Anti_Islam protests victory for extremists?

[Goober]

Should Christian churches be allowed near the Oklahoma bombing site?

Much ado about 'tolerance'

It would depend upon how and what they stood for. If they were for intolerance - No - Interesting article - Lots of info out there about this so called moderate, peace loving, piece of tripe.

But as i stated earlier

Just because you have the right to do something - Does not make it right.

I think it shows a complete disregard for what happened on 911 and will increase tensions.

 

[CDNBear]

The association here is that a subculture of one particular religion is associated with that particular religion.

Yes, for multiple reason, some justifiable, some not.

That the same people should be just as intolerant with other religions, does not justify their intolerance with that particular religion.

Agreed.

In other words, you only reinforce the point that we should not identify any religions with their extremists.

I actually agree, but I can only run with how I personally do things. I personally don't judge a religion solely by the abhorrent actions of some. I weigh that against the reaction by the so called moderates. Then I keep watching and keep analyzing commentary and action of any aspect of said religion as expressed through the media, or common contact.

This can be seen in the progression of my opinion. One of my first posts here, was in defence of Islam. My position has changed over the years.

Rather, we should make an educated decision as to whether the mosque/community center promotes extremism - the same extremism that caused 9/11. Clearly it does not and has nothing to do with that act.

I agree. I don't think it will at all. But in my opinion, it seems like a fitna. That is MY only issue with it. If it gets built as they have stated it will, it won't harm anyone, it simply will annoy some peoples sensitivities.

I wouldn't get caught up in any political groups or politically charged words, and rather deal with the issue at hand. If you get stuck in this ball of yarn, the whole argument just gets thrown off course.

Absolutely, which is why the words "bigot" and "intolerant" get's tossed out right off the bat, to shut down any dissent/complaint or challenge. By the same people that defend the destruction of western culture. Hence the humour I find in this argument.

And while it has caused an initial rift, this clash of ideals will only be a good thing for Western culture. And it won't be too long from now that those same people who are offended will realize it was a silly thing to worry about in the first place.

I know this was posted to me, but if I may...

I actually agree, for the most part. If it's actually a good thing for western culture, then there was nothing silly about any aspect.

Because in the end, sincere sensibilities, are part of what makes someone, someone, the fact that there is a casino sitting on Greasy Grass Creek, is still an affront to MY sensibilities.

 

[mentalfloss]

Fair enough, CDNBear.

The way I see the justification for not bringing this community center to fruition is founded entirely upon emotion. The same kind of emotion one might feel if a loved one was murdered, and you felt that the family of the murderer should be punished for supposedly raising the killer.

It is a natural, human reaction to see this as a vile, decrepit act and to outstretch justice for this act to all parties that the victims might feel are responsible. As natural as that seems, it may be shrouding good judgement.

 

[CDNBear]

Fair enough, CDNBear.

The way I see the justification for not bringing this to fruition is founded entirely upon emotion. The same kind of emotion one might feel if a loved one was murdered, and you felt that the family of the murderer should be punished for supposedly raising the killer.

I agree on the emotion. It is simply my emotions that make me feel that this is a not a classy move. But I fully recognize and still support their right, to place a Mosque, anywhere municipal building codes allow.

But I don't have such a limited control on my emotions, that I would want to exact the proverbial pound of flesh from anyone but the culpable. And I'll leave that at that, we all ready have a thread where I'm discussing culpability.

It is a natural, human reaction to see this as a vile, decrepit act and to outstretch justice for this act to all parties that the victims might feel are responsible.

It takes way to much emotion to apply those words, and I'm really not that emotion to begin with. I really don't find it anything but slightly obnoxious.

As natural as that seems, it may be shrouding good judgement.

