Israel...

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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C,

I've seen that propaganda too. I think its ugly and no I don't agree with it. I certainly don't support it. I also don't support many other things Hamas and Hezbollah do or have done.

Rather than posting assertions of what you think people like me support, why don't post stuff and ask if I support it or not. Then you can quote me.

I'd like to hear people comment about this case:

Not guilty.

The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinain schoolgirl

· Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
· Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
The Guardian,
Wednesday November 16 2005

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

The manner of Iman's killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was "scared to death", made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.

After the verdict, Iman's father, Samir al-Hams, said the army never intended to hold the soldier accountable.

"They did not charge him with Iman's murder, only with small offences, and now they say he is innocent of those even though he shot my daughter so many times," he said. "This was the cold-blooded murder of a girl. The soldier murdered her once and the court has murdered her again. What is the message? They are telling their soldiers to kill Palestinian children."...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

You can read about the evidence in this case yourself through the link.

What C posted above probably does have an effect on children. The real world as illuminated by the case I posted probably has a much greater effect....

Anyone care to make some predictions about the longterm consequences???
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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C,

I've seen that propaganda too. I think its ugly and no I don't agree with it. I certainly don't support it. I also don't support many other things Hamas and Hezbollah do or have done.

Rather than posting assertions of what you think people like me support, why don't post stuff and ask if I support it or not. Then you can quote me.

I'd like to hear people comment about this case:



You can read about the evidence in this case yourself through the link.

What C posted above probably does have an effect on children. The real world as illuminated by the case I posted probably has a much greater effect....

Anyone care to make some predictions about the longterm consequences???


Its hard to note based on not being there if shooting that girl was justified or not.

Palestinian use child bombers in the 14-15 year age range quite frequently. Earlier that year a young teenage boy tried to blow up a few soldiers in a suicide run.

Its easy to cast judgement, but why is a palestinian child wandering near an army checkpoint? Its not like the checkpoints are a new occurance they have been their all the kids lives and they would have been told to stay away from them since they were born.

If you were that soldier, and earlier that year teenage suicide bombers had been hitting checkpoints would you fire?

If the option is most likely between you shooting the child or the child blowing herself up and taking 6 or 7 people with her, what would you do?



There is a reason child soldiers are banned, because it leads to people having to shoot children who then have to be considered potential threats.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Prophecy of retribution: The 1907 writings of one traveller to Palestine vividly describe the roots of the region's enmity
David Goldberg
Guardian
Thu, 29 May 2008 15:12 EDT








