Criticism of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity is not Anti-Semitism

[Colpy]

I disagree. This would be like saying valid criticism of America is a visceral dislike of Christianity, or a valid criticism of Saudi Arabia is a visceral dislike of Islam. Its just not true. You can separate your criticisms of the state from the dominant religion of that state.

That's all eao is saying.

I'm surprised so many people are jumping on him for that. It's actually a pretty unbiased and logical approach that more secular states like France and Germany employ when they try and improve their own state methodologies.

You completely sidestepped the thrust of my argument.

As far as I know, in recent memory, there have been NO war crimes or crimes against humanity committed by the state of Israel. It is, at least, a subject still up for debate.

But EAO's question totally ignores that, and is based on the assumption that Israel is guilty.........while he pretends to be posting a real question, he is in reality posting yet another attack on the Jewish state.

In case you haven't noticed, EAO has an extremely unhealthy obsession with the state of Israel. China, Iran, North Korea.......three of the worst human rights abusers on earth, all rate his enthusiastic defense.....to say nothing of the genocidal lunatics of Hamas and Hezbollah.....while Israel is the focus of his attention, his accusation, his hysterical outrage......

EAO has a problem........and I suspect it is Jew hatred.......

 

[Just the Facts]

Although you might have referenced this article in another debate somewhere on this website, I never saw it until just now. Sometimes I am here on a regular basis and at other times I don't visit this website for weeks. So I don't see every post directed at me. I certainly don't recall seeing this article previously and I'll deal with that issue and your allegations regarding me specifically next.

OK. Consider yourself reminded.

An out of context quote in a pro-Israeli opinion piece is not even hearsay, let alone a fact. In the context of a pro-Israeli opinion piece Goldstone's comment is relatively meaningless. When exactly did Goldstone make this comment and in what context. I noticed the article provides neither references and for all I know, could be entirely invented. If you could find the original source of that quote in context, then Goldstone's quote might mean something.

If you applied the same critical scrutiny to the evidence you present to us as fact, I would have great respect and admiration for you. If you have any evidence whatsoever that this interview was a fraud, present it, and I will never refer to it again. That's how it's done, when a fact is proven to actually not be fact, one ceases treating it as fact. I trust you will do the same from here on in.

I doubt Goldstone would claim his fact finding mission didn't find any facts. Its possible that in context, Goldstone was saying that his report wasn't meant to be a formal legal document that could be used to indict or convict anyone. It was a fact finding mission, nothing more. His conclusions were based on the facts, as supported by evidence. His report is not sufficient to convict anyone of a war crime, but its findings are sufficient to conclude war crimes were committed, warrant further investigation and he called on the governments on both sides to launch official investigations and judicial proceedings, where specific individuals could be held accountable for specific events (war crimes) as detailed in his report.

Convicting someone of a war crime would require accusing someone of something specific in a court of law. Also, to be fair and just, the accused must be allowed to face their accusers and defend themselves. Goldstone's report doesn't accuse anyone specifically of war crimes and since Israel refused to participate in the fact finding mission or defend specific allegations, the report cannot be considered complete or prove that a specific person is guilty of a war crime. The report only concludes that specific war crimes were committed during specific events. In other words enough information to justify investigations into the specific events in order to determine responsibility and make formal allegations against specific people in a court of law.

Exactly....anecdotal reports and allegations. You seemed to be amused by me referring to the Goldstone report as anecdotal reports by Gaza citizens. I made it clear that I referred to it as such based on the words of Goldstone himself.

You referred to it as ""beyond reasonable doubt" certainty". Upon what did you base that assertion?

To draw the conclusion that I must be anti-Semitic because I didn't reply to something I never saw is ridiculous.

I agree completely, as I previously stated. Even in light of all the evidence, I am still inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, and have never gone beyond saying "I strongly suspect" you are anti-semetic. Even at that, the strong suspicion was never based on you not replying to something you never saw. Yet you twist my words and accuse me of levelling "allegations" against you. It's almost as though your comment here is "based on the premise that if you throw enough crap at someone, some of its bound to stick, even if it is completely unfounded, invented or imagined."

This is exactly the type of tactic employed by Israeli apologists to discredit legitimate criticism of Israel. Its based on the premise that if you throw enough crap at someone, some of its bound to stick, even if it is completely unfounded, invented or imagined.