If one were to take it to the next level and demand the restriction of their rights? Absolutely. I hope you understand the difference between my opinion of Islam or this Mosque, and what I would actually do. Because my opinion, is actually diametrically apposed to my ethos. And to be quite honest, if the Mosques was actually banned from that sight, my commentary would be completely different. I could just as easily take the opposing position to my present one, without any hard feelings towards myself, lol.

 

[EagleSmack]

Fair enough, CDNBear.

The way I see the justification for not bringing this community center to fruition is founded entirely upon emotion. The same kind of emotion one might feel if a loved one was murdered, and you felt that the family of the murderer should be punished for supposedly raising the killer.

It is a natural, human reaction to see this as a vile, decrepit act and to outstretch justice for this act to all parties that the victims might feel are responsible. As natural as that seems, it may be shrouding good judgement.

Good post. I believe you are not so far off base here. A lot of emotion is involved.

You made me think. Imagine the family of the murderer choosing to live next door to the family of the one he murdered.

Absolutely, which is why the words "bigot" and "intolerant" get's tossed out right off the bat, to shut down any dissent/complaint or challenge. By the same people that defend the destruction of western culture. Hence the humour I find in this argument.

.

These words...bigot, racist, intolerant are tossed around like so much confetti these days. They are used to stop or stifle an argument. To divert attention away from the issue at hand and attempt to shame or shock the person with the opposing view. To immediately put the person on the defensive to try and explain that he/she is not a bigot or racist.

Nowadays these words, which once had meaning, just gets a roll of the eyes and a laugh. The overuse of them, by the PC crowd, has rendered them useless.

 

[mentalfloss]

Good post. I believe you are not so far off base here. A lot of emotion is involved.

You made me think. Imagine the family of the murderer choosing to live next door to the family of the one he murdered.

Yup. I think that is still apt in preserving the metaphor to the issue at hand.

These words...bigot, racist, intolerant are tossed around like so much confetti these days. They are used to stop or stifle an argument. To divert attention away from the issue at hand and attempt to shame or shock the person with the opposing view. To immediately put the person on the defensive to try and explain that he/she is not a bigot or racist.

Nowadays these words, which once had meaning, just gets a roll of the eyes and a laugh. The overuse of them, by the PC crowd, has rendered them useless.

I was listening to an AM talk show (rhymes with Stix-Porky) this morning on the way to work, and I almost laughed my way into another lane. The fact that there still exists this level of Glenn Beck/Alex Jones fanaticism around serious debates is hilarious and frightening.

 

[earth_as_one]

Good post. I believe you are not so far off base here. A lot of emotion is involved.

You made me think. Imagine the family of the murderer choosing to live next door to the family of the one he murdered.



These words...bigot, racist, intolerant are tossed around like so much confetti these days. They are used to stop or stifle an argument. To divert attention away from the issue at hand and attempt to shame or shock the person with the opposing view. To immediately put the person on the defensive to try and explain that he/she is not a bigot or racist.

Nowadays these words, which once had meaning, just gets a roll of the eyes and a laugh. The overuse of them, by the PC crowd, has rendered them useless.

I willing to entertain the idea that some people might be against this Mosque for other reasons besides being nitwits who've allowed their emotions (mostly fear and hatred) to be manipulated into religious intolerance by right wing politicians and their allies in the main stream media.

Perhaps you can offer a motivation for religiously tolerant people being against Muslims being free to build a Mosque at this location?

 

[TenPenny]

Perhaps you can offer a motivation for religiously tolerant people being against Muslims being free to build a Mosque at this location?

Because it is an extremely insensitive thing to do. It shows a willingness to ignore the circumstances of the events that took place there. Surely you can see that this is a poor choice of location for a mosque? Or perhaps you can't see that.

Enough said, carry on. There is no point.

 

[coldstream]

Obama ratcheted up this issue by stating it was one of 'religious freedom', a Constitutional guarantee.. when in fact the only issue here is of municipal zoning.

Almost all cities zone where places of religious worship can be built, for reasons of traffic, residential structure, commercial interests. Many municipalities limit the amount of area that can be dedicated to religious institutions because they are usually free of property tax.