©Unknown The 60th anniversary of the state of Israel provoked a slew of media coverage, predominantly focused on the intractable Israel-Palestine conflict. As a consequence of the 1948 war of independence (for Arabs the nakba, or catastrophe), up to 750,000 Palestinians were dispossessed. Their continuing homelessness, so the standard version goes, has been the cause of all subsequent wars, Arab terrorism, Israeli incursions and civilian casualties.
That is grim enough, but unfortunately the root of the enmity goes back even further, to the first small-scale Zionist immigration to Palestine in the 1880s. The fact is that never in history has one people willingly invited another into its territory. The unresolved dilemma at the heart of Zionism has been how to respond to that unpalatable truth and reach an accommodation with the native Arab population.
While Jewish pioneers were few, it could be evaded. Writing in 1907, when there were about 10,000 settlers, Isaac Epstein, a Russian-born teacher who had come to Palestine in 1886, called attitudes towards the Arabs "the hidden question". He criticised the leaders of the Zionist movement who engaged in politics while ignoring that "there resides in our treasured land an entire people which has clung to it for hundreds of years ... The Arab, like all other men, is strongly attached to his homeland".
Epstein, like so many of his background, was a disciple of Achad Ha'am - "One of the People", the pen name of Asher Ginsberg - the intellectual doyen of Russian Jewry and mentor to a galaxy of talented younger admirers. He was, wrote the poet Chaim Nachman Bialik, the star around which the lesser planets revolved. He was also the bitter rival and implacable critic of Theodor Herzl, the feted crowd-pleaser who announced after his starring role at the first Zionist Congress in 1897: "At Basel I founded the Jewish state." Ha'am noted, "At Basel I sat solitary among my friends, like a mourner at a wedding feast."
In 1891, Ha'am had made his first visit to the Jewish settlements in Palestine. It resulted in an important essay, The Truth from the Land of Israel. What distinguished his report from the gushing accounts of other Jewish visitors was the sober realism with which he noted the many problems. High among them was the existence of an indigenous population. "We tend to believe abroad that Palestine is nowadays almost completely deserted, an uncultivated wilderness, and anyone can come there and buy as much land as his heart desires. But in reality this is not the case. It is difficult to find anywhere in the country Arab land which lies fallow."
Ha'am makes short work of the argument that lesser breeds can be duped about Zionist intentions and bought off with the benefits of colonialism. "The Arab, like all Semites, has a sharp mind and is full of cunning ... [They] understand very well what we want and what we do in the country, but ... at present they do not see any danger for themselves or their future in what we are doing and therefore are trying to turn to their advantage these new guests ... But when the day will come in which the life of our people in the Land of Israel will develop to such a degree that they will push aside the local population by little or by much, then it will not easily give up its place."
In contrast, Herzl has the Arab spokesman in his utopian novel Altneuland (Old-new land) proclaim that Jewish settlement had been a blessing. Landowners have gained from higher prices, peasants from regular employment and welfare benefits. "The Jews have made us prosperous, why should we be angry with them? They live with us as brothers, why should we not love them?"
Ha'am has no truck with such wishful thinking. The behaviour of settlers disturbed him. They had not learned from experience as a minority, but, like a slave who has become king, "behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, infringe upon their boundaries, hit them shamefully without reason, and even brag about it". The Arab did indeed respect strength, but only when the other side used it justly. When his opponent's actions were unjust and oppressive, then "he may keep his anger to himself for a time ... but in the long run he will prove to be vengeful and full of retribution". Prophetic words.
In 1913, after a correspondent had complained of the contemptuous attitude of settlers and the Zionist Organisation's Palestine Office, Ha'am wrote back, "When I realise that our brethren may be morally capable of treating another people in this fashion and of crudely abusing what is sacred to them, then I cannot but reflect: if such is the situation now, how shall we treat others if one day we actually become the rulers of Palestine?"
·Dr David J Goldberg is emeritus rabbi of The Liberal Jewish Synagogue, London
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Hi, folks... it is very late, I will only drop the link for now and come back to it tomorrow. By all means... feel free to have a look. It's a good article and perhaps hasn't been posted here yet.

The Canada-Israel "Public Security" Agreement
Ottawa & Tel Aviv collaborate in counter-terrorism & Homeland security


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=8530
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Edit:
This article doesn't fit in with the current debate so, I will leave this link alone for now.
 
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einmensch

Electoral Member
Mar 1, 2008
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IDF have been shooting children on a regular basis. Non Jews are animals -so what's the big deal?http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/m...est_we_forget.html#genocide_horror_atrocities

Early in the morning of November 22, five Palestinian children were blown to pieces by an Israeli mine or bomb as they headed to school in Khan Younis. The children were 6 to 14 years-of-age, all from the Al Astel family. It is unclear if the explosion was set off by the children tripping over or kicking the device, or via remote control

Children Killed in Conflict

Since September 2000, approximately 883 Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories. The majority of these children were shot and killed by the Israeli military. However, Israeli settlers have also shot and killed Palestinian children.
124 Palestinian children were killed in 2006, more than twice the number killed the previous year. From January–July 2007, 31 children were killed. The vast majority of child deaths in Palestine are caused by live ammunition shots to the head or chest, generally indicative of an Israeli “shoot to kill” policy.
On July 4th 2007 Israeli troops shot and killed a 15-year-old Palestinian boy in Hebron. Ahmad Abed Al-Muhsin Skafi was shot 4 times in his upper torso. Israeli troops then allowed a military dog to maul the boy’s dead body, tearing his intestines from his stomach and mutilating his right hand.
20,000 Palestinian children have been injured since September 2000. Almost 1,500 of them sustained life-long disabilities.

