A balanced Canadian approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[PoliticalNick]

Once again I will point out the over-riding fact that belies your protests....

In Operation Cast Lead, of which you speak, the IDF killed 1418 people, according to Palestinian sources.

In Operation Cast Lead, roughly one half of all Palestinian dead were militants: the operation crippled the Hamas military wing, and that according to HAMAS.

In modern conflict, the average ration of civilian:military death is 10:1 .

In other words, in a concerted attack on the most densely populated place on earth, against an enemy that routinely hides among the people, the IDF scored a huge success while keeping civilian casualties to ONE TENTH the average in modern military operations.

That, my friend, is not atrocity, it is humane and responsible action.

1418 *0.5 =709. So it was just fine to kill 709 innocent people and wound may women and chilren. How can you actually believe this is ok.

I suppose the 10:1 ratio doesn't include Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq because it was a far different # in those cases. So where exactly does this 10:1 come from, maybe you got it backwards and its 10 civilians for every soldier, that sounds far more believeable to me when your bombing cities all the time.

Anyway, the only real atrocity going on with the Arab/Israeli conflict is the continued support of Israel by western powers who seem to think it is their best foothold in the ME. Israel did not exist until 1948 and only then because western powers dictated it would. The League of Nations took huge chunks of Syria and Jordan against their wishes and established the state of Israel. What did they think would happen, they knew it would be continual conflct and thus allow them to keep troops in the region and gather their oil.

It is time to pull all western support from Israel, pull all western troops from the entire region, let them fight it out amongst themselves and then establish diplomacy with whoever is left when the smoke clears.

 

[petros]

BTW, I'm not a neocon.

Not even close.

In fact, I am a liberal, with libertarian leanings......kinda like a heavily-armed Mohatma Gandhi.

Montana awaits!

 

[earth_as_one]

Once again I will point out the over-riding fact that belies your protests....

In Operation Cast Lead, of which you speak, the IDF killed 1418 people, according to Palestinian sources.

In Operation Cast Lead, roughly one half of all Palestinian dead were militants: the operation crippled the Hamas military wing, and that according to HAMAS.

In modern conflict, the average ration of civilian:military death is 10:1 .

In other words, in a concerted attack on the most densely populated place on earth, against an enemy that routinely hides among the people, the IDF scored a huge success while keeping civilian casualties to ONE TENTH the average in modern military operations.

That, my friend, is not atrocity, it is humane and responsible action.

I noticed you couldn't bring yourself to condemn a single Israeli war crime. If its just about numbers and not the way people are killed, then you must support Palestinian militants firing rockets at Israel since they rarely kill anyone. The number of Israeli killed by Palestinians is far lower than the other way around.

I guess you must support Colonel Gadhafi too. So far this war criminals hasn't killed nearly as many civilians as Israel and he put mercenaries on roof tops to shoot unarmed civilians.

Cast lead was only one battle. Lets look at how many people have died so that God's chosen people could redeem the land without people for the people without land:

Since some of the fatalities died of their injuries days, weeks and sometimes months after they were hurt, choosing the view affects the distribution of data.

Data , 29.9.2000-31.1.2011​

Occupied Territories

Israel​

Gaza StripWest BankTotal

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces​

45021831633369

Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians​

446502

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians​

39207246497

Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians​

10514725290

Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians​

1071739

Foreign citizens killed by Israeli security forces​

66120

Palestinians killed by Palestinians​

5291356640

Palestinians executed by the Palestinian Authority​

82100

Palestinians executed by the Hamas Government​

50http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=39&region=TER0

Additional data (included in previous table)​

Occupied Territories

Israel​

Gaza StripWest BankTotal

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces​

99032513153

Israeli minors killed by Palestinians​

4364084

Palestinians killed during the course of a targeted killing​

305
107
412​

0

Palestinians who were the object of a targeted killing​

160822420

Palestinians killed by Palestinians for suspected collaboration with Israel​

251091340

Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities and were killed by Israeli security forces ( not including the objects of targeted killings).​

214085529955

Palestinians who were killed by Israeli security forces and it is not known if they were taking part in the hostilities​

2794146934

Palestinians who took part in the hostilities and were killed by Israeli security forces​

1675480215560

Palestinian police officers who were killed inside police stations​

24802480

Clarifications

Fatalities since operation "Cast Lead"

Fatalities during operation "Cast Lead"

Fatalities since the outbreak of the second intifada and until operation "Cast Lead"

First Intifada Tables

More statistics
B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities

 

[petros]

45 Billion sounds a little high.

 

[PoliticalNick]

The nubers are all moved together somehow, scroll over them and you will see where there should have been breaks.IE 4502 /1831/ 6333/ 69

 

[DaSleeper]

To some in this forum, and we all know who they are, since I have seen endless posting about it since at least 2006......the only option that would satisfy them is the complete obliteration of the state of Israel.
Thet pretend to talk around it, camouflage it as debate, and put up a nice false front of fair play, but anyone with a bit of common sense can read through the bullshyte....

 

[petros]

They? Your own personal "chosen ones"?

I have the perfect solution.

Israel goes by what the entire planet agreed was fair in 1967 and when Jesus comes back we'll let him decide who gets what.