All kinds of qualitative considerations are involved, including the public peace. The fact that so many New Yorkers consider this offensive, however misguided they might be, and the fact that they see it as detracting from a focal point of the city's history are valid reasons to move this mosque a few blocks away.

In its present location it will not in any way realize its goal of promoting understanding, it will do the opposite, of exemplifying a global messianic Islamic mission that will trod over all local sensibilities in the interests of establishing an Islamic world hegemony.

 

[earth_as_one]

Fair enough, CDNBear.

The way I see the justification for not bringing this community center to fruition is founded entirely upon emotion. The same kind of emotion one might feel if a loved one was murdered, and you felt that the family of the murderer should be punished for supposedly raising the killer.

It is a natural, human reaction to see this as a vile, decrepit act and to outstretch justice for this act to all parties that the victims might feel are responsible. As natural as that seems, it may be shrouding good judgement.

I disagree with your analogy. Very few people in the American Muslim community were related to the alleged 9/11 hijackers. I suspect that not a single person involved in this project had anything to do with the 9/11 hijackers. The only thing these people have in common with the 9/11 killers is they are also Muslims.

A more accurate analogy would be if people protested against allowing a black family to move into a house next to a family whose child was recently killed by a black murderer. The only thing the black family has in common with the black murderer, is that they are also black. I'd like to someone argue in support of controlling where black people can live like they argue in support of controlling where Muslims can build Mosques without being labeled a racist bigot.

 

[mentalfloss]

I disagree with your analogy. Very few people in the American Muslim community were related to the alleged 9/11 hijackers. I suspect that not a single person involved in this project had anything to do with the 9/11 hijackers. The only thing these people have in common with the 9/11 killers is they are also Muslims.

A more accurate analogy would be if people protested against allowing a black family to move into a house next to a family whose child was recently killed by a black murderer. The only thing the black family has in common with the black murderer, is that they are also black. I'd like to someone argue in support of controlling where black people can live like they argue in support of controlling where Muslims can build Mosques without being labeled a racist bigot.

Yea, that works too.

 

[TenPenny]

That's a very poor analogy. In your example, the murderer doesn't explain that it is the duty of all black people to kill whites, and the black family moving in next door aren't running a black empowerment education center.

 

[DurkaDurka]

I think American intolerance has established a beach head near the site of the World Trade Center and it seems to be expanding.

Ohh, so these people protesting represent all "Americans" now do they? Note, that you didn't specify protestors, you specified "Americans". If someone were to word a similar story involving Muslims, as "Muslim Intolerance" you would be filing hate speech charges. Nice bit of generalizing there, keep up with your copy & pastes & whatnot.

 

[EagleSmack]

I willing to entertain the idea that some people might be against this Mosque for other reasons besides being nitwits who've allowed their emotions (mostly fear and hatred) to be manipulated into religious intolerance by right wing politicians and their allies in the main stream media.

Fear and hatred? I bet some do hate these muslims and I assure you that some of these muslims are just as hateful. The hatred coming out of many of these Islamic Education Centers is abhoring.

But fear? Hardly. These people have no fear in standing up to them and telling them they are wrong. It is the people that cower before these insensitive and intolerant muslims that are the ones that are truly afraid.

Believe me, this is no accident that this place was selected and the Iman of this mosque has expressed views of intolerance. One needs only to google his name and read some of his writings. He is absolutely free to express his beliefs, but he should not play the victim when he is opposed. Oh, and he is calling himself a victim now. He knows how to manipulate our system that is for sure.

Perhaps you can offer a motivation for religiously tolerant people being against Muslims being free to build a Mosque at this location?

Do you have any suggestions?

ohh, so these people protesting represent all "americans" now do they? Note, that you didn't specify protestors, you specified "americans". If someone were to word a similar story involving muslims, as "muslim intolerance" you would be filing hate speech charges. Nice bit of generalizing there, keep up with your copy & pastes & whatnot.

bravo!