The children were gunned down by Israeli soldiers from a Jewish guard tower as they were playing. Doctors said the dead Palestinian boy was shot in the head
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Every soldier in every army is trained to shoot to kill,so your post is redundant. Shooting to wound an opponent only happens in the movies.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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IDF have been shooting children on a regular basis. Non Jews are animals -so what's the big deal?http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/m...est_we_forget.html#genocide_horror_atrocities

Early in the morning of November 22, five Palestinian children were blown to pieces by an Israeli mine or bomb as they headed to school in Khan Younis. The children were 6 to 14 years-of-age, all from the Al Astel family. It is unclear if the explosion was set off by the children tripping over or kicking the device, or via remote control

Children Killed in Conflict

Since September 2000, approximately 883 Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories. The majority of these children were shot and killed by the Israeli military. However, Israeli settlers have also shot and killed Palestinian children.
124 Palestinian children were killed in 2006, more than twice the number killed the previous year. From January–July 2007, 31 children were killed. The vast majority of child deaths in Palestine are caused by live ammunition shots to the head or chest, generally indicative of an Israeli “shoot to kill” policy.
On July 4th 2007 Israeli troops shot and killed a 15-year-old Palestinian boy in Hebron. Ahmad Abed Al-Muhsin Skafi was shot 4 times in his upper torso. Israeli troops then allowed a military dog to maul the boy’s dead body, tearing his intestines from his stomach and mutilating his right hand.
20,000 Palestinian children have been injured since September 2000. Almost 1,500 of them sustained life-long disabilities.

The children were gunned down by Israeli soldiers from a Jewish guard tower as they were playing. Doctors said the dead Palestinian boy was shot in the head

Define "children". I agree this is a tragedy, but I'm not big on the revelation that Palestinian children are killed when their parents send them out to stone Israeli troops, and then get paid when they are injured or killed.

I say that is abuse.

A 15 year old is not a child in the eyes of your pals in Palestine, in fact Palestinian terrorists would have used him as a suicide bomber in a second.............

This is REAL child abuse.
http://1389blog.com/2008/02/12/evil-in-a-cute-cuddly-package-from-hamas/

A little less of that from your buddies in Hamas, and the death rate among children might go down...........

And perhaps you could explain the fatwas that allow the murder of Jewish babies because they will grow up to be Israeli soldiers.......
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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C,

I've seen that propaganda too. I think its ugly and no I don't agree with it. I certainly don't support it. I also don't support many other things Hamas and Hezbollah do or have done.

Rather than posting assertions of what you think people like me support, why don't post stuff and ask if I support it or not. Then you can quote me.

I'd like to hear people comment about this case:



You can read about the evidence in this case yourself through the link.

What C posted above probably does have an effect on children. The real world as illuminated by the case I posted probably has a much greater effect....

Anyone care to make some predictions about the longterm consequences???

Don't take this too personally EAO, but the problem I have with you and others is your pretense of neutrality.

Face it, EAO, you have made up your mind which side you support in this conflict.....

That is OK, I know which side I support.....but I am consistently asked to excuse or explain Israeli behaviour because I support them.

I see no reason to spare you the same type of interogation simply because you make some facile claim of neutrality or possession of the high ground.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Sorry Colpy your message doesn't wash.

You target anyone who questions the motivation and the dynamic of the Israeli government and dismiss any and all accountability to principle when it comes to atrocities committed by Jews...

You then turn around and heap scorn and disdain on the Chinese government for "murdering" seventy million people....

Do me a favor.... run around your home and tell me how many baubles and trinkets you have that are made in China and how many you have that are made in Palestine......
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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Its hard to note based on not being there if shooting that girl was justified or not.

Palestinian use child bombers in the 14-15 year age range quite frequently. Earlier that year a young teenage boy tried to blow up a few soldiers in a suicide run.

Its easy to cast judgement, but why is a palestinian child wandering near an army checkpoint? Its not like the checkpoints are a new occurance they have been their all the kids lives and they would have been told to stay away from them since they were born.

If you were that soldier, and earlier that year teenage suicide bombers had been hitting checkpoints would you fire?

If the option is most likely between you shooting the child or the child blowing herself up and taking 6 or 7 people with her, what would you do?



There is a reason child soldiers are banned, because it leads to people having to shoot children who then have to be considered potential threats.

I think this statement is pretty clear about why the IDF soldier shot this girl:

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

The girl wandered into her neighborhood kill zone and was shot at. She was running away when she was wounded and immobilized. As she lay there wounded, IDF snipers shot up her book bag proving it was not a bomb. That's when the IDF soldier walked up to her and emptied his clip into her.