I've backed up everything I said. I look forward to you doing the same.

EAO: ...if you throw enough crap at someone, some of its bound to stick, even if it is completely unfounded, invented or imagined.


Also do you agree with JTF that not posting a rebuttal to an article proves they are ignoring it and therefore leads to a conclusion that someone is anti-Semtic?

JTF never said that. Good example of the throwing of crap, though.

 

[Goober]

CB's posts in this thread make my point. If your opinion is more critical Israel than his, you are a Joo-hating Nazi. His posts usually add little or nothing of value. Any attempt to challenge his opinion usually devolves into demeaning and forum rule violating name calling and slander. His posts on this thread contain examples of straw men, invented quotes and name calling slander. CB has an arrogant delusion that his statements alone are authoritative proof. I used to debate CB, but I now tend ignore him.

To Retired Soldier or anyone else who accuses me of being anti-Semitic. Please quote one (or more) of my posts (rather than make stuff up like CB) to make your point. Explain why you judge that/those post(s) to be anti-Semitic.

BTW, I have to take off for a while, so don't expect an immediate response.

Well what about your posting that the Media is Jewish Controlled - What would that be Fify??????????????

 

[Just the Facts]

For the record I voted no. Legitimate criticism of Israel policy is not anti semitism.

Except....that's not what the poll says. The poll is a loaded question, it presupposes that Israel's Human Rights Record is worthy of criticism. I suspect that's what Goober meant when he said the question is BS, and I know for sure that's what I meant when I said I had no choice but to vote a resounding YES.

BS, I posted it to you when you challenged me to prove the Goldstone report was junk. You demanded that I reference section page and paragraph, to prove I'd read it. I did, and I did as you requested.

You simply ignored my posts, because you couldn't counter then, nor could you argue with Goldstone's own words.

Now THAT is interesting. And to think I gave him the benefit of the doubt....again! <shakes head>

Maybe if I have time I'll go through the archives and see what I can find....if there hasn't been some "housekeeping" done already that is!

I think you got the title wrong? It reads: Is criticism of Israel's human rights record is anti-Semitic

I gave it a look over and ftfy: It should read: I hate Joos! I hate Joos! I hate Joos! How bout Yoos?

[Yes] [No] [Maybe]

LOL! Damn you I damn near choked to death with laughter!

I'm back. I see no one here can reference any post I've made as an example of anti-Semitism. That would make this post yet another example of an inability to differentiate between legitimate criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism.

Lol, that's hilarious. What happened to:

Could not posting a rebuttal to someone's post also mean they never saw that person's post?

Strict time limits apply, I see. When convenient. lol

 

[gopher]

''
Quote: Originally Posted by gopher

It is monumental stupidity for anyone to say that the left hates Israel when the overwhelming majority of Jews identify in the USA and Europe as leftist.
​

Wrong thread moron, and might I add, you really should learn the difference between the left as in democrat and progressive. Or learn to read and actually read the article. That way your post on that subject wouldn't look as stupid as it does. Last edited by CDNBear; 16 hours ago at 11:21 AM..''


--------------

I'm sure it's not quite as stupid as your idiotic reply. As always keeping your limited brains up your stinkhole and smelling it as if it was roses.

The fact is that the left continues to get criticized as anti-Semitic in the USA but the truth is that Jews in this country are leftist. That wasn't exactly the issue in that article but it is of consequence in the discussions we have on the subject.

 

[petros]

There is real Anti-Semitism and then there is the Abraham Foxman ADL (American Dipsh*t League) version of Anti-Semitism.

Which one has a hefty working budget and which one doesn't?

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

There is real Anti-Semitism and then there is the Abraham Foxman ADL (American Dipsh*t League) version of Anti-Semitism.

Which one has a hefty working budget and which one doesn't?

I think that there's guys like Foxman around because daily we hear from people who will attack Christianity and Judaism, but are decidedly quiet about Islam.

I guess that's because the worst that Foxman might do is sue you, or boycott you while those other guys might put a jihad on your ass.

Personally, I don't like speech police or defamation leagues. If you want to say the Holocaust is a lie that is your idiotic opinion. Its just not fact.

