Canadian Democracy - Takes another hit under Harper

[Redmonton_Rebel]

Chretien has everything to do with it- Liberals will slam Harper but defend Chretien - This was posted for Liberals that think their party and Leaders are so different. The corruption and scandals under Chretien so far outweigh Harpers time in office.

Now the bulk bill are an atrocious abuse of Parliament- Chretien did it- Martin the same - All harper did was expand upon it - but in a way that I find reprehensible.

Pulling out a strawman like Chretien to excuse Steven Harper is absurd. Steven Harper isn't forced to live down to the worst examples of how to run a government in this country, he chose that path.

The Toronto Sun ran an article that was fact checked to the source. Layton was caught in a Toronto rub-n-tug, by Toronto Police.

Layton and the NDP threatened to sue the Sun.

Oddly enough, nothing ever came of it. It went cold even before he fell ill again.

Vexatious litigation, by any party, to subvert Freedom of the Press, is abhorrent at best.

And you should note what Goober posted above.

I'm sure you see it that way. I admit, I completely disagree with much of the CPC platform, and much of the actions since they acquired a majority. But I'm not blind enough to say they are the only party to have acted this way. Nor am I naive or stupid enough to believe that any party is any better.

Provide a link, so far all you've given is your version on it and you're the nob who tried to tell me the Pyramids are a larger engineering project than the oil sands.

 

[lone wolf]

Pulling out a strawman like Chretien to excuse Steven Harper is absurd. Steven Harper isn't forced to live down to the worst examples of how to run a government in this country, he chose that path.



Provide a link, so far all you've given is your version on it and you're the nob who tried to tell me the Pyramids are a larger engineering project than the oil sands.

How much of the oil sands project could be done by manual labour?

 

[Goober]

Provide a link, so far all you've given is your version on it and you're the nob who tried to tell me the Pyramids are a larger engineering project than the oil sands.

Guess who got out of bed on the wrong side. Not me- Oh yes- LW answered your question - before you start throwing BS take the time to consider the question.

 

[L Gilbert]

Last time I checked democracy was alive and well in Canada. You are still allowed to vote, voice your opinion and live where you want. Just because you do not agree with the current party in power does not mean democracy is in trouble. The cons have a majority government so they can do pretty much as they please for the next three years. If enough people don't like what they see there will be a change of government. So far there is little to excite most people in the other parties, both of which are about the best vote getters the cons have at the moment. This may change after the Libs have their election or it might not. Time will tell.
It is entirely possible that Harper will be the catalyst that gets whiners off their fat lazy asses and go and vote. You gotta admit that the voting numbers are pathetic.

Elections days are the only times we have democracy. The rest of the time we live in an oligarchic plutocracy. We have been for many many decades.

 

[PoliticalNick]

Elections days are the only times we have democracy. The rest of the time we live in an oligarchic plutocracy. We have been for many many decades.

Even our elections aren't truly a democracy. We get to vote on shills put forward by those corporations and persons who have something to gain from having 'their' people in the seat. There aren't really any independent candidates anymore and the rest are forced to toe the party line which is set by their big donors.

Case in point: during the last election in the US the biggest banks and investment firms (AIG, Bear Sterns, Morgan Stanley) donated almost equal amounts to both presidential candidates. They really didn't care who won because they held both to obligation arising from this huge support of their campaign.

 

[Goober]

Pulling out a strawman like Chretien to excuse Steven Harper is absurd. Steven Harper isn't forced to live down to the worst examples of how to run a government in this country, he chose that path.
.

And comparing previous PM's is reasonable it would be needed - how else can a person compare - This is not just slam Harper-

 

[Redmonton_Rebel]

How much of the oil sands project could be done by manual labour?

You're kidding right.

The only way to make money on oil sands development is to process huge amounts of bitumen, which emits huge amounts of CO2 and leaves millions of tons of toxic waste. You can't shovel the stuff into a wheel barrel, cook it up over your gas grill and sell it from a roadside stand, it requires expensive and extensive facilities, and that's to mine, process, ship, refine the material to end up with a marketable product and then you have to store all the waste.

It's hard to think of a more polluting activity at this time, and yet it's being presented as this wonderful opportunity for us all to live the good life.

And comparing previous PM's is reasonable it would be needed - how else can a person compare - This is not just slam Harper-

Go ahead and use Chretien as a bad example, but he's been gone for almost a decade from politics and Harper is still PM and still abusing his power in the name of his interests.

Saying Chretien was a bad leader doesn't suddenly make what Steven Harper is doing right, honorable or even sane.

 

[lone wolf]

You're kidding right.

The only way to make money on oil sands development is to process huge amounts of bitumen, which emits huge amounts of CO2 and leaves millions of tons of toxic waste. You can't shovel the stuff into a wheel barrel, cook it up over your gas grill and sell it from a roadside stand, it requires expensive and extensive facilities, and that's to mine, process, ship, refine the material to end up with a marketable product and then you have to store all the waste.

It's hard to think of a more polluting activity at this time, and yet it's being presented as this wonderful opportunity for us all to live the good life.

:roll:You're kidding right?

I think you missed the entire scope of the question....

 

[Redmonton_Rebel]

:roll:You're kidding right?

I think you missed the entire scope of the question....

Which was?

 

[lone wolf]

Scroll back....

 

[Redmonton_Rebel]

Scroll back....

post number please, there's a lot of crap(bear ****) to sort through.

 

[L Gilbert]

lol.

 

[Redmonton_Rebel]

Guess who got out of bed on the wrong side. Not me- Oh yes- LW answered your question - before you start throwing BS take the time to consider the question.

What question would that be?

That the NDP is somehow stiffling debate in this country?

How are the two issues even related.