These facts are confirmed by the other IDF soldiers and Palestinians who witnessed the incident. Its pretty clear the IDF soldier knew the girl was harmless when he killed her.

Does it make sense that he would stand next to the girl if he thought she was a suicide bomber? If he thought the girl was a child soldier, wouldn't capturing her alive for interrogation purposes be more useful than killing her? If the soldier thought he was at risk of attack, would he fire all his remaining bullets into her lifeless body, effectively disarming himself?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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That statement doesn't explain anything actually.

A three year old is full capable of being strapped with explosives, and Palestinian forces already use children as living munitions.

Any military in the world is entitled to use lethal force on children once their opponents begin using children as soldiers.

Thats why child soldiers are banned. Cause and effect.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Don't take this too personally EAO, but the problem I have with you and others is your pretense of neutrality.

Face it, EAO, you have made up your mind which side you support in this conflict.....

That is OK, I know which side I support.....but I am consistently asked to excuse or explain Israeli behaviour because I support them.

I see no reason to spare you the same type of interogation simply because you make some facile claim of neutrality or possession of the high ground.

I am not neutral. I have choosen sides. I choose the side of innocent civilians caught in the cross fire.

Unlike you, I don't support war crimes and crimes against humanity commited by Israel and the US. I also don't support war crimes or crimes against humanity committed by the adversaries of Israel and the US. I don't say these war crimes are justifiable and these ones aren't.

If it involves the gratuitous and wanton killing of innocent civilians, I'm against it, regardless of race, religion, nationality.... That's not being neutral. That's choosing a side.

I'm also against discrimination, ethnic cleasning and genocide. That why I'm against what happened to Jews in Europe until the end of WW II as well as the Nakba. I'm also against the genocide in Rwanda and Dafur... Once you start looking at conflicts from the viewpoint of innocent civilians, its pretty easy to identify war crimes and crimes against humanity.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Thats still not neutrality though.

Your views have many aspects that aren't in relation to the best interests of those human beings involved, but the best interests of those peoples Ideals involved.

Ie, It would be better for the "refugees" of Israels creation to be treated like every other refugee (aka not a refugee unless they actually were part of the event, not a descendant), and put pressure on the countries who are running them as aparathied second class citizens to give them full rights to other people born in their country. That is what is best for them.

that is not best for their ideals of pan-arab nationalism, so they engage in a self-destructive behaviour pattern, which you seem to very much endorse.

Its not people in that case, its an ideal.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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That's right I'm not neutral. I'm on the side of innocent victims. I'm on the side of freedom and justice. People who support Israel as it exists today knowingly or unknowingly oppose these things.


Because of the west's unconditional support of Israel, millions of innocent people suffer.

Here in Canada, everyone is free to pursue their ideals as long as it doesn't trample the ability of others to pursue their ideals. I have a typical Canadian "Don't piss on my boots" philosophy.

Jews want to return to the holylands? Good for them. But don't start a war to ethnically cleanse the holylands of non-Jews. You are pissing on someone's boots.

Buy a home in the holylands and live in it. Good for you. Show up with guns and force the owners out at gun point? Sorry I have a problem with that. You are pissing on someone's boots

I have no problem condemning suicide bombers who target innocent civilians. Its a war crime to target innocent civilians, even Israeli civilians. I don't recognize a difference between one group of civilians or another.

But people who unconditionally support what Israel does, do differentiate. I don't believe attacking civilians is ever justified. I admit I don't post information very often about attacks on Israeli civilians. But's that because it doesn't happen very often and when it does our news adequately informs everyone. What's the point of posting stuff people already know?

I endorse freedom and justice, not oppression and injustice.

I also believe that current longterm trends will lead inevitably to the end of Israel as it exists today. One way or another. That status quo is unsustainable.

I'm not in favor of harming a single Israeli civilian. I post what I do, because I believe the current path leads to a nuclear holocaust. Granting Palestinians freedom and justice is the only path I see which avoids mutual annihilation.

Jews will always live in the holylands. What this fight is really about is whether the holylands will be preserved as they are or turned into radioactive craters. I am against the radio active craters option.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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I admit I don't post information very often about attacks on Israeli civilians. But's that because it doesn't happen very often and when it does our news adequately informs everyone. What's the point of posting stuff people already know?