 

[Bar Sinister]

I have noted a disturbing tendency in some politicians and media types to confuse legitimate criticism of a nation's policies as hatred toward that nation. This even applies to their own country. For example daring to criticize George Bush and his addlepated policies earned the Dixie Chicks the ire of the US right and the demand from some that they leave the country. In Canada both Peter Lougheed and Ralph Klein referred to critics as "un-Albertan." What these people do not seem to understand is that legitimate criticism of any policy is the right of every individual in a democratic society. In fact it is not only a right; it is a duty. Behaving like a sheep does not strengthen democracy. Hatred simply does not enter into it.

Also criticism of a nation's policies and actions does not mean that I have to hate that country. I did not approve of French nuclear testing in the Pacific, but it did not mean that I hated France. I don't approve of a number of policies of the US government, but the US is one of my favourite countries to visit. I could go on, but you get the picture.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

What these people do not seem to understand is that legitimate criticism of any policy is the right of every individual in a democratic society. In fact it is not only a right; it is a duty. Behaving like a sheep does not strengthen democracy. Hatred simply does not enter into it.

I actually agree with what you are saying. Where do you stand on Canadian Human Rights Tribunals?

 

[Cliffy]

I actually agree with what you are saying. Where do you stand on Canadian Human Rights Tribunals?

I think they should investigate themselves. They are an affront to everything Canada stands for but stands for everything Canada lies down for.

 

[CDNBear]

I disagree. This would be like saying valid criticism of America is a visceral dislike of Christianity, or a valid criticism of Saudi Arabia is a visceral dislike of Islam. Its just not true. You can separate your criticisms of the state from the dominant religion of that state.

Colpy is right, you completely misconstrued what he was saying.

That's all eao is saying.

No, what EAO is saying is, he hates Joos and wants a free pass to demonize Israel.

I'm surprised so many people are jumping on him for that.

You obviously have the same reading infliction EAO has. Simply gloss over what you don't like or doesn't fit your agenda.

Not that I'm surprised, you've tipped your hand a few times, but even then, I don't think of you in the same lines as EAO. Yet.

It's actually a pretty unbiased and logical approach that more secular states like France and Germany employ when they try and improve their own state methodologies.

But EAO isn't unbiased or logical. He ignores documented fact and prefers to believe that anecdotal stories, by actual Hamas ministry employees is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

That is neither logical nor unbiased.

Except....that's not what the poll says.

I know what it says. And I don't think for one minute that in the long drawn out war that Israeli Forces have never crossed that line. I fully believe that the majority of stories about human shields and the like is pure BS. But I've been in a war zone, the line between righteous and criminal can get blurry. So I have no doubts that at some point in time, war crimes have been committed.

When you are fighting for your very survival, QSO, RoE, and the Marque of Queensbury rules mean FA.

The poll is a loaded question, it presupposes that Israel's Human Rights Record is worthy of criticism.

I realize that and I still stand by my answer. Everything EAO spouts is loaded and is based on the fact that he has tried and convicted Israel in his head, no matter how much commonsense or fact you throw back at him. That is why he's a bigot.

Now THAT is interesting. And to think I gave him the benefit of the doubt....again! <shakes head>

And likely why he hasn't replied to that challenge.

Maybe if I have time I'll go through the archives and see what I can find....if there hasn't been some "housekeeping" done already that is!

For the parts I challenged him on, I have already cut the specific posts from the bookmarked pages and await the lie that he has never said it.

I bookmark remarkably stupid, ignorant or otherwise useful posts, that contain comments that I can and will feed to the person when they make false claims in the future. EAO was one of the first people I started to catalog. Because he made claims that he was a pacifist, but would later justify the acts of groups like Hezbollah as freedom fighters. Or make claims that Hamas was very honest, and more believable then Israel.

When the Goldstone report came out, and EAO posted a thread on it, I responded. He claimed I couldn't comment legitimately, because I hadn't even read it, then challenged me to post page, section and paragraph numbers.

I did just that. Complete with a break down of the BS in each of the anecdotes I took apart.

I also posted summaries by legal experts as the lacking of objective investigation skills and ethics in the Goldstone report. Later on as Goldstone started to waver, I posted his comment about it being a starting point, not a document that would stand up in court.

EAO ignored it and went on to mention how I was now on ignore. How convenient.

Lol, that's hilarious. What happened to:

Strict time limits apply, I see. When convenient. lol

You expected something different?

''
Quote: Originally Posted by gopher

I'm sure it's not quite as stupid as your idiotic reply. As always keeping your limited brains up your stinkhole and smelling it as if it was roses.