 

[earth_as_one]

Because it is an extremely insensitive thing to do. It shows a willingness to ignore the circumstances of the events that took place there. Surely you can see that this is a poor choice of location for a mosque? Or perhaps you can't see that.

Enough said, carry on. There is no point.

No it isn't insensitive. There is no evidence that the people involved in this Mosque had anything to do with 9/11 or supported 9/11. Insensitive would be making a statement or taking actions in support of 9/11 near that location. For example, putting up a billboard in support of 9/11 would be insensitive. (BTW, that action while insensitive and dumb would protected by freedom of speech laws...)

Muslims who support the 9/11 terrorist attacks represent a very tiny minority. Mainstream Islam and most Muslims do not support the 9/11 attacks. The specific Imam who will head this center is on record as condemning the 9/11 attacks. He has also expressed his disagreement with efforts to blame an entire religion for the actions of a few people allegedly belonging to that religion.
A NATION CHALLENGED - THE IMAM - A NATION CHALLENGED - THE IMAM - New Head of Mosque Wants Proof - NYTimes.com


I can see what's going on. Republicans and their allies in the main stream media are manipulating fear and anger over 9/11 into hatred and prejudice against Islam. The events of 9/11 could just as easily be manipulated into hating and fearing Arabs, people with brown skin, starting an unprovoked war....

Just because intolerant racists and bigots claim 9/11 gives them the right to restrict other people's religious freedoms doesn't mean people who don't share these prejudices are being insensitive when they support the right of a recognized religion to construct a religious building on land they own.

 

[DurkaDurka]

No it isn't insensitive. There is no evidence that the people involved in this Mosque had anything to do with 9/11 or supported 9/11. Insensitive would be making a statement or taking actions in support of 9/11 near that location. For example, putting up a billboard in support of 9/11 would be insensitive. (BTW, that action while insensitive and dumb would protected by freedom of speech laws...)

Muslims who support the 9/11 terrorist attacks represent a very tiny minority. Mainstream Islam and most Muslims do not support the 9/11 attacks. The specific Imam who will head this center is on record as condemning the 9/11 attacks. He has also expressed his disagreement with efforts to blame an entire religion for the actions of a few people allegedly belonging to that religion.
A NATION CHALLENGED - THE IMAM - A NATION CHALLENGED - THE IMAM - New Head of Mosque Wants Proof - NYTimes.com


I can see what's going on. Republicans and their allies in the main stream media are manipulating fear and anger over 9/11 into hatred and prejudice against Islam. The events of 9/11 could just as easily be manipulated into hating and fearing Arabs, people with brown skin, starting an unprovoked war....

Just because intolerant racists and bigots claim 9/11 gives them the right to restrict other people's religious freedoms doesn't mean people who don't share these prejudices are being insensitive when they support the right of a recognized religion to construct a religious building on land they own.

Going with you logic & semantics, since the US is such a hate mongering nation, why would they allow these people to build a mosque there?

 

[DaSleeper]

The specific Imam who will head this center is on record as condemning the 9/11 attacks. .

Right....................


YouTube - FLASHBACK Ground Zero Mosque Imam Claims US is Partly to Blame for 9/11, Says Bin Laden Made in USA

 

[earth_as_one]

eao: I think American intolerance has established a beach head near the site of the World Trade Center and it seems to be expanding.

DD: Ohh, so these people protesting represent all "Americans" now do they? Note, that you didn't specify protestors, you specified "Americans". If someone were to word a similar story involving Muslims, as "Muslim Intolerance" you would be filing hate speech charges. Nice bit of generalizing there, keep up with your copy & pastes & whatnot.

I never claimed all Americans are intolerant racist bigots. Is that how you legitimately interpreted my post?