OK I'll take up that challenge. Since it happens pretty much every day, and you seem to think it doesn't happen very often, then either you have a very high standard of what constitutes "often", or you're very wrong about the news adequately informing everyone.

Lets start with the past week:

The man killed Thursday morning by a Palestinian mortar shell attack has been identified as 51-year-old Amnon Rosenberg of Kibbutz Nirim. Rosenberg, a member of the kibbutz since 1982, is survived by a wife, Tali, and three children – Dor, Eldar and Yarden.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3552287,00.html

The rocket hit the Gaza side of the crossing, wounding a Palestinian worker there, Palestinian doctors said.
Government spokesman David Baker said Wednesday's attack showed terrorist groups' "total disregard for the well-being of the Palestinian people."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212041475747&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Five people sustained shrapnel wounds after a rocket crashed into a community in the Eshkol Regional Council on Tuesday afternoon.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3551247,00.html

Kassam rocket strikes open area in western Negev; no wounded reported
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212041461813&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

A foreign worker from Thailand sustained moderate injuries to his hand Saturday when a Qassam rocket fired from northern Gaza struck a chicken coop in a moshav located within the Eshkol Regional Council's limits. Another man was lightly injured in the attack.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3550068,00.html

Rockets, mortar shell fired from Strip riddle Gaza vicinity communities as local synagogue suffers near miss. Islamic Jihad claims responsibility
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3549575,00.html

A Kassam rocket fired from Gaza hit a house in the Sha'ar Hanegev region Thursday afternoon. The residents were not at home at the time of impact, and although the rocket failed to explode, an exterior wall was damaged.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212041427810&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Two mortar shells fired from Gaza landed in the Ashkelon Beach region on Friday morning.
One of the shells made a hole in a road while the other landed near a group of greenhouses, causing no damage.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212041433866&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Earth As One, you are still supporting human suffernig of millions by supporting the Palestinian Cause unquestionabley.

The best thing for Palestinians is to be treated like regular people, and go become part of the nations they are born in. Period.

The west bank should go back to Jordan, as the West bank is not a viable state (it couldn't support itself). It would be better off as part of Jordan than it would as an independant state.

Supporting the idea of a Palestinian state is putting an ideal and nationalist goal above human suffering.

If your going to do that, then why not back Israel, at least Israel protects minorities and allows them to be part of the government.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
Earth As One, you are still supporting human suffernig of millions by supporting the Palestinian Cause unquestionabley.

The best thing for Palestinians is to be treated like regular people, and go become part of the nations they are born in. Period.

The west bank should go back to Jordan, as the West bank is not a viable state (it couldn't support itself). It would be better off as part of Jordan than it would as an independant state.

Supporting the idea of a Palestinian state is putting an ideal and nationalist goal above human suffering.

If your going to do that, then why not back Israel, at least Israel protects minorities and allows them to be part of the government.

Seems to me the logic was as sound about Sudetenland, Rhineland and Austria. Never again, eh? Master race or Chosen ones?... Warsaw or Gaza? Jackboots are jackboots whether the wearer's circumsized or not. Palestinian or partisan.... Explain the difference without the propaganda.
 
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Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Seems to me the logic was as sound about Sudetenland, Rhineland and Austria. Never again, eh? Master race or Chosen ones?... Warsaw or Gaza? Jackboots are jackboots whether the wearer's circumsized or not. Palestinian or partisan.... Explain the difference without the propaganda.

What are you talking about?

The Israelis would hand the West Bank back to Jordan in a millisecond. Good riddance.

You do know that the West Bank was originally part of Jordan, and that nation has refused to negotiate its return?

You see, King Hussein has already had a little experience of refugee politics....the PLO and Fatah to be exact, whom he forcibly removed from the nation in the early 70s. They went to the rich, peaceful, beautiful nation of Lebanon.........take a look at THAT spot!

Likewise the Gaza Strip and Egypt...........Egypt doesn't WANT it back, as it is run by Islamist loonies, and Egypt has enough of those.

Both nations would much rather let Israel deal with them.....
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
Now Israel pays the price for its greed and its need to be king of the world. Nazi Germany's was death. I'd say they're getting a bargain....

Again, what makes Israeli belligerance any better than the greed of tyrants throughout time? Is there a Hebrew (or Yiddish) word for compromise? Perhaps if they were the first to offer a SINCERE hand of friendship?