The fact is that the left continues to get criticized as anti-Semitic in the USA but the truth is that Jews in this country are leftist. That wasn't exactly the issue in that article but it is of consequence in the discussions we have on the subject.

Still the wrong thread moron. You can say all the childish crap you want about me, but at the end of the day, you still aren't on topic and you're still in the wrong thread.

 

[petros]

I think that there's guys like Foxman around because daily we hear from people who will attack Christianity and Judaism, but are decidedly quiet about Islam.

I guess that's because the worst that Foxman might do is sue you, or boycott you while those other guys might put a jihad on your ass.

Personally, I don't like speech police or defamation leagues. If you want to say the Holocaust is a lie that is your idiotic opinion. Its just not fact.

Do some background checking and you'll find this guy and his crew go over the top more often than not.

There is nothing pretty about propaganda and paranoia combined especially when it used to empower already crazy people.

They are no better than the screwhead Imams who run websites and issue news releases.

 

[CDNBear]

Do some background checking and you'll find this guy and his crew go over the top more often than not.

The ADL is literally garbage now. Much like the HRC's, it's gone way past a useful mandate and become a free speech silencer, period.

There is nothing pretty about propaganda and paranoia combined especially when it used to empower already crazy people.

There is so much truth in that statement, profoundly exampled in the continuous onslaught of daily diatribes by the Joo haters here at CC.

They are no better than the screwhead Imams who run websites and issue news releases.

Agreed, both the Joo haters and the asshats like Foxman, are simply, well, asshats.

 

[petros]

Things that feed off each other don't last long and die miserable deaths. Speaking of hats and crazy people never ever discount those who wear 37.9L asshats.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Do some background checking and you'll find this guy and his crew go over the top more often than not.

There is nothing pretty about propaganda and paranoia combined especially when it used to empower already crazy people.

They are no better than the screwhead Imams who run websites and issue news releases.

Really? How many heads have they cut off? Have they burned any Countries down over cartoons? As I said before, I am a free speech guy. Your comparison is laughable. I'd take propaganda any day rather than worry someone might murder my family or cut my head off while I was kicking and screaming for mercy.

Fact is the other side uses propaganda, paranoia and brutality to further its agenda,and that's why the pussies are scared of them and always look to the lesser threat to blame.

 

[CDNBear]

Really? How many heads have they cut off? Have they burned any Countries down over cartoons? As I said before, I am a free speech guy. Your comparison is laughable. I'd take propaganda any day rather than worry someone might murder my family or cut my head off while I was kicking and screaming for mercy.

It's all about terror Mark. Whether you fear being sued, or having a jihad placed upon you. Fear is the weapon of choice.

Fact is the other side uses propaganda, paranoia and brutality to further its agenda,and that's why the pussies are scared of them and always look to the lesser threat to blame.

Although I fundamentally agree with you. Both sides use all three of those methods of getting what they want.

One ends up on YouTube, condemned, the other the evening news, glorified.

Neither side can claim superiority.

 

[petros]

Really? How many heads have they cut off? Have they burned any Countries down over cartoons? As I said before, I am a free speech guy. Your comparison is laughable. I'd take propaganda any day rather than worry someone might murder my family or cut my head off while I was kicking and screaming for mercy.

Fact is the other side uses propaganda, paranoia and brutality to further its agenda,and that's why the pussies are scared of them and always look to the lesser threat to blame.

Did you completely skip the paranoia on purpose?


Is an 8 year old black kid throwing rocks at a Jewish school bus Anti-Semitic or is it just a kid throwing rocks at a random school bus?

 

[CDNBear]

Is an 8 year old black kid throwing rocks at a Jewish school bus Anti-Semitic or is it just a kid throwing rocks at a random school bus?

I guess that depends on what he's yelling, what his intent is and whether or not he's surrounded by a hundred others doing the exact same thing.

 

[petros]

I guess that depends on what he's yelling, what his intent is and whether or not he's surrounded by a hundred others doing the exact same thing.

No.The truth of the matter was the kid was just throwing rocks at a random school bus but to ADL it was anti-semitic and painted the kid up to be a gangster.

 

[CDNBear]

No.The truth of the matter was the kid was just throwing rocks at a random school bus but to ADL it was anti-semitic and painted the kid up to be a gangster.

Got a link to the story?