There's this bizarre belief in this country that questioning the Conservatives is somehow wrong now...I guess because they've spent so much time trying to cultivate an impression of infallibility. It's complete nonsense. The whole point of having an adversarial system of government is to allow the opposition to effectively criticize the sitting government, without that we don't really have political freedom in this country.

Elections days are the only times we have democracy. The rest of the time we live in an oligarchic plutocracy. We have been for many many decades.

But it's just a pagent, not the real thing isn't it?

For one day a year we get to pretend we have a say.

 

[L Gilbert]

But it's just a pagent, not the real thing isn't it?

It can seem to be that way. Depends upon who is elected into each voting area.

For one day a year we get to pretend we have a say.

1 day per year? That doesn't happen often.
Many people voting someone in or out is a bit more than pretending.

 

[lone wolf]

What question would that be?

That the NDP is somehow stiffling debate in this country?

How are the two issues even related.

There's this bizarre belief in this country that questioning the Conservatives is somehow wrong now...I guess because they've spent so much time trying to cultivate an impression of infallibility. It's complete nonsense. The whole point of having an adversarial system of government is to allow the opposition to effectively criticize the sitting government, without that we don't really have political freedom in this country.

Actually, the question was a lot simpler than your side-step. Pyramids vs oil sands in scope of engineering.

Anyone can dig a hole and haul stuff out. I'll be impressed with the engineering when a flag unfurls on the top of whatever structure needs a basement that big.

 

[Redmonton_Rebel]

Chretien has everything to do with it- Liberals will slam Harper but defend Chretien - This was posted for Liberals that think their party and Leaders are so different. The corruption and scandals under Chretien so far outweigh Harpers time in office.

Now the bulk bill are an atrocious abuse of Parliament- Chretien did it- Martin the same - All harper did was expand upon it - but in a way that I find reprehensible.

I think you'll find that even as wrong as what the Liberals did was it was much less planned and controlled than what's going on now. The one saving grace of the Liberals was the relatively chaotic nature of the party and government, think of Martin always manuevering behind the scenes to take the throne away from King John. Steven Harper has created a government that is much more monolithic and focused in its approach to taking then holding power in this country whatever the cost.

If you think that's in any way acceptable or appropriate to what this country stands for then we really don't have much to discuss.
I don't want to end up living in someone elses idea of an ideal one party state and as far as I'm concerned that's where we're heading if we let things continue to slid in Canada. Chretien is gone, the Liberals have received their well deserved rejection by Canadian voters and it's time for the same treatment for a Conservative leader and party who've repeated many of the same offenses in the name of their own interests.

To sum up, it doesn't matter how badly the Liberals abused the system, I care about the future not the past. I and I think many Canadians want the best possible future we can have and we're not going to get that from a man and a party who continue to lie to and cheat us.

If I'm forced to chose between the Liberals and the Conservatives I'll chose the NDP and thank god I don't live in the US where there is no real choice anymore between the two parties.

 

[L Gilbert]

If I'm forced to chose between the Liberals and the Conservatives I'll chose the NDP......

lol That sure makes sense.

 

[JLM]

and thank god I don't live in the US where there is no real choice anymore between the two parties.

And there is very little difference among three parties up here. It's the simalarities that are striking...............#1. Do anything to ensure longevity in power. #2. Do anything to build up their pension. #3. Do anything to ensure other perks.

 

[CDNBear]

Pulling out a strawman like Chretien to excuse Steven Harper is absurd.

It has never been meant to excuse Harper, just prove that the absurd complaints that "It's never been done before" are just that, absurd.

Provide a link, so far all you've given is your version on it and you're the nob who tried to tell me the Pyramids are a larger engineering project than the oil sands.

Why would I provide a link? You'll be an NDP shill whether I nailed the news paper articles to your head or not.

Oh, and BTW, the Pyramids were a bigger engineering project.

So is the largest petroleum engineering project in human history in Saudi Arabia, that you conveniently keep ignoring.

It's hard to think of a more polluting activity at this time, and yet it's being presented as this wonderful opportunity for us all to live the good life.

Actually, it's being presented as a resource intensive form of extracting oil needed to fuel our lives.

The entire process of extracting bitumen is an affront to my core environmental beliefs. But then the fact that I live in the real world comes to mind and I understand the trade off. You will never see me argue against enforcing environmental safety.

There's this bizarre belief in this country that questioning the Conservatives is somehow wrong now...

Where did you get that belief?

Maybe you should read the words in the posts, not the words you think are in the posts.

I think you'll find that even as wrong as what the Liberals did was it was much less planned and controlled than what's going on now. The one saving grace of the Liberals was the relatively chaotic nature of the party and government, think of Martin always manuevering behind the scenes to take the throne away from King John.

There you go, negating past unethical behavior. Simply because you don't like Harper, lol.

If you think that's in any way acceptable or appropriate to what this country stands for then we really don't have much to discuss.

You've already negated any discussion.

I don't want to end up living in someone elses idea of an ideal one party state and as far as I'm concerned that's where we're heading if we let things continue to slid in Canada.

And you think we want to live in your idea of a one party state?

I and I think many Canadians want the best possible future we can have and we're not going to get that from a man and a party who continue to lie to and cheat us.

That's why the NDP isn't the perfect party.

If I'm forced to chose between the Liberals and the Conservatives I'll chose the NDP...

I figured that out after your thrid post.

lol That sure makes sense.

It wasn't as if he kept it a secret, lol.

 

[petros]

Oh, and BTW, the Pyramids were a bigger engineering project.

So is the largest petroleum engineering project in human history in Saudi Arabia, that you conveniently keep ignoring.

Is that the same project that OPEC said they needed to and will keep oil at over $100bbl until it's paid for? Wouldn't that mean Saudis are killing manufacturing jobs in Canada by inflating oil?