For the record, let me be more precise. Religiously intolerant bigots and racists protesting against the construction of an Islamic Center in downtown New York have established a beach head of religious intolerance near the site of the WTC and it seems to be expanding. I would not say that all Americans are intolerant bigots and racists, just a significant American minority.

What's scary is that this vocal minority have successfully convinced a majority of Americans that their actions are motivated out of respect for 9/11 victims, rather than their religious bigotry and intolerance.

Regarding your "If someone were to word a similar story involving Muslims...", statement. I have no idea what you are getting at. I'm agnostic and consider all major religions to be equal in validity. I am against any form of religious intolerance or prejudice. I support everyone's right to choose a religion and build places of worship without outside interference. I do not support intolerant bigots and racists trying to restrict religious rights and freedoms. In this case I'm against anti-Islam intolerance and bigotry. If another group of intolerant racists and bigots tried to limit another religious groups religious rights, I'd be against that too.

 

[EagleSmack]

Right....................

Badabing

 

[earth_as_one]

Right....................


YouTube - FLASHBACK Ground Zero Mosque Imam Claims US is Partly to Blame for 9/11, Says Bin Laden Made in USA

Here is a transcript of the interview:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/60minutes.htm

I never read anything in that interview which indicates support for 9/11. The Imam only explains his opinion of why it happened. He claims US foreign policy is directly linked to the rise of anti-American terrorist organizations and as a result linked directly to 9/11. That's hardly an expression of support for 9/11.

BTW, I agree with the Imam's opinion. I came to that conclusion after reading comments made by OBL:
Transcript of Osama Bin Ladin interview by Peter Arnett

BIN LADIN: We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq. The mention of the US reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took place in Qana (in Lebanon). This US government abandoned even humanitarian feelings by these hideous crimes. It transgressed all bounds and behaved in a way not witnessed before by any power or any imperialist power in the world. They should have been considerate that the qibla (Mecca) of the Muslims upheaves the emotion of the entire Muslim World. Due to its subordination to the Jews the arrogance and haughtiness of the US regime has reached, to the extent that they occupied the qibla of the Muslims (Arabia) who are more than a billion in the world today. For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US, because in our religion it is our duty to make jihad so that God's word is the one exalted to the heights and so that we drive the Americans away from all Muslim countries. As for what you asked whether jihad is directed against US soldiers, the civilians in the land of the Two Holy Places (Saudi Arabia, Mecca and Medina) or against the civilians in America, we have focused our declaration on striking at the soldiers in the country of The Two Holy Places. The country of the Two Holy Places has in our religion a peculiarity of its own over the other Muslim countries. In our religion, it is not permissible for any non-Muslim to stay in our country. Therefore, even though American civilians are not targeted in our plan, they must leave. We do not guarantee their safety, because we are in a society of more than a billion Muslims. A reaction might take place as a result of US government's hitting Muslim civilians and executing more than 600 thousand Muslim children in Iraq by preventing food and medicine from reaching them. So, the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians. This is what we say. As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places and its support of its agent regimes who filled our prisons with our best children and scholars. We ask that may God release them....

I do not support the 9/11 attacks. I was horrified and shocked like most reasonable people. I also share the opinion with the Imam in your video link that anti-American terrorists like OBL are reacting to what they perceive as "unjust, criminal and tyrannical" American foreign policies. But that hardly means either of us support OBL or agree with his viewpoint. I agree that American foreign policy is the root cause of a lot of death and destruction in the world and as a result the cause of international anti-American sentiment. But no I disagree that American foreign policies which violently kill innocent civilians justifies violence against innocent American civilians.

MK Gandhi: An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind...

Going with you logic & semantics, since the US is such a hate mongering nation, why would they allow these people to build a mosque there?

The decision makers in this case are out of step with the American majority. In this case, I agree with the decision makers, not the majority of Americans.
Toplines - Mosque - July 19-20, 2010 - Rasmussen Reports