How does that sound?

 

[PoliticalNick]

To some in this forum, and we all know who they are, since I have seen endless posting about it since at least 2006......the only option that would satisfy them is the complete obliteration of the state of Israel.
Thet pretend to talk around it, camouflage it as debate, and put up a nice false front of fair play, but anyone with a bit of common sense can read through the bullshyte....

I don't know who "they" might be but I (even with my Jewish heritage) would agree to seeing Israel cease to exist. It was formed by foreign powers against the will of those who already had the land and is therfore not legitimate. It has been a constant cause of conflict in the region and will be kept as a cause of conflict to the benefit of the foreign powers who wish to have a reason for their presence in the region other than control of the oil...which is the truthful reason for the western presence. This was all planned and formulated by the league of nations in 1946-47.

 

[darkbeaver]

To some in this forum, and we all know who they are, since I have seen endless posting about it since at least 2006......the only option that would satisfy them is the complete obliteration of the state of Israel.
Thet pretend to talk around it, camouflage it as debate, and put up a nice false front of fair play, but anyone with a bit of common sense can read through the bullshyte....

I don't pretend, fornicate Israel. There is no need to obliterate Israel it will simply and inevitably disappear under Palestine and only those with no common sense will miss it for a second.

 

[earth_as_one]

The nubers are all moved together somehow, scroll over them and you will see where there should have been breaks.IE 4502 /1831/ 6333/ 69

Ooops the table looked fine when I posted it. Its all messed up.

Here is the link to the source:
B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities

 

[petros]

They could have had 666 - 23 in 2006 but one recovered?

 

[earth_as_one]

I don't know who "they" might be but I (even with my Jewish heritage) would agree to seeing Israel cease to exist. It was formed by foreign powers against the will of those who already had the land and is therfore not legitimate. It has been a constant cause of conflict in the region and will be kept as a cause of conflict to the benefit of the foreign powers who wish to have a reason for their presence in the region other than control of the oil...which is the truthful reason for the western presence. This was all planned and formulated by the league of nations in 1946-47.

I'd like to see the "Zionist" state of Israel reform and become a free and fair democracy where everyone has the same rights regardless of race or religion. I disagree with classifying people based on race, religion... Its not working in Israel. It didn't work in Apartheid South Africa.

 

[petros]

Those look like football scores with Hamilton being the blue.

 

[Colpy]

Ooops the table looked fine when I posted it. Its all messed up.

Here is the link to the source:
B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities

Hmmmm...and notice how the death toll fell after the Israelis gave them that much-deserved spanking in 2008-09. Notice how when the Palestinians stop killing (because their militant wing has been smashed), that the Israelis stop killing. And NOT the other way around.

this chart proves two things:

1. there can be peace, but it has to be through superior Israeli firepower.

2. The Palestinians are not stupid........just Hamas is crazy.

 

[petros]

Hmmmm...and notice how the death toll fell after the Israelis gave them that much-deserved spanking in 2008-09.

No, more like the rest of the world said enough is enough after Cast Lead.

 

[earth_as_one]

I think Hamas are nuts too.

But they never violated the 2008 ceasefire:
YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk

Jimmy Carter Editorial: An Unnecessary War

No, more like the rest of the world said enough is enough after Cast Lead.

I suspect you are right. But if you follow the news, you'll see that we are headed back into another battle.
Gulf Times ? Qatar?s top-selling English daily newspaper - Gulf/Arab World

 

[PoliticalNick]

Hmmmm...and notice how the death toll fell after the Israelis gave them that much-deserved spanking in 2008-09. Notice how when the Palestinians stop killing (because their militant wing has been smashed), that the Israelis stop killing. And NOT the other way around.

this chart proves two things:

1. there can be peace, but it has to be through superior Israeli firepower.

2. The Palestinians are not stupid........just Hamas is crazy.

Do you even see the disparity in these numbers. Are you completely blind to it by choice or stupidity?

In response to your 2 points
1. There will be no peace as long as the invaders (Israelis) are still believing they have a right to rule over the Palestinians

2. The Israelis are stupid and crazy.

 

[earth_as_one]

Israelis in general are normal people. Most just want to live in peace, work, get married, raise a family... just like everyone else. The Palestinians are no different. Its the extremists on both sides who are the problem, not the average person.

Classifying millions of people like they are a single unified group makes it easy for the extremists to fool the average person into supporting war and other atrocities.

I suggest you check out this Israeli website:
B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

 

[EagleSmack]

Do you even see the disparity in these numbers. Are you completely blind to it by choice or stupidity?

In response to your 2 points
1. There will be no peace as long as the invaders (Israelis) are still believing they have a right to rule over the Palestinians

2. The Israelis are stupid and crazy.

He actually called himself a nice person.

Classifying millions of people like they are a single unified group makes it easy for the extremists to fool the average person into supporting war and other atrocities.

I doubt he cares. He would actually want the state of Israel to cease to exist.

 

[DaSleeper]

What I see on that chart, is that the palestinian aim is not too good and that the Israeli aim is much better...so I guess that according to some, If someone is shooting in my direction, and misses most of the time....I'm the bad guy if I shoot back.......got it:lol: