though.
Oh, "captain", you might also try reading Joseph Campbell, (!988 ) The Power Of Myth, Doubleday.
Oh, "captain", you might also try reading Joseph Campbell, (!988 ) The Power Of Myth, Doubleday.
Anyway, I am glad we live in a society that has more-or-less separated state from church. Religion has more than enough influence on people as it is. People can't seem to believe that the gods they say they believe in can handle things. They have to prejudge, judge, dictate over others for themselves.
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What ever makes you think that god and the bible have anything in common? The bible was written by men for their own purposes. And whose god? All religions profess to have the direct line to the one true god and are willing to kill all who disagree with them. I doubt that if indeed there is such an entity as god that he/she would want anything to do with most organized religions and most certainly not the ones that infest the western world.
I interpreted some of the things Jesus was supposed to have said to indicate that he was against organized religion. But then again, Alleywayz says the evangelical movement (the one held in Starbucks) is not a religion but a spiritual movement (gosh that word always reminds me of a bowel movement). It seems to me, when a bunch of people get together to agree on their version of god and yell "Hallelujah!" that that constitutes a religion.
Cliffy: Spiritual movement, bowel movement all smell about the same if you dig a bit.
People I know that have a bad case of religion just say you have to believe or you have to have faith whenever I ask a simple question about their idea of god and what he does. I still never even figured out how all the bible thumpers are so sure that god is a he and nor a she when none of them has seen one. I told several of them that since my forefathers are from Missouri when they bring their god over for a coffee I'll believe. So far no god has showed up and I even offered to buy,
People I know that have a bad case of religion just say you have to believe or you have to have faith whenever I ask a simple question about their idea of god and what he does. I still never even figured out how all the bible thumpers are so sure that god is a he and nor a she when none of them has seen one. I told several of them that since my forefathers are from Missouri when they bring their god over for a coffee I'll believe. So far no god has showed up and I even offered to buy,
I can certainly understand your viewpoint on this. And from my viewpoint, religion consists of needless man-made rituals, and authoritarian leadership.
That's why evangelicals keep it casual. Stay clear of rituals, with exception of the things like baptism which we obviously think is a good thing, for countless reasons.
Truth is also Cliffy, when you see these people publicly gathering, don't be afraid to be a spectator. Its a relaxed atmosphere, usually goodies afterwards. Try asking tough questions. At the very least you will no doubt gain a better knowledge of Christianity.
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"A covenant means an agreement, and the events of September 11, 2001 highlighted two very different kinds of agreement between God and his servants. The highjackers who crashed themselves and other passengers into the Manhattan towers did so because they were assured that any man dying in battle for God (jihad) was immediately guaranteed all the joys of heaven. What is the meaning of the covenant that Jesus made with his disciples at the last supper? "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood" (Luke 22:20). Jesus was referring to a contrast Jeremiah the prophet made between the old covenant and Jesus' new covenant. "The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
The old covenant was solemnly sealed in blood at the foot of Mount Sinai. "Moses took the book of the covenant, and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, 'All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.' Moses took the blood (from the sacrifices he had offered, Exodus 24:4-6) and dashed it on the people, and said, 'See the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words'" (Exodus 24:7-8). This was not the giving of the moral law of the ten commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) which were "written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18 - these are wrongly translated as "covenant" - the Hebrew is "tablets of witness"). The covenant that Moses sealed was more like the constitution that the people agreed to live by.
The content of this covenant is given as "ordinances that you shall set before them" (Exodus 21:1-23:33). And it is obvious that these ordinances for their life in the desert and in the promised land do not apply to us. There are rules about buying and selling slaves (Exodus 21:1-11, 20-27), pre-marital sex (Exodus 22:16), and the death penalty for striking or cursing one's parents (21:15-17). Some of the ordinances are similar to our civil law for manslaughter (Exodus21:12-14), and there are rules for liability and restitution (Exodus 21:28-22:1, 5-15). The instructions about the annual feasts to be observed (Exodus 23:14-21) lost their relevance with the weekly communion service that Jesus instituted.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus quoted six items of Old Testament civil law, and in each case said "But I say to you" (Matthew 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38, 43). The point is that the civil law that constituted the Jewish people in the Old Testament is not in any way binding on us. Christians obey the laws of whichever country they live in (Romans 13:1-7). But in contrast to the civil and criminal law of any country, the new covenant works in a totally different way. As Jeremiah saw so clearly, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD; I will put my law within them (obviously referring to the Holy Spirit), and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33).
The Old Testament moral law is quite different from a nation's civil and criminal law. It gives us ten categories of moral judgment (which have very little specific content) which are found among all nations. Jesus said they could be summed up in the call to love God with all our heart and love our neighbor as ourselves. But these two requirements are not rules with penalties for non-compliance as found in any government civil and criminal law.
What was so new about the new covenant was that Jesus told us we could look to the Holy Spirit to work in our hearts what we could never do by self-effort. We would be changed from the inside rather than by burdensome Pharisaic rules. This was why Paul was so upset when the Church in Galatia was persuaded to go back into legalism. "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? (as if a witch had cast a spell on them). Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?" So he pleads with them to continue in their freedom from rules. "For freedom the Messiah has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" (Galatians 5:1).
Jesus's new covenant is an agreement whereby the Holy Spirit is guaranteed to give us all the wisdom, and inspiration, and moral change, and love for God and our neighbor that we need and cannot work up by our own efforts. Which is why John remembers that at the last supper the main topic that Jesus taught was the work of the Spirit (John 13:34, 14:12, 16-17, 26, 15:1-11 where the Spirit is the sap in the Vine, 15:26, 16:7-15).
Does this suggest that in the new covenant life in the Spirit there are no rules? The only rules are the rules that we need for our freedom. If we want to be free to enjoy hockey or bridge, football or yacht racing, we need rules for the game. If we want to be free and safe to engage in mountain climbing there are very strict rules to abide by. But these are not universal rules for all others to live by. I have type 2 Diabetes, which is easily controlled with a small pill a day, and I need the rule not to eat sugar. But I don't tell others to keep off desserts.
Jesus gave no rules for the conduct of the communion service. But we can make rules for how the bread and wine is to be served. People can kneel or stand, or sit in their pews. Anglicans use special vestments, and with a common cup the wine must be at least 16% to be safe from passing germs and viruses. But none of these rules are universal. Their only purpose is to make possible our freedom as a community to hear and obey the Word of God. As Jesus said "If you continue in my Word, you are truly my disciples, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31).
This immense freedom ("the freedom of the glory of the children of God" - the old translation was better "the glorious liberty of the children of God", Romans 8:21) means that we must watch what rules we make for ourselves, and what rules people make for us. Some people bind themselves by rules that destroy their freedom rather than make it possible. And in the past some churches have added all sorts of rules to the communion service that bring people into bondage."
http://www.brow.on.ca/Sermons/NewOld.htm
Alley,
I used to ride with the Quesnel chapter of the Christian Riders for several years. Went to plenty of their gatherings, Barbi-ques and camp fire sing songs. They really didn't like tough questions. We had a mutual agreement to stay away from debate, as it made them feel uncomfortable. I have also been to services with Pentecostal, United, Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, Mormon, JWs and the Emissaries of Divine Light (I know they are not strictly christian but very interesting none the less). I have spent hundreds of hours in conversation with people of all faiths. I think I have had my fair share of exposure to Christianity.
Cannuck a word of advice please. If you make you post more concise and arranged neater, I would be more likely to actually read it.
I think that's great, good for you for listening. But why haven't you received the basic message? And what if the rapture happens in your life time, will the carnal part of you try to explain it away?
It's simple, Mr.Tax; the Bible says this god made man in his own image. "Man", "his"; see? The way I see it, gods are "its" - bits of ideas spewed onto pages in books.
Because I have had my own revelations.
I have a friend who was a minister, had a church and did all that ministerial stuff. One day he had a near death experience and he had a conversation with god. Guess what god told him. Religion, the bible and all that stuff was just a bunch of BS made up by people and that his whole life up to that point had been a lie. He never went back to his church.
I told him he was a chicken chyt. He had an obligation to his congregation to go back there and tell them